Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.

Davy said:

There you go again pushing that same old falsehood. They taught you well.

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Prove it wrong. Prove that Ezra didn't call the returning remnant of his Jews 9 times and Israel 40 times. If they are only the two tribes you mention, why then are they called all Israel?

Prove it wrong. Prove that Nehemiah didn't call the returning remanant of his Jews 11 times and Israel 22 times. Same thing here.

Prove it wrong. That there were several instances many from the northern tribes migrating southward as the northern kingdom got worse and joined with the southern kingdom. 2 Chronicles 11, 31, etc.

And regarding the prophecy of Isaiah 48 talking about the Babylonian exile, the Lord is addressing the entire house of Jacob (all the tribes).

No, the lie is that there were 10 lost tribes. That get shot down quick just in the NT. There are 4 tribes evidences.... Judah, Levi, Benjamin, and Asher (a northern tribe). Kinda hard to make the case that 10 are lost. And the archeological evidence shows that King Sargon of Assyria only deported about 28,000 of the northern kingdom and 50 chariots. But it is estimated that there were 400,000+ in the northern kingdom.

Copperhead said:

Yet again, you show your ignorance of history. Many early church writings of the first 4 centuries also exhibit pre-trib removal of the righteous teachings. Especially so the sermons of Ephraim.

Virtually all the translations of the scripture, in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, they translated the passage as "departure", "the departure", Departing, etc instead of falling away. The context is our gathering to the Lord (verse 1) not our falling away or apostasy from the Lord. Even the Latin Vulgate (4th Century), the word used in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is dicessio which means a physical, spatial departure not a doctrinal departure.

As Dr. Andy Woods (Lawyer, Theologian, Greek Scholar) has stated, 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is pre-trib rapture..... game, set, match.

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There are no... previous examples in Church history of a teaching of a pre-trib rapture. Pre-trib scholars today saying there is evidence are playing revisionism of history:

https://www.preteristarchive.com/dEmEnTiA/2001_macpherson_deceiving.html

Copperhead said:

Really? When was the Davidic covenant given before the Torah? Seems that it was given in 2 Samuel 7, which as best I can tell, was a considerable time after the Torah was given.

I wouldn't go jumping too fast before getting your facts straight. It weakens your case.

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Yes--Moses received the Ten Commandments and built the Ark of the Covenant around 1491 B.C. Kind David lived from 907 B.C. to 837 B.C. For those too ignorant to figure it out--David lived about 600 years AFTER Moses wrote down the first five books--Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. Moses was responsible for collecting and completing the Torah (the first five books of the Tanakh--the Hebrew Scriptures).

Copperhead said:

Prove it wrong. Prove that Ezra didn't call the returning remnant of his Jews 9 times and Israel 40 times. If they are only the two tribes you mention, why then are they called all Israel?

Prove it wrong. Prove that Nehemiah didn't call the returning remanant of his Jews 11 times and Israel 22 times. Same thing here.

Prove it wrong. That there were several instances many from the northern tribes migrating southward as the northern kingdom got worse and joined with the southern kingdom. 2 Chronicles 11, 31, etc.

And regarding the prophecy of Isaiah 48 talking about the Babylonian exile, the Lord is addressing the entire house of Jacob (all the tribes).

No, the lie is that there were 10 lost tribes. That get shot down quick just in the NT. There are 4 tribes evidences.... Judah, Levi, Benjamin, and Asher (a northern tribe). Kinda hard to make the case that 10 are lost. And the archeological evidence shows that King Sargon of Assyria only deported about 28,000 of the northern kingdom and 50 chariots. But it is estimated that there were 400,000+ in the northern kingdom.

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Yes--even though they are referred to as the "Ten Lost Tribes" they weren't exactly "lost" in anything but a spiritual way. God knows exactly who they are and where they are. The Samaritan woman at the well traced her ancestry to Jacob/Israel (John 4:12) but they had long since fallen away from worshiping at the Temple and the Jews despised the Samaritans--considering them "half-breeds" and even "dogs" for their immoral habits. So, in effect, when Jesus said that He had been sent only to the "lost sheep of Israel" (Matthew 15:24), this woman was a prime example--as well as the bulk of the Jews who had been led astray by the "blind guides" of Judaism. Jesus repeatedly denounced the Jewish religious authorities because they were ignorant of the plan of salvation.

Davy said:

There are no... previous examples in Church history of a teaching of a pre-trib rapture. Pre-trib scholars today saying there is evidence are playing revisionism of history:

https://www.preteristarchive.com/dEmEnTiA/2001_macpherson_deceiving.html

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Revisionist history? The preterists have real lock on that regarding dating of Revelation. If there ever was revisionist history, that is it. Ireaneous, a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John the Apostle stated categorically that Revelation was written during the time of the emperor Domitian which puts it in the 90's AD. Yet preterists will cling to the all was fulfilled in 70AD. They would prefer to not be burdened with the facts.

Copperhead said:

Really? When was the Davidic covenant given before the Torah? Seems that it was given in 2 Samuel 7, which as best I can tell, was a considerable time after the Torah was given.

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If David's throne was of the law, then it would have perished with the old covenant, and not promised to Jesus Christ per the New Covenant. Thus David's throne was ultimately intended for the New Covenant, and is thus eternally connected to God's Promise by Faith given to Abraham. Don't you remember when the children of Israel wanted a fleshy king like the nations around them, and it hurt God's feelings because He was their king? Use your brain.

I wouldn't go jumping too fast before getting your facts straight. It weakens your case.

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Ah..., you stuck your foot in your mouth...

Gen 17:4-6
4 As for Me, behold, My covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
KJV

That was 430 years PRIOR to the law according to Apostle Paul when God gave Abram that Promise (Gal.3).

Copperhead said:

That is true. But the covenant with Israel was a national, earthly covenant. The covenant the redeemed are a part of is not in the same league.

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The New Covenant was by Faith, and contains the promises given Abraham, which includes the promises of inheritance:

Gal 3:18
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
KJV

Gal 3:28-29
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV

You're still wanting to believe in Salvation by flesh, using blood birth, when all along God's Promise to Abraham was by FAITH (i.e., the New Covenant).

Gal 3:21-22
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
KJV

Jeremiah 31:31-32 Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.

​

The covenant is with the Hebrew people just like the Sinai covenant was.

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No, the New Covenant is with ALL peoples who believe on Jesus Christ as their Saviour. And like Apostle Paul said in Gal.3, they inherit WITH Abraham, and have become the children of Abraham!

I've shown you Galatians 3 about this, which you've said nothing.
I've shown you what Jesus said about the unbelieving "children of the kingdom" being cast out.
I've shown you what Apostle Paul said to Gentiles with their inheriting the covenants and promises with becoming part of the "commonwealth of Israel".
Now I show you this...

Rom 9:24-26
24 Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As He saith also in Osee, "I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, 'Ye are not My people'; there shall they be called the children of the living God."
KJV

That was Apostle Paul speaking to Gentile Roman believers, along with scattered Israelite believers, i.e., Christ's Church.

A problem with that though; God originally gave that passage in Hosea only about the rebellious "house of Israel", the ten tribes. God told Hosea to take a prostitute for wife, and He named Hosea's children to symbolize how Israel (ten tribes) had rebelled against Him, and how He was getting ready to scatter them. So God called one of the children born to Hosea as "Lo-ammi", which means 'not My people'. But in final, God said that in the land where that was said, it will be said to them, "Ye are the sons of the living God." (Hosea 1:10).

But here in Romans 9, Apostle Paul is applying that Hosea passage to Christ's Church!

That is yet another Bible proof that the gathering to Christ Jesus involving believing Israel is for BOTH believing Israelite and believing Gentile, as ONE BODY, together.

Isa 49:22
22 Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up My standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.
KJV

Isa 54:2-3
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.
KJV

So Christ's Salvation is not... just about flesh-born Israelite believers being joined back to the holy lands? That's right. It's about Christ's Church of both believing Israelite and believing Gentile joined there under Jesus.

Copperhead said:

Prove it wrong. Prove that Ezra didn't call the returning remnant of his Jews 9 times and Israel 40 times. If they are only the two tribes you mention, why then are they called all Israel?

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Prove where Ezra and Nehemiah shows more than the tribes of Judah and Benjamin returned back to Judea after Judah's 70 year Babylon captivity.

Copperhead said:

Revisionist history? The preterists have real lock on that regarding dating of Revelation. If there ever was revisionist history, that is it. Ireaneous, a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John the Apostle stated categorically that Revelation was written during the time of the emperor Domitian which puts it in the 90's AD. Yet preterists will cling to the all was fulfilled in 70AD. They would prefer to not be burdened with the facts.

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I don't heed Preterism. They often call me a Futurist by mistake, thinking I'm on the pre-trib rapture theory.

The Bible teaches Christ's coming to gather His Church is after the tribulation at the end. That means a post-tribulational coming and gathering to Christ Jesus. That is what I believe, as written.


Those who believe differently than what Jesus showed in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are spiritually 'drunk' on men's doctrines...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

The thing about a 'drunk', you can't reason with them. They have cut off their ability to think and reason because of drunkenness on spirits.

Keraz said:

I know the Prophetic Word very well and what we Christians are Promised is for us to live in the holy Land, being the people God always wanted there. His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and the Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14-16 Going to live in heaven is never prophesied and Jesus refutes it. John 3:13, John 7:34, John 17:15, +

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I stand by this end times outcome. If God doesn't do what He has Promised to His faithful people, that they will live in all of the holy Land, in peace and security, then He has lost the battle with Satan.
A defeat of God is basically what it is for God to remove His Church from the earth.

However, I see that to show how wrong the 'rapture to heaven' proponents are is very upsetting to them. But they will be even more upset, when what they wanted God to do for them; doesn't happen.

Re the ten tribes of Israel; They are now an uncountable multitude, still scattered around the world. God knows who they all are; Amos 9:8-9 and they will be gathered, along with all those grafted in, and will enter the holy Land. Ezekiel 30:34-38 Where they will be called the children of the Living God. Romans 9:24-26

Davy said:

If David's throne was of the law, then it would have perished with the old covenant, and not promised to Jesus Christ per the New Covenant. Thus David's throne was ultimately intended for the New Covenant, and is thus eternally connected to God's Promise by Faith given to Abraham. Don't you remember when the children of Israel wanted a fleshy king like the nations around them, and it hurt God's feelings because He was their king? Use your brain.



Ah..., you stuck your foot in your mouth...

Gen 17:4-6
4 As for Me, behold, My covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
KJV

That was 430 years PRIOR to the law according to Apostle Paul when God gave Abram that Promise (Gal.3).

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But the Noahic Covenant and the Abrahamic covenant were never part of the Sinai Covenant which never affected them.

The covenant to never again destroy the earth by a flood is still in effect. Rainbow was out the other day after a shower, so I know the covenant is still in effect.

And the sun rose today, the moon was out last night, and though I don't live on the coast I would be willing to bet the waves are stiff roaring on the shoreline. According to YHVH, He said the covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob that started in Genesis 15 was still in effect and would be so until those things ceased.

Again, the only covenant that got superseded by the New Covenant is the Sinai Covenant.

But David was intended to be King all along back then. The people jumped the gun and pitched a fit and Saul was put in, but that was only because it wasn't time for David to be King. But David was predicted clear back in the time of the Judges before Saul was a blip on the radar. David was not a response to the people wanting a earthly king. It didn't hurt God's feelings in terms of David as he was predicted as the future king. And no, it had no bearing on the new covenant. The prophecy of the new covenant came after David was already dead and the Davidic covenant was established after David was king.

Davy said:

Prove where Ezra and Nehemiah shows more than the tribes of Judah and Benjamin returned back to Judea after Judah's 70 year Babylon captivity.

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The those from the northern tribes that migrated southward is shown via several occurrences in 2 Chronicles. Before the Babylonian exile all the tribes had been commingled. Likewise, when they came out of Babylon they were still commingled. That is why they were referred to as both Jews and Israelites in both Ezra and Nehemiah.

Again, at least 4 tribes are represented in the NT. No matter how you slice it, you cannot get 10 lost tribes from that. Especially since one of the tribes, Asher, was of the northern kingdom. Ask Anna someday when you see her.

Right out of the gate, the Levites are represented by Ezra. "men of Ramah" has a reference to a city in Ephraim of the northern kingdom. So the Ephraimites are mentioned. "men of Nebo" is a reference to a city in Reuben. So that tribe is mentioned. "men of Jericho is another northern kingdom reference.

And when they started rebuilding the temple under Ezra's command, they offered sacrifices...

Ezra 6:16-17 And the sons of Israel, the priests, the Levites and the rest of the exiles, celebrated the dedication of this house of God with joy. 17 They offered for the dedication of this temple of God 100 bulls, 200 rams, 400 lambs, and as a sin offering for all Israel 12 male goats, corresponding to the number of the tribes of Israel.

Ezra 8:35 The exiles who had come from the captivity offered burnt offerings to the God of Israel: 12 bulls for all Israel, 96 rams, 77 lambs, 12 male goats for a sin offering, all as a burnt offering to the Lord.

And we haven't got to Nehemiah yet.

Keraz said:

Re the ten tribes of Israel; They are now an uncountable multitude, still scattered around the world. God knows who they all are; Amos 9:8-9 and they will be gathered, along with all those grafted in, and will enter the holy Land. Ezekiel 30:34-38 Where they will be called the children of the Living God. Romans 9:24-26

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But of Israel,[here Paul is referring to the Jews] only a remnant will be saved. Romans 9:27

Copperhead said:

The those from the northern tribes that migrated southward is shown via several occurrences in 2 Chronicles. Before the Babylonian exile all the tribes had been commingled. Likewise, when they came out of Babylon they were still commingled. That is why they were referred to as both Jews and Israelites in both Ezra and Nehemiah.

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The Jews today are well aware that the ten Northern tribes are still scattered among the nations. A vast multitude.
Just reading Ezekiel 37 is enough to prove that they haven't rejoined yet. Also Jeremiah 50:4-5

Keraz said:

he Jews today are well aware that the ten Northern tribes are still scattered among the nations.

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Some do buy into that, just like some Christians do. But there are many who don't, especially in the Messianic Jewish community. That group tends to hold to a similar view that the tribes were commingled in 2 Chronicles and remained so thru the Babylonian exile, thru the Greek and Roman occupations, right on thru to today. So saying that Jews today side with the northern tribes are scattered among the nations is really not much proof of anything. Everyone realizes that when 3 Jews get together about a matter, they will likely arrive at 4 opinions. This a why Talmudic Judaism is a convoluted maze of concepts. Similar to modern legal thought.

Still, Paul considered himself of Benjamin, a Jew, a Hebrew of Hebrews, and also an Israelite. He saw the synonymous terminology. The groups that Ezra and Nehemiah brought back were considered both Jews and Israelites and called both in their respective books. By the time of the Maccabees, Jew and Israelite had become synonymous terms. And while some have used passages in Revelation that condemn those who claim to be Jews, meaning those in modern Israel are imposters, the same argument can be reasoned toward those in the church who lay claim to being the only true Israel. It can be just as much an indictment of replacement theology. And in the historical context, such concepts have actually been the base ideology that led to periods of genocide against those who claim to be Jews. Hitler and Nazis relied extensively on such ideas and were fond of quoting from Martin Luther's anti-semetic diatribe called "Against the Jews And Their Lies".

It is hubris on anyones part to claim to know where or who is related to any one tribal group or knows where and how they were dispersed. But there has been great effort put into determining the Levites over the last several decades. And there is compelling evidence that seems to support the contention that a Levite can be determined. But no other specific tribe has of yet been solidly identified. The branches of both houses have been commingled to the point that it is humanly impossible to distinguish between them. And likewise, it is pretty wild to lay claim that some do of the tribes being different segments of world population. Some really wild imaginings have developed those ideas with precious little actual biblical support, at least any based on principled hermeneutics. But I am convinced that YHVH knows who is who and will reveal that when the 144,000 are selected and separated out.

And there is a definite delineation between Hebrew and those of the nations regarding end times events as expressed in places like Joel 3 and other passages. So the idea that the various nations are actually the various tribes falls apart in light of such passages.

And it has been stated by others and really is a compelling statement at that. If there was worldwide persecution and outright genocide of all things Jewish, these ideas of claiming who is Jewish would quickly disappear and the majority who lay claim to Jew or Israelite heritage or lineage, even on a spiritual New Testament level, would quickly deny those ideas that the church is now Israel and believers are the literal seed of Abraham.

Keraz said:

But of Israel,[here Paul is referring to the Jews] only a remnant will be saved. Romans 9:27

The Jews today are well aware that the ten Northern tribes are still scattered among the nations. A vast multitude.
Just reading Ezekiel 37 is enough to prove that they haven't rejoined yet. Also Jeremiah 50:4-5

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If Paul was of Benjamin the how could he be a Pharisee? This may be a stupid question.

Whether you like it or not the word of the lord will not go unfulfilled, it does not matter whether you believe it or not there will be great tribulation and Christians have already been experiencing it, or what of suicide bombers bombing churches in Africa, also is not every country you can go and claim that you are a christian if you do not want to die

Copperhead said:

And there is a definite delineation between Hebrew and those of the nations regarding end times events as expressed in places like Joel 3 and other passages. So the idea that the various nations are actually the various tribes falls apart in light of such passages.

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The House of Israel is scattered among the nations, as several prophesies tell us.

I posted Ezekiel 37 as proof that they have yet to re-join. Has any of Ezekiel 37:22-28 happened yet? If not, then it is your beliefs that fall apart.

Keraz said:

The House of Israel is scattered among the nations, as several prophesies tell us.

I posted Ezekiel 37 as proof that they have yet to re-join. Has any of Ezekiel 37:22-28 happened yet? If not, then it is your beliefs that fall apart.

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But that doesn't make the nations the tribes of Israel as many promote. And there is also the house of Judah scattered as well. Folks get all tied up in the 2 house stuff that leads to all sorts of wild ideas.

Keep in mind, the scripture also says in some places that Jacob (both houses) will be gathered from where they have been scattered among the nations. And also, that the nations will be judged on how they treated Jacob (both houses again). So the wild ideas that some promote that various nations are really the various tribes of Israel is a bunch of stuff that comes out of the south end of a north bound buffalo.

Waiting on him said:

If Paul was of Benjamin the how could he be a Pharisee? This may be a stupid question.

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Why not? Being a Pharisee was just the equivalent of a Rabbinical leader. Don't confuse Pharisee with priests, which only Levites could be.

Copperhead said:

but that doesn't make the nations the tribes of Israel as many promote.

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"British Israelism" is one example. There are those who claim that the U.K. is Israel. I think it is no longer popular, though.