We really CAN'T answer some of these

Willie T said:

(It is so easy to twist His words just a little, and give them a different meaning than He did.)

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Not really. Are you forgetting that Christ identifies Himself fully with His people? So Me = Us for all practical purposes.

Willie T said:

Should we build doctrine around those passages?

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You are missing the point. Revelation 20 is a critical portion of Bible prophecy, and within the first seven verses, the Holy Spirit repeats "one (a) thousand years" six times, and gives us all the signification events associated with the Millennium (as an overview). Therefore it cannot be dismissed as metaphorical. Furthermore, there is absolutely no good reason to call that thousand years anything else. Unbelief does not qualify as a good reason.

Starting with Origen and some of the Early Church Fathers (particularly Augustine) the Scriptures began to be treated as allegorical and symbolic when they suited their interpretation. So Augustine made the Millennium an indefinite period of time.

"The church father Augustine of Hippo is without a doubt the central figure associated with the eschatological view of amillennialism. His viewpoint became the prevailing doctrine of the Roman Church, and it was adopted with variations by most of the Protestant Reformers along with many other teachings of Augustine.[1] To this day, it has become the basis for amillennialism, which would dominate the Christian church until well into the modern period.[2]... Augustine favoured the allegorical method of interpretation over other methods primarily because he believed that the Bible had been ‘veiled’ by God in order to ‘exercise’ the seeker.[6] "

Augustine and the Advent of Amillennialism

Willie T said:

So true. I doubt anything has begged for reconstructing as badly as the mess we have made of modern-day "Religion". We have mixed so much of humanism into it that you can hardly find God's laws in it anymore.

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Friend , God's authoritative word which is all the 66 books of the Bible does not need reconstructing, it needs a hearing with a humble heart.

bbyrd009 said:

The Bible also says that scribes will corrupt it, so maybe a different definition of Bible, which we obviously do not read in the original, or without human help somewhere along the way iow.

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Too bad you don't believe what the Bible testifies of itself that EVERY word is chosen by God. It is the authoritive , inerrant Word of God. Do you not believe God is omnipotent to oversee the writing of His Word?
If You don't want to believe that the Bible is what it says it is, that is a major stumbling block to knowing the Truth of God & having a personal relationship with Jesus with a believing faith in HIM.
Also it is not helpful or accurate to pull random scripture out of context and misapply it, it needs to be read & understood within the Context which it is written. The not believing the Bible is the word of God leads to the mishandling of it.
I'm still not sure what your religion or spiritual belief is , if you cannot know that the Bible is God's Word and Is reliable you have not found your way & if you do find it , you can easily lose it again.

Willie T said:

A few weeks ago, I posted a link to a book entitled "75 Questions Your Instructors Pray You will Never Ask," Mostly, the whole thing was dismissed as beneath the dignity of a "true Christian" to bother to respond to. (I also felt this way...… UNTIL I actually tried to answer some of them.)

I am posting just the questions (none of the book's answers) here to see if any of you run across the same dilemmas I did in trying to HONESTLY defend many of my doctrinal positions in replying to these questions.

1. Didn't God Hate the Unborn Infant Esau?
2. Could Pharaoh Have Repented?
3. Does God's Absolute Predestination Make Him Unfair?
4. If We Can't Work Our Way INTO Salvation, How Can We Work Our Way OUT?
5. How Can God GUARANTEE Good for His People Without PREDESTINATING Good?
6. How Can We Escape the Love of God?
7. If We Can "Fall From Grace," Isn't Christ's Intercession Ineffective?
8. Are We LESS Than Conquerors?
9. Doesn't God Make "Vessels Fitted for Destruction"?
10. When Did God Decide to Give Us Eternal Life?
11. Isn't Our Heavenly Inheritance Fully Guaranteed?
12. Aren't Our Good Works Predestined?
13. Didn't Jesus Deliberately Hide His Message so People Wouldn't Repent?
14. Could Judas Have Refused to Betray Jesus?
15. Don't Evil Men Also Glorify God?
16. Can Satan Repent and be Saved?
17. Aren't Men Ordained in Advance to Eternal Life?
18. Doesn't God Compel Men to Believe in Jesus?
19. Didn't God Choose Us Long Before We Accepted Him?
20. How Can an Unregenerate Man Accept Christ?
21. Could the Authorities Have Acted Righteously and Released Jesus?
22. Isn't God's Grace Irresistible?
23. Isn't the Will of God Absolutely Sovereign?
24. Isn't Faith in Christ the Gift of God?
25. Did Christ Die for All Men?
26. Isn't it Immoral for People to Have Sex with Animals?
27. How Can We Love God But Ignore God's Law?
28. Is Profession of Faith Enough, or Do Our Acts Also Count?
29. If Men Won't Obey God's Law, Are They Saved?
30. Are We "Once Saved, Always Saved"?
(to be continued)

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Willie,

Since I spend a lot of my ministry as an apologist, I've come across these kinds of objections to Christianity or the Bible many times. On my homepage, Truth Challenge, I've written a few articles addressing some of these topics:

1. “Jacob I loved, Esau I hated". What is the meaning?

2. The injustice of the God of Calvinism

3. Was Judas saved and then lost?

4. Sent to hell by God: Calvinism in action?

That should be enough to get us discussing.

Many of the topics you raised I have searched the Scriptures to discover God's answers. Some are what I call 'hot potato' subjects that some pastors and church leaders don't want to discuss.

Oz

bbyrd009 said:

God is the Immortal dave, have a nice day ok

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And Jesus said Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;What kind of life would this be then...immortal or eternal life that Jesus received as a gift of His Father, and able to confer upon others?

bbyrd009 said:

yup

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Willie T said:

And the CR's can, just as directly as Dispensationalists do, point to Scriptures that hold their doctrine just as well. As I have said on here many times before, the Bible seems to be written so that people reading it will find the particular, and specific, God they are looking for. Preconceived expectations produce our anticipated results.

All the while, each one is screaming at the other, "There is only ONE Truth... and I have found it!...… NOT YOU!... or THEM, or anyone else!"

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Glibly speaking this is true, but we ought to understand that the whole of scripture must be taken into account and not just the texts that favour our opinion. The unbelieving spectator to these discussions would imagine the Bible contradicts itself all over the place, but we ought to understand, and act accordingly, that every doctrinal truth is in harmony with all of scripture...the trick is searching deep enough and extensively enough to find it. Most only search far enough to confirm their preconceived ideas, not willing to dig deeper for fear of dismantling their own self-imposed status quo.

Dave L said:

How do you know if you are one of the elect? Answer; you believe the gospel when you hear it.

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I knew, and believed, I was forgiven, loved, and accepted by God years before I had even the remotest understanding of what the gospel is. And I would suggest that there are many on this very forum today who are saved, yet do not fully comprehend what the gospel means and how far reaching its power.
How did I know I was forgiven, loved, and accepted by God? Because Jesus entered my bedroom one evening and told me. He stayed with me literally for several hours before I fell asleep with tears soaking my pillow...I woke the next morning a born again believer in Christ having the holy Spirit already motivating me to good works...even though I had no idea as to the theological and Biblical explanation for any of it. But I had met my Saviour...and that was good enough for me....and Him...and the rule book of religious formulas on the "how to get saved" was for me, and still is, irrelevant.

brakelite said:

Glibly speaking this is true, but we ought to understand that the whole of scripture must be taken into account and not just the texts that favour our opinion. The unbelieving spectator to these discussions would imagine the Bible contradicts itself all over the place, but we ought to understand, and act accordingly, that every doctrinal truth is in harmony with all of scripture...the trick is searching deep enough and extensively enough to find it. Most only search far enough to confirm their preconceived ideas, not willing to dig deeper for fear of dismantling their own self-imposed status quo.

I knew, and believed, I was forgiven, loved, and accepted by God years before I had even the remotest understanding of what the gospel is. And I would suggest that there are many on this very forum today who are saved, yet do not fully comprehend what the gospel means and how far reaching its power.
How did I know I was forgiven, loved, and accepted by God? Because Jesus entered my bedroom one evening and told me. He stayed with me literally for several hours before I fell asleep with tears soaking my pillow...I woke the next morning a born again believer in Christ having the holy Spirit already motivating me to good works...even though I had no idea as to the theological and Biblical explanation for any of it. But I had met my Saviour...and that was good enough for me....and Him...and the rule book of religious formulas on the "how to get saved" was for me, and still is, irrelevant.

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Your experience sounds a lot like mine. Saved apart from church or preaching. But I knew it was Jesus and when I later read the gospel in scripture I believed. I think Cornelius was born again bearing the fruits long before he heard Peter preach. But believing the gospel when heard always reveals the new birth.

BreadOfLife said:

I think they missed one - and an important one:
God wills the salvation of ALL people and that ALL come to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. 2:3-4).

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1 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties [and] prayers, petitions [and] thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men,
2 for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, [and] one mediator also between God and men, [the] man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony [given] at the proper time.
1 Timothy 2:1-6

The Apostle Paul writing to Timothy utilizing the clause "all men" in verse 1 and verse 4.

Lord Jesus said:

"the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many" (Matthew 20:28)

"many are called, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14)

Jesus IS GOD (John 8:58). Paul IS MAN (Acts 7:58 Saul is Paul). The words of Paul need to reconcile back to Jesus. Lord Jesus said that Jesus came "to give His life a ransom for many". Paul wrote "gave Himself as a ransom for all". Lord Jesus said "many"; on the other hand, Paul said "all".

God is all mighty (Genesis 35:11) with a might that surpasses human intellect abilities (Isaiah 55:8). If God really wants something, then God gets it (Daniel 4:35, Jude 1:4, Revelation 21:27, Romans 9:20-23).

While examining Paul's writing in 1 Timothy 2:1-6, we would do well to keep in mind the revelation to the Apostle John:

"And they sang a new song, saying, 'Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.'" (Revelation 5:9-10)

Paul indicates prayers be made on behalf of "all men" then Paul mentions a classification of men, that is kings in the plural and those in authority in the plural. Don't forget Revelation 5:9-10.

Paul then indicates the prayers be about "that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity".

The "all men" mentioned by Paul does not indicate specific men, rather classifications/types of men. There are kings, and there are "not" kings. Keep an eye on Revelation 5:9-10. Note Paul's writing here does not mean that we cannot pray for specific individuals.

In verse 4, Paul indicates God desires "all men" to be saved. The "all men" in verse 4 are a continuation of the "all men" in verse 1, that is, the classifications/types of men. God desires men of various types to be saved, recall Revelation 5:9-10 above.

In verse 6, Paul indicates that Christ Jesus gave Himself a ransom for "all", and that "all" is the elect/chosed of God (recall Matthew 22:14 above). That is, the ones who are born again by the Spirit of God (John 3:3 and John 3:5) as well as the work of God in a person to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).

Can the Apostle Paul be referring to every person who ever lived at any point in time in 1 Timothy 2:4 or 1 Timothy 2:6? Let's examine scripture which contains the answer.

- Judas Iscariot (Jesus knew the son of perdition [destruction, ruin, loss, perishing; eternal ruin] would betray him John 13:11, John 17:12, Acts 1:16-20)

- Pharoah (raised up to fight against God Romans 9:17)

- Esau (God said "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED." Romans 9:13 translated accurately, quoting from Malachi 1:2-3)

- Jewish Religious Leaders (they cried out saying, "Crucify, crucify!" about Jesus John 19:6 and with the upcoming "Your" being God's "to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur" Acts 4:27-28)

- Pontius Pilate (the upcoming "Your" being God's "to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur" Acts 4:27-28)

- Antichrist ("false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect" Matthew 24:24)

The above six points, every one of the points, makes reference to REAL people. The people are ALL under the wrath of God for there is no indicating of belief in Jesus whom the Father has sent!

Paul wrote Romans 9:13 and Paul wrote 1 Timothy 2:4. Thus providing more clarity that "all men" in 1 Timothy 2:1-6 are various types of men.

It is far worse than a critical disservice to God for any man to interpret 1 Timothy 2:1-6 as some kind of promiscuous man controlled salvation support apparatus.

Please see "The Sovereignty of God is true, and the sovereignty of man is false Post (in this thread)".

Willie T said:

As I have oft repeated here, I believe the Bible is very definitely written so that anyone can find the god they are looking for. If you truly want, in your heart, to find a god with certain attributes — be it fire & fury, or love and compassion — God is going to let you find what you with your preconceived notions want to find. Thus, "Yes" contradictions will appear to many people who resist looking for deeper answers.

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I often say the bible is a Rorschach Test where people see how they believe instead of learning from it. We drag our unwashed carnal mind into it and see what the flesh wants to see. In time God uproots these pagan concepts and begins washing our minds with the water of the word.

bbyrd009 said:

ty, I'll stick with "age-long, an age, a space of time"

There is only One Immortal

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Also from eternity to eternity, guess one would run into some dissonance there too

Enoch111 said:

Then how is it that the Spirit has not revealed to you what is PLAINLY stated in Scripture -- that God desires the salvation of all mankind, therefore there cannot be any predestination unto salvation.

Every time the word predestined occurs in the New Testament, it is always about the perfection of the saints, never about the salvation of sinners.

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Lord Jesus said:

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." (John 6:37)

"Will come" is future tense; therefore, this is God's predestination described by Lord Jesus Himself. God knows His own (John 10:14). This is about salvation. This is about sanctification. Paul's words sync up with Jesus' words.

"He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved" (Ephesians 1:5-6)

As you wrote in post #146, "Even if it had been mentioned once, that would be sufficient for any Christian who holds to the divine inspiration of Scripture." Look there, Enoch111, predestination is indicated twice.

Concerning your assertion "that God desires the salvation of all mankind" as a refutation of presdestination, please see "Examination of "all" in 1 Timothy 2:1-6 in the Light of our Lord Jesus Post (in this thread)".

Please see "Predestination Means God Destined Beforehand Including Salvation Post (in this thread)" which remains true according to the Spirit! Man cannot choose Jesus, period, Jesus chooses men (John 15:16). Acknowledge Lord Jesus in all your ways, and He will make your path straight - do not be deceived by the teachings of men - trust in Him with all your heart - He is the door of the sheep. This is quoting Proverbs 3:5-6 and Matthew 7:13-14 and Matthew 22:37-40 and Luke 13:23-24 and John 10:7).

Enoch111 said:

You won't find that in the Bible.

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well so you say, but imo the concept is developed pretty easily, "For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes," "Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time?" even Peter's admonition about reading Paul.

I don't mean to say that every scribe ever was a hypocrite either, but one should pretty obviously suspect a translation that has Easter for Passover imo. So to say that every word in an EnglishBible came from God is strictly a non- starter I think

Enoch111 said:

But the proof that the Old Testament was totally reliable, and faithfully transmitted, are in the words of Christ Himself (who is God):
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses [Torah], and in the prophets [Neviim], and in the psalms [Ketuvim], concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures [the Tanakh]... (Luke 24:44,45)

If Christ had had any concerns about the corruption of the OT, he could never have said what He did above. So forget about what you stated there, since it is more nonsense from the enemies of Christ and Christianity.

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the difference imo being that Christ demonstrated His ability to read unpointed Hebrew and Aramaic, the original languages, whereas we cannot. So imo we are mostly agreeing in raised voices here, as I would agree that reading from an inter linear or even a lexicon you would at least remove the guy who could substitute "Easter" right.