Has anyone changed their mind...?

Marymog · Apr 7, 2019

Enoch111 said:
It was the Ark which saved Noah. See my thread on Noah's Ark. The water was necessary to keep the Ark afloat, but safety was within the Ark ( a type of Christ) not the Deluge. Without the Ark Noah and all the occupants of the Ark would have been destroyed.

If the Ark saved them then there was no need for the water....soooo your theory makes no sense.

The water saved them, just like scripture says, and the water destroyed evil/sin....like the water of baptism.....just like scripture says.

Scripture clearly says “were saved thru water” sooooo what you are preaching is OPPOSITE of Scripture.

I am surprised @brakelite and @ByGrace “liked” your post when it is clearly OPPOSITE of Scripture.....I guess they like anti-Scriptural interpretations.

Mary

brakelite · Apr 7, 2019

Marymog said:
If the Ark saved them then there was no need for the water....soooo your theory makes no sense.

The water saved them, just like scripture says, and the water destroyed evil/sin....like the water of baptism.....just like scripture says.

Scripture clearly says “were saved thru water” sooooo what you are preaching is OPPOSITE of Scripture.

I am surprised @brakelite and @ByGrace “liked” your post when it is clearly OPPOSITE of Scripture.....I guess they like anti-Scriptural interpretations.

Mary

I guess you missed my previous comment...that the water didn't do much good for the thousands who were desperately scratching at the door of the ark as it floated away. They didn't think the water was saving them...they knew they needed the ark, but they were too late.
When fire destroys the earth on the last day, what is going to save you then Mary? More water?

Enoch111 · Apr 7, 2019

Marymog said:
The water saved them, just like scripture says, and the water destroyed evil/sin....like the water of baptism.....just like scripture says.

There is frequently a great misunderstanding of that passage in 1 Peter 3:19-21. So we need to look at it very closely:

By which also he [Christ] went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

We need to spiritually discern what is being taught in this passage. Therefore we need to ask ourselves several questions:

1. According to the Gospel are souls saved by water or any other means, or are souls saved by repenting and believing on the Lord Jesus Christ? And the answer is obvious.

2. If that is true, in what sense does baptism "now save us"?

3. Can "eight were souls saved by water" be stated as "eight souls were saved through water"? And that is exactly what "dia" means, and should have been translated thus.

Strong's Concordance
dia: through, on account of, because of
Original Word: διά
Part of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: dia
Phonetic Spelling: (dee-ah')
Definition: through, on account of, because of
Usage: (a) gen: through, throughout, by the instrumentality of, (b) acc: through, on account of, by reason of, for the sake of, because of.

Therefore eight souls were saved THROUGH water when the Ark went through the Deluge. There was intense rain, which means that the Ark and its occupants were figuratively "baptized" in water. And the Ark floated on the water for one year, so that too was eight souls being saved through water. Thus "the like figure (Gk antitupon = antitype)" of Christian baptism by immersion.

So now we need to determine how Christian baptism "saves us"? Is that a figure of speech or can water save anyone?

The key to the answer is in the resurrection of Jesus Christ. And that is what Peter is saying. The Bible says that Christ was raised from the dead for our justification. In other words, had Christ simply died for our sins and remained dead, it would have availed nothing. His resurrection was imperative to establish that Christ had destroyed the power of, and the penalty for sins -- destroyed the power of sin, Hades, Hell, death, and Satan. Thus He was declared "Lord" after His resurrection.

Those who believe with their hearts that Christ died for their sins and was raised for their justification are saved by grace through faith, justified by God, and forgiven of all their sins. That produces a "good conscience". Therefore when they are baptized as believers, they are telling the world that they have been saved by grace (not by the water of baptism).

Peter also makes it clear that water can only "put away" or cleanse "the flesh" (the body). So water is only good for bathing, not salvation.

Marymog · Apr 7, 2019

brakelite said:
Water didn't do much good for all the thousands scratching on the side of the ark as it started to float away.

Thank you Braklite.

I agree, the water didn’t do any good for them. God used the water to wash away evil and sin.

Mary

Marymog · Apr 7, 2019

brakelite said:
I guess you missed my previous comment...that the water didn't do much good for the thousands who were desperately scratching at the door of the ark as it floated away. They didn't think the water was saving them...they knew they needed the ark, but they were too late.
When fire destroys the earth on the last day, what is going to save you then Mary? More water?

Hi Brakelite,

Yup, your right, the water wasn’t saving THEM. It washed them away because they were corrupt, wicked and evil hearted. Thank God the water saved eight souls in all. Baptism, which saves YOU, now corresponds to this.

Not sure what your fire destroying the earth on the last day has to do with water saving Noah and washing away sinful people.......

Soooo I would answer but I don’t understand it....sorry

Marymog · Apr 7, 2019

Enoch111 said:
There is frequently a great misunderstanding of that passage in 1 Peter 3:19-21. So we need to look at it very closely:

By which also he [Christ] went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

We need to spiritually discern what is being taught in this passage. Therefore we need to ask ourselves several questions:

1. According to the Gospel are souls saved by water or any other means, or are souls saved by repenting and believing on the Lord Jesus Christ? And the answer is obvious.

2. If that is true, in what sense does baptism "now save us"?

3. Can "eight were souls saved by water" be stated as "eight souls were saved through water"? And that is exactly what "dia" means, and should have been translated thus.

Strong's Concordance
dia: through, on account of, because of
Original Word: διά
Part of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: dia
Phonetic Spelling: (dee-ah')
Definition: through, on account of, because of
Usage: (a) gen: through, throughout, by the instrumentality of, (b) acc: through, on account of, by reason of, for the sake of, because of.

Therefore eight souls were saved THROUGH water when the Ark went through the Deluge. There was intense rain, which means that the Ark and its occupants were figuratively "baptized" in water. And the Ark floated on the water for one year, so that too was eight souls being saved through water. Thus "the like figure (Gk antitupon = antitype)" of Christian baptism by immersion.

So now we need to determine how Christian baptism "saves us"? Is that a figure of speech or can water save anyone?

The key to the answer is in the resurrection of Jesus Christ. And that is what Peter is saying. The Bible says that Christ was raised from the dead for our justification. In other words, had Christ simply died for our sins and remained dead, it would have availed nothing. His resurrection was imperative to establish that Christ had destroyed the power of, and the penalty for sins -- destroyed the power of sin, Hades, Hell, death, and Satan. Thus He was declared "Lord" after His resurrection.

Those who believe with their hearts that Christ died for their sins and was raised for their justification are saved by grace through faith, justified by God, and forgiven of all their sins. That produces a "good conscience". Therefore when they are baptized as believers, they are telling the world that they have been saved by grace (not by the water of baptism).

Peter also makes it clear that water can only "put away" or cleanse "the flesh" (the body). So water is only good for bathing, not salvation.

Hi Enoch,

Who taught you this? Or is this your interpretation?

Curious Mary

Helen · Apr 7, 2019

Marymog said:
If the Ark saved them then there was no need for the water....soooo your theory makes no sense.

The water saved them, just like scripture says, and the water destroyed evil/sin....like the water of baptism.....just like scripture says.

Scripture clearly says “were saved thru water” sooooo what you are preaching is OPPOSITE of Scripture.

I am surprised @brakelite and @ByGrace “liked” your post when it is clearly OPPOSITE of Scripture.....I guess they like anti-Scriptural interpretations.

Mary

And Mary...you obviously 'like' hammering on and on about water baptism.
What has it got to do the OP?
You are already on another thread 'arguing the baptism point' over and over...why do you need to bring it here too?
You have a bee in your bonnet obviously.

Your argument about the water saving Noah is silly. If there was no ARK he and his family would not have been saved.
But if there had been an Ark but no water ...he would still have been saved by faith..as he entered into the Ark at the word of the Lord, and God shut the door.

Hebrews 11 :7 " By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an Ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."

No mention of water saving at all.
You have asked you point on baptism more than once on these forums...your post #70 is just a repeat question...obviously your mind is made up on it..so why not just stick with that then?

Marymog · Apr 7, 2019

Enoch111 said:
There is frequently a great misunderstanding of that passage in 1 Peter 3:19-21. So we need to look at it very closely:

By which also he [Christ] went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

We need to spiritually discern what is being taught in this passage. Therefore we need to ask ourselves several questions:

1. According to the Gospel are souls saved by water or any other means, or are souls saved by repenting and believing on the Lord Jesus Christ? And the answer is obvious.

2. If that is true, in what sense does baptism "now save us"?

3. Can "eight were souls saved by water" be stated as "eight souls were saved through water"? And that is exactly what "dia" means, and should have been translated thus.

Strong's Concordance
dia: through, on account of, because of
Original Word: διά
Part of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: dia
Phonetic Spelling: (dee-ah')
Definition: through, on account of, because of
Usage: (a) gen: through, throughout, by the instrumentality of, (b) acc: through, on account of, by reason of, for the sake of, because of.

Therefore eight souls were saved THROUGH water when the Ark went through the Deluge. There was intense rain, which means that the Ark and its occupants were figuratively "baptized" in water. And the Ark floated on the water for one year, so that too was eight souls being saved through water. Thus "the like figure (Gk antitupon = antitype)" of Christian baptism by immersion.

So now we need to determine how Christian baptism "saves us"? Is that a figure of speech or can water save anyone?

The key to the answer is in the resurrection of Jesus Christ. And that is what Peter is saying. The Bible says that Christ was raised from the dead for our justification. In other words, had Christ simply died for our sins and remained dead, it would have availed nothing. His resurrection was imperative to establish that Christ had destroyed the power of, and the penalty for sins -- destroyed the power of sin, Hades, Hell, death, and Satan. Thus He was declared "Lord" after His resurrection.

Those who believe with their hearts that Christ died for their sins and was raised for their justification are saved by grace through faith, justified by God, and forgiven of all their sins. That produces a "good conscience". Therefore when they are baptized as believers, they are telling the world that they have been saved by grace (not by the water of baptism).

Peter also makes it clear that water can only "put away" or cleanse "the flesh" (the body). So water is only good for bathing, not salvation.

Hi,

Soooooo there is no need for a person to be baptized with water?

Is that what you are saying???

Curious Mary

Enoch111 · Apr 7, 2019

Marymog said:
Hi Enoch, Who taught you this? Or is this your interpretation? Curious Mary

You could have learned this from the Bible yourself. Peter said that water is only good for washing away the filth that accumulates on the human body. The Bible also says (to keep it simple) "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" (Acts 16:31).

Enoch111 · Apr 7, 2019

Marymog said:
Hi, Soooooo there is no need for a person to be baptized with water? Is that what you are saying???Curious Mary

Now this is an entirely different issue.

The Lord Jesus Christ -- before His ascension -- commanded Christian baptism by immersion (since that is what the Greek word means). At the same time He taught the doctrine of the Trinity. So water baptism by immersion is an imperative for all those who truly believe and are converted. It is a testimony to the world that they have been saved by grace.

MATTHEW 28
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

In view of this, Peter COMMANDED the saved Jews to be baptized on the day of Pentecost, and he also COMMANDED the saved Gentiles to be baptized in the house of Cornelius. All through the book of Acts, those who believed were immediately baptized by immersion.

Marymog · Apr 7, 2019

"ByGrace" said:
And Mary...you obviously 'like' hammering on and on about water baptism.
What has it got to do the OP?
You are already on another thread 'arguing the baptism point' over and over...why do you need to bring it here too?
You have a bee in your bonnet obviously.

Your argument about the water saving Noah is silly. If there was no ARK he and his family would not have been saved.
But if there had been an Ark but no water ...he would still have been saved by faith..as he entered into the Ark at the word of the Lord, and God shut the door.

Hebrews 11 :7 " By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an Ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."

No mention of water saving at all.
You have asked you point on baptism more than once on these forums...your post #70 is just a repeat question...obviously your mind is made up on it..so why not just stick with that then?

Hi BG,

Hmmmmmm......You chastise me for hammering on and on about water baptism and for me bringing my “arguing the baptism point” to this thread but you then go on to hammer me about how water saving Noah is silly. By criticizing me and quoting Scriputre about the subject YOU continued the discussion. But on the other hand you chastise me for allegedly starting the discussion. WEIRD....

If you don’t want it on this thread tell me you don’t want it on this thread. Don’t throw wood on the fire after accusing me of starting the fire.....

@Willie T asked me a question. I answered it and mentioned baptism in my response. @Enoch111 then chimed in to our conversation........ @Willie T refused to answer my 1 question and only wanted me to answer his 2 questions.....kind of silly but that’s what he wanted....He refused to talk to me after that.

Soooooo have you asked Enoch or anyone else that has chimed in on this discussion why they are discussing baptism????? The conversation between Willie T and I was over because he wanted to preach to me instead of talk with me....Enoch fired it back up.....I obliged him.....Or are you suggesting I should have ignored him??????? If you are suggesting I should have ignored him then maybe you could have ignored me too???

Scripture says eight souls where saved by water. If you don’t like it don’t take it up with me. Take it up with God....He said it, not me.

Mary

Butterfly · Apr 7, 2019

Hi Bygrace ( Helen )
I have always come to forums with the aim of learning, whether it be about scripture, people or myself. I tend to listen to what others are saying and often it prompts me to reflect privately away from the forum- God has used many a prompt from people here. Willie, when he mentioned ' The Shack' stands out - that changed my outlook on ' who Jesus died for ' and it had a knock on effect to how I view people I dislike or do not fit into my mould of ' being okay before God '
I remember , before I joined, a certain someone mentioning that I might need a thick skin here- not sure I have a thick skin yet, but all the arguing and self righteousness from some at least enables me to take a step back and see what it must have been like being around the Pharisees - and reflect and contemplate ' I wonder what Jesus thinks of that attitude !!
Having said that I have met some wonderful people from around the world who endeavour to share the same space - who don't hold back , which does in fact help me to get that slightly thicker skin that I do need to grow.
I have come to learn a new phrase while I have been here ' turn the record off ' as sometimes the same old things just go round and round and round !!!!
I have leaned that some people are predictable , you kind of know what they will say , that many put God in a box , and some don't - but that through all the diversity, everyone here has a passion for what they believe.
Rita

Helen · Apr 7, 2019

Butterfly said:
Hi Bygrace ( Helen )
I have always come to forums with the aim of learning, whether it be about scripture, people or myself. I tend to listen to what others are saying and often it prompts me to reflect privately away from the forum- God has used many a prompt from people here. Willie, when he mentioned ' The Shack' stands out - that changed my outlook on ' who Jesus died for ' and it had a knock on effect to how I view people I dislike or do not fit into my mould of ' being okay before God '
I remember , before I joined, a certain someone mentioning that I might need a thick skin here- not sure I have a thick skin yet, but all the arguing and self righteousness from some at least enables me to take a step back and see what it must have been like being around the Pharisees - and reflect and contemplate ' I wonder what Jesus thinks of that attitude !!
Having said that I have met some wonderful people from around the world who endeavour to share the same space - who don't hold back , which does in fact help me to get that slightly thicker skin that I do need to grow.
I have come to learn a new phrase while I have been here ' turn the record off ' as sometimes the same old things just go round and round and round !!!!
I have leaned that some people are predictable , you kind of know what they will say , that many put God in a box , and some don't - but that through all the diversity, everyone here has a passion for what they believe.
Rita

Thanks for the reply Rita.

Im glad you joined the Site... Everyone brings a bit of a different flavour to the pot...and as you say...I am sure many of us are predictable in what and how we post

I find it fun for the main part. And yes, there are gems hidden among the waffle in many threads lol
I'm sure many of us come on here looking for little gems in the day...while others seem to come to find someone to argue with...which there usually is

So hopefully everyone comes and goes away after being blessed in some measure or the other.

Take care ...H x

Helen · Apr 7, 2019

Marymog said:
Scripture says eight souls where saved by water. If you don’t like it don’t take it up with me. Take it up with God....He said it, not me.

Mary

Touché
So...shall we say it is not either v Or, but BOTH ...and, let it drop ?

Nancy · Apr 7, 2019

Episkopos said:
There are differences of course between The Catholic system and the Protestant system. The main difference is that in the Catholic system, it is man deceiving man. In the Protestant system, it's the other way around.

Helen · Apr 7, 2019

Episkopos said:
There are differences of course between The Catholic system and the Protestant system. The main difference is that in the Catholic system, it is man deceiving man. In the Protestant system, it's the other way around.

Oh very good!

Jun2u · Apr 7, 2019

Enoch111 said:
In view of this, Peter COMMANDED the saved Jews to be baptized on the day of Pentecost, and he also COMMANDED the saved Gentiles to be baptized in the house of Cornelius. All through the book of Acts, those who believed were immediately baptized by immersion.

We’ve had this discussion in the past and still teaching a false Gospel are you?. I must admit you are consistent though.

Ephesians 4:4-5 declares:
4) There is one body, and one Spirit, even as we are called in one hope of your calling:
5) One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

Baptism means “TO WASH” and this must be spiritually discerned as water baptism saves no one. Water baptism is a work that man performs and is contrary to Eph 2:9.

The one baptism spoken of in Eph 4:5 is the same “washing of regeneration” found in Titus 3:5 which is essential to salvation!!

The word “baptized” found in Acts 2:38 is NOT the water baptism rather the baptism of the washing of regeneration, which washes away sins.

To God Be The Glory

Nancy · Apr 7, 2019

Enoch111 said:
Forget about the labels and the doctrines on men. The only thing that matters is what is actually revealed in Scripture. And the answer to your question is found in many Scriptures, but let's take just one (Ephesians 2:8,9) keeping in mind that these are the words of God through Paul, not the musings of Paul on his own:

GOD'S PART = GOD'S GRACE
For by grace are ye saved..

THE SINNER'S PART = FAITH IN CHRIST AND HIS FINISHED WORK
...through faith...

GOD'S PART = ETERNAL LIFE IS GOD'S GIFT
and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

SALVATION CANNOT BE EARNED BY GOOD WORKS
...Not of works...

NO MAN CAN THEREFORE BOAST ABOUT HIS SALVATION
...lest any man should boast.

Because you have been deceived by Calvinism, you claim that those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ are "saving themselves". That is absolute rubbish. Saving faith comes through (a) the preaching of the Gospel (which is the power of God unto salvation) and (b) the convicting and convincing of the Holy Spirit (which is also the power of God unto salvation).

Well said @Enoch111

FHII · Apr 7, 2019

Willie T's post about 75 thingys changed my mind about some things too. Still digesting the real lesson.

Willie T · Apr 7, 2019

FHII said:
Willie T's post about 75 thingys changed my mind about some things too. Still digesting the real lesson.

The questions posted were just "teasers." The real mental activation comes from the lengthy and much deeper treatment of each of those questions inside the book. (The frivolous "Yes" and "No" answers given here were a bit of a disappointment at how little some people actually think.)

Has anyone changed their mind...?

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