The necessity of the Trinity

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101G

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Necessarily do not disagree with either you or Dave ...just asking. Seems y’all have had this conversation with same around and around motion. Was up late last night confused over this very thing of who is speaking sometimes. Jesus Christ said the volume of the book is of Him. So it has never been hard to hear that He is indeed throughout the OT as Lord. Not the flesh but God being only One. Can’t wrap my mind around it though and not even sure it is as necessary as knowing who God is, seen in the Son. You are speaking of triune or trinity ...can a share a passage with you and maybe you could help on who is speaking?
first thanks for the reply. second, nope I never went round and round. I stated the course. if the trinity doctrine is true, then the bible will confirm it.

anytime a doctrine changes, then it was never from God. first the three Gods got shot down, God the Father, God the son, and God the Holy Ghost, now it's three persons. well the bible don't agree. as said can someone reconcile John 1:3 and isaiah 44:24. it's just that simple.

now in our defence we answered and exposed the lie about Genesis 1:26, and here at the baptism. but we cannot get any answer on John 1:3 and Isaiah 44:24?.

PICJAG.
 

101G

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I’m sorry. Still not seeing it
ok VJ, do every voice from heaven is God voice? yes or no.

NO. the angels speak from HEAVEN on God behalf sometimes. example, Genesis 21:17 "And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is".

PICJAG
 

VictoryinJesus

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first thanks for the reply. second, nope I never went round and round. I stated the course. if the trinity doctrine is true, then the bible will confirm it.

anytime a doctrine changes, then it was never from God. first the three Gods got shot down, God the Father, God the son, and God the Holy Ghost, now it's three persons. well the bible don't agree. as said can someone reconcile John 1:3 and isaiah 44:24. it's just that simple.

now in our defence we answered and exposed the lie about Genesis 1:26, and here at the baptism. but we cannot get any answer on John 1:3 and Isaiah 44:24?.

PICJAG.

Get it. But then don’t. Fully aware there is One God. One God I pray to. But it is still confusing ...

Isaiah 43:11
[11] I, even I, am the Lord ; and beside me there is no saviour.

Isaiah 45:15
[15] Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.
 

VictoryinJesus

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ok VJ, do every voice from heaven is God voice? yes or no.

NO. the angels speak from HEAVEN on God behalf sometimes. example, Genesis 21:17 "And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is".

PICJAG

Now you’ve thrown in “angel” ! Explain why “angel” is important to dispelling Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?
 

101G

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Now you’ve thrown in “angel” ! Explain why “angel” is important to dispelling Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?
sure, for there is no conformation by scripture that the voice from heaven is God Voice, here at the Lord Jesus Baptism.

second, who else is in heaven beside God?.

PICJAG.
 

VictoryinJesus

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sure, for there is no conformation by scripture that the voice from heaven is God Voice, here at the Lord Jesus Baptism.

second, who else is in heaven beside God?.

PICJAG.

Colossians 2:18-19
[18] Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, [19] And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

Not saying that is what is here. Yes, see the “angel of the Lord” spoken of through OT. Again, really struggle with Father, Son, and Holy Spirit...then throw in “angel of the Lord”. I’m just being honest. It is very confusing. Maybe it is because God has to show it and He just hasn’t to me.
 

101G

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Colossians 2:18-19
[18] Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, [19] And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

Not saying that is what is here. Yes, see the “angel of the Lord” spoken of through OT. Again, really struggle with Father, Son, and Holy Spirit...then throw in “angel of the Lord”. I’m just being honest. It is very confusing. Maybe it is because God has to show it and He just hasn’t to me.
no one is throwing in anything, just facts. angels at time speak from heaven on God's behalf. no worshipping of an angels, ok. it just that at times angels speak on God behalf ...... from heaven

so Colossians 2:18-19 want apply here.

PICJAG.
 

VictoryinJesus

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no one is throwing in anything, just facts. angels at time speak from heaven on God's behalf. no worshipping of an angels, ok. it just that at times angels speak on God behalf ...... from heaven

so Colossians 2:18-19 want apply here.

PICJAG.

Acts 5:19-20
[19] But the angel of the Lord by night opened the prison doors, and brought them forth, and said, [20] Go, stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life.

Same angel of Lord who stood by Paul when no one else would? Acts 23:11 And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.
 
D

Dave L

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Well then applying the same logic, If the trinity doctrine is false, all who accept it worship an idol bearing Jesus' And as you say, "what fellowship has light with darkness? So should we likewise steer clear of these as far as concerns fellowship?

Nor does rejecting the Trinity imply that one denies Jesus is the Christ, I can't answer for anyone else but we affirm this 100%.
The trinity doctrine is a conclusion about God as taught in the scriptures. Anything short of recognizing that fact results in idol worship.
 
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Dave L

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Nope I caLL IT Just what the bible caLLS IT, listen, Jesus is identified as the "OFFSPRING", Revelation 22:16
OFFSPRING: G1085 γένος genos (ǰe'-nos) n.
kin.
{abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective}
[from G1096]
KJV: born, country(-man), diversity, generation, kind(-red), nation, offspring, stock

at least "diversity" is in the bible identification of the person. and this "diversity" is simply "ANOTHER" of oneself, which is G243 Allos... lol.

which you cannot understand, but the bible is clear..... only to those who have ears to hear.

and John 1:3 and isaiah 44:24 backs this up....... well?.

PICJAG.
You are closer to Islam and Judaism than you are Christ.
 
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Dave L

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that was on the Mountian of transfiguration which we gave, but at the baptism, please post book chapter and verse, as to who actually spoke. as was with the transfiguration 2 Peter 1:17-18 confirm the voice as the father, but can you confirm who spoke at the baptism?

PICJAG
Every Son has a Father.
 

VictoryinJesus

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Speaking of “Trinity”...can anyone give insight to who is speaking here in (Proverbs 8:1-36)

“Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.”

“Hear, for I will speak excellent things...”

“...wickedness is an abomination to my lips.”

Counsel is mine...” —Romans 11:33-34
[33] O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! [34] For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

Isaiah 40:13
[13] Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord , or being his counsellor hath taught him?


Proverbs 8:17-21
[17] I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me. [18] Riches and honour are with me; yea , durable riches and righteousness. [19] My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver. [20] I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment: [21] That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.

“My fruit is better than gold,...” Fruit of the Spirit?

Proverbs 8:22-28
[22] The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. [23] I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. [24] When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. [25] Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: [26] While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. [27] When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: [28] When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

“...I was there...” ...”While as yet he had not made the earth,...”

Proverbs 8:30-32
[30] Then I was by him, as one brought up with him : and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; [31] Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men. [32] Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.


Proverbs 8:34
[34] Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.


Proverbs 8:35
[35] For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the Lord .

—John 14:6-7
[6] Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. [7] If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.


Proverbs 8:36
[36] But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.—-Matthew 16:24-25 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. [25] For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.


The Father, The Son, or the Spirit(fruit)? Whose “door posts”, whose “ways”, whose “For whoso findeth me findeth life,”
 

101G

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Every Son has a Father.
I have had someone else tell a son of mine something.

so that want fly. now if you're so sure that the voice is God's Voice, then just post the scripture, as Peter did when on the mountian of transfiguration. the ball in your court,.

it's just that easy, juet post the scripture that says that's God voice from heaven....:cool:

PICJAG
 
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Dave L

Guest
I have had someone else tell a son of mine something.

so that want fly. now if you're so sure that the voice is God's Voice, then just post the scripture, as Peter did when on the mountian of transfiguration. the ball in your court,.

it's just that easy, juet post the scripture that says that's God voice from heaven....:cool:

PICJAG
If the Son is begotten of the Father as scripture affirms, how can the voice saying "this is my Son" be anyone else?
 

101G

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If the Son is begotten of the Father as scripture affirms, how can the voice saying "this is my Son" be anyone else?
Look don’t argue with me argue with the WORD of God… (smile). just reconcicle John 1:3 and Isaiah 44:24.

See you can’t because it destroys your false doctrine.

PICJAG.

now you can put up or ..... up.
 
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Dave L

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Look don’t argue with me argue with the WORD of God… (smile). just reconcicle John 1:3 and Isaiah 44:24.

See you can’t because it destroys your false doctrine.

PICJAG.

now you can put up or ..... up.
You can't understand these verses having been blinded by your denomination.
 

VictoryinJesus

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no one is throwing in anything, just facts. angels at time speak from heaven on God's behalf. no worshipping of an angels, ok. it just that at times angels speak on God behalf ...... from heaven

so Colossians 2:18-19 want apply here.

PICJAG.


Mark 9:7
[7] And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

Luke 1:34-35
[34] Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? [35] And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost(Spirit)shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

...the angel answered... which angel do you say this is? “the Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.” You said prove it is the Father who spoke and not the angel who said “This is my beloved Son” ...are you saying the angel of the Lord overshadowed Mary and was the power of the Highest? Are you saying the Holy Spirit IS the angel of the Lord which conceived “that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.” Not understanding what profit there is in saying it was not the Father but the angel?
 
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CoreIssue

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A critical defining piece of the Trinity doctrine: that the Father, Son, and Spirit are one God via consubstantiation--.
"For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person"
- The Athanasian Creed


Note: we are not saved by our ability to pass a theology test. Yes, MANY people have misconceptions about the nature of God, and we should stress Truth and strive to teach it. But a person is not saved by their ability to pass a theology test (or disqualified by misunderstanding things).

But in your Mormonism Jesus was born by sex between the Mormon Father and one his wives. All from the planet Kobel.