Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.

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Copperhead

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but that doesn't make the nations the tribes of Israel as many promote.
"British Israelism" is one example. There are those who claim that the U.K. is Israel. I think it is no longer popular, though.

Yeah, it still hangs on. It even has a few variants of it that keep clinging on.
 
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Keraz

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But that doesn't make the nations the tribes of Israel as many promote. And there is also the house of Judah scattered as well. Folks get all tied up in the 2 house stuff that leads to all sorts of wild ideas.

Keep in mind, the scripture also says in some places that Jacob (both houses) will be gathered from where they have been scattered among the nations. And also, that the nations will be judged on how they treated Jacob (both houses again). So the wild ideas that some promote that various nations are really the various tribes of Israel is a bunch of stuff that comes out of the south end of a north bound buffalo.
Yes, there are quite a few 'Jewish wannabees'. They are poor peoples that act out some Jewish rituals, in order to gain Israeli citizenship. We can be fairly sure that they have nothing to do with any of the 12 tribes.

Those who like to denigrate British Israelites and other theories about the whereabouts of the 10 Northern tribes, have never properly researched the facts. Putting aside the rabid proponent's of obviously radical beliefs, there is a lot of evidence, archaeological, historical, linguistic and heraldic, that points to the Western nations, as having an Israelite heritage. The ancient Israelites migrated from the Caucasus area, across Europe. They left 'waymarks', Jeremiah 31:21; dolmens that are still there today.
So there IS a secret; one that God keeps to Himself and it is best for us to not be too sure about it either way, as only as things unfold, will we know the whole truth.

I realize that the existence of another Israel, than those who call themselves Jewish Israel, makes a problem for those who want God to take them to heaven, while 'Israel' stays in the Great Tribulation. Tough!
 

Enoch111

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I realize that the existence of another Israel, than those who call themselves Jewish Israel, makes a problem for those who want God to take them to heaven...
Keraz,

What is your problem with going to Heaven? Are you so bound to the earth that you are fearful of Heaven? Don't you know that ALL the OT saints and ALL the NT saints who died are now in Heaven, very much awake and alive?

It is not a matter of "wanting God to take them to Heaven". That is God's express will, so why are you fighting God's will?
 

Lady Crosstalk

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Keraz,

What is your problem with going to Heaven? Are you so bound to the earth that you are fearful of Heaven? Don't you know that ALL the OT saints and ALL the NT saints who died are now in Heaven, very much awake and alive?

It is not a matter of "wanting God to take them to Heaven". That is God's express will, so why are you fighting God's will?


Yes--Jesus argued with the Sadducees who did not believe in an afterlife. His response to them is recorded in Luke 20:37-38 and Mark 12:27. In the Luke passage, Jesus said, "But now, as to whether the dead will be raised--even Moses proved this when he wrote about the burning bush. Long after Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had died, he referred to the Lord as 'the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' So He is the God of the living, not the dead, for they are all alive to Him.”

And where would they be alive except in heaven (or Paradise)??
 
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Copperhead

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Those who like to denigrate British Israelites and other theories about the whereabouts of the 10 Northern tribes, have never properly researched the facts.

Not sure any human derived historical "facts" can supersede 2 Chronicles, Ezra, and Nehemiah in my perception. And one really doesn't have to denigrate the British Israelite concept. It denigrates itself by avoidance of the evidence in scripture.

Nehemiah 9:1-2 Now on the twenty-fourth day of this month the children of Israel were assembled with fasting, in sackcloth, and with dust on their heads. 2 Then those of Israelite lineage separated themselves from all foreigners; and they stood and confessed their sins and the iniquities of their fathers

Nehemiah 11:3-4 These are the heads of the province who dwelt in Jerusalem. (But in the cities of Judah everyone dwelt in his own possession in their cities—Israelites, priests, Levites, Nethinim, and descendants of Solomon's servants.) 4 Also in Jerusalem dwelt some of the children of Judah and of the children of Benjamin.

Ezra 10:5 Then Ezra arose, and made the leaders of the priests, the Levites, and all Israel swear an oath that they would do according to this word. So they swore an oath.

Ezra 9:1 When these things were done, the leaders came to me, saying, “The people of Israel and the priests and the Levites have not separated themselves from the peoples of the lands, with respect to the abominations of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians, and the Amorites.

Ezra 8:35 The children of those who had been carried away captive, who had come from the captivity, offered burnt offerings to the God of Israel: twelve bulls for all Israel, ninety-six rams, seventy-seven lambs, and twelve male goats as a sin offering. All this was a burnt offering to the Lord.

Ezra 8:25 and weighed out to them the silver, the gold, and the articles, the offering for the house of our God which the king and his counselors and his princes, and all Israel who were present, had offered.

And throwing in 2 Chronicles, before the captivity of the northern kingdom and the exile...

2 Chronicles 30:11 Nevertheless some from Asher, Manasseh, and Zebulun humbled themselves and came to Jerusalem.

2 Chronicles 11:13-14 And from all their territories the priests and the Levites who were in all Israel took their stand with him. 14 For the Levites left their common-lands and their possessions and came to Judah and Jerusalem, for Jeroboam and his sons had rejected them from serving as priests to the Lord.

2 Chronicles 11:16 And after the Levites left, those from all the tribes of Israel, such as set their heart to seek the Lord God of Israel, came to Jerusalem to sacrifice to the Lord God of their fathers.

2 Chronicles 15:9 Then he gathered all Judah and Benjamin, and those who dwelt with them from Ephraim, Manasseh, and Simeon, for they came over to him in great numbers from Israel when they saw that the Lord his God was with him.

2 Chronicles 34:9 When they came to Hilkiah the high priest, they delivered the money that was brought into the house of God, which the Levites who kept the doors had gathered from the hand of Manasseh and Ephraim, from all the remnant of Israel, from all Judah and Benjamin, and which they had brought back to Jerusalem.

This is not an exhaustive list of supporting passages, but it does get the idea across that there are no lost tribes that drifted off somewhere. They were all present in the southern kingdom to varying degrees and were known, likewise they were all represented in the different remnant returns from the Babylonian exile.

So then, it becomes a simple choice for me.... follow the imaginings of various human historians with an agenda or the scripture. Seems like an easy choice.

The NT shows 4 tribes known. The 2 Chronicles specifically show 8 named tribes and those not mentioned are covered in "all Israel" statements in those 3 books. And with 8 named as present and accounted for in those passages, it becomes pretty tough to say 10 of the 12 were lost.
 
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Copperhead

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They left 'waymarks', Jeremiah 31:21; dolmens that are still there today.

I believe the context in Isaiah is the future Babylonian exile. The chapter talks about both Israel and Judah coming back. As the passages in Ezra and Nehemiah show, that did happen.
 

Davy

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But the Noahic Covenant and the Abrahamic covenant were never part of the Sinai Covenant which never affected them.

Well, that's where you have been wrongly taught by doctrines of men. The promises God gave to Israel are... the Birthright promises God first gave through Abraham. Many have not learned what it actually was that God first gave through Abraham, and that it did not stop with Abraham, but continued all the way down to Joseph's son Ephraim, where it still is today (1 Chron.5). Judah was to keep the royal sceptre and law, which is still true even today (Gen.49:10), just the throne is not in Jerusalem since God removed it from there.

The old covenant is dead. Like Apostle Paul said in Galatians 3, the law was added because of transgressions. It was never meant to provide eternal Life. Only the Promise by Faith on Jesus Christ given Abraham was meant to give eternal Life. The promises God gave to Israel, minus what Jesus nailed on His cross, have still continued today, and are now contained in the New Covenant, not the old. And what part of national Israel is in the New Covenant? Only those in Christ Jesus by Faith, and not by birth. And the believing Gentiles are graffed in, according to Apostle Paul, as he even used the label "commonwealth of Israel" for the Gentiles in Ephesians 2.

So your vain attempt to isolate the Sinai covenant given through Moses apart from the promises God gave Abraham, just does not work. And the covenant God gave through Noah with the rainbow as a token sign, is for all... creation, and only involves a promise not to destroy the earth again with a flood. God didn't promise He wouldn't destroy the earth again; instead He showed us through His servants He will do exactly that once again, but this next time by His consuming fire! So really, you're bringing that up really is just fodder in what we've been talking about.
 

Davy

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The those from the northern tribes that migrated southward is shown via several occurrences in 2 Chronicles. Before the Babylonian exile all the tribes had been commingled.

No they were not commingled. That is a lie and I'm pretty sure you know it. The MAJORITY of the ten northern tribes of the northern "kingdom of Israel" were already GONE... out of the land, by the time the southern kingdom of Judah went into the Babylon captivity!


2 Kings 17:1-2
17:1 In the twelfth year of Ahaz king of Judah began Hoshea the son of Elah to reign in Samaria over Israel nine years.
2 And he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD, but not as the kings of Israel that were before him.
KJV


This was around 611 B.C. when the Assyrians took the ten tribes of the northern kingdom captive.
Ahaz is king of Judah (southern kingdom) at this point in history. Hoshea is king over the ten northern tribe kingdom with its capital in the northern lands at Samaria. TWO separate kings with TWO kingdoms there.

2 Kings 17:4-13
4 And the king of Assyria found conspiracy in Hoshea: for he had sent messengers to So king of Egypt, and brought no present to the king of Assyria, as he had done year by year: therefore the king of Assyria shut him up, and bound him in prison.
5 Then the king of Assyria came up throughout all the land, and went up to Samaria, and besieged it three years.
6 In the ninth year of Hoshea the king of Assyria took Samaria, and carried Israel away into Assyria, and placed them in Halah and in Habor by the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes.


The king of Assyria removed the ten northern tribe "kingdom of Israel" out of the holy lands, and instead "into Assyria, and placed them in Halah and in Habor by the river Gozan, and in the citites of the Medes." The kingdom of Judah (Jews) remained in the land. This was approximately 611 B.C.


7 For so it was, that the children of Israel had sinned against the LORD their God, Which had brought them up out of the land of Egypt, from under the hand of Pharoah king of Egypt, and had feared other gods,

In these passages, "Israel" is put for the northern ten tribe kingdom at Samaria, and "Judah" is put for the southern kingdom at Jerusalem.


8 And walked in the statutes of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out from before the children of Israel, and of the kings of Israel, which they had made.
9 And the children of Israel did secretly those things that were not right against the LORD their God, and they built them high places in all their cities, from the tower of the watchmen to the fenced city.
10 And they set them up images and groves in every high hill, and under every green tree:
11 And there they burnt incense in all the high places, as did the heathen whom the LORD carried away before them; and wrought wicked things to provoke the LORD to anger:
12 For they served idols, whereof the LORD had said unto them, 'Ye shall not do this thing.'
13 Yet the LORD testified against Israel, and against Judah, by all the prophets, and by all the seers, saying, Turn ye from your evil ways, and keep My commandments and My statutes, according to all the law which I commanded your fathers, and which I sent to you by My servants the prophets.

KJV

2 Kings 17:18-19
18 Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of His sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only.

19 Also Judah kept not the commandments of the LORD their God, but walked in the statutes of Israel which they made.
KJV


Once again, the removal of the ten tribes of the northern "kingdom of Israel" took place around 611 B.C. The "kingdom of Judah" remained in the southern lands in Judea and were not taken captive by the kings of Assyria. Those Scripture examples make a distinction between the two kingdoms, calling one "Israel" and the other "Judah".


2 Kings 17:22-23
22 For the children of Israel walked in all the sins of Jeroboam which he did; they departed not from them;
23 Until the LORD removed Israel out of his sight, as he had said by all his servants the prophets. So was Israel carried away out of their own land to Assyria unto this day.
KJV


King Jeroboam was king over the northern ten tribe "kingdom of Israel". Jeroboam was of the tribe of Ephraim, and originally was put as overseer in the northern by Solomon. But God split old Israel and gave ten tribes to Jeroboam (1 Kings 11). It is impossible... to miss this Bible history starting in 1 Kings 11.

Jerusalem was taken by Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, around 477 B.C. That is when "Judah" (southern kingdom) was taken captive to Babylon for 70 years, a separate captivity from Israel's. The ten tribes had already been gone for about 130 years when Judah was taken.

This reveals your lie, for it shows the majority of the ten tribes were NOT "commingled" back with Judah, but were removed into their own captivity by the kings of Assyria about 130 years prior to Judah's captivity by the king of Babylon for 70 years. (Can you say 'king of Assyria', and can you say, 'king of Babylon'? That's two different... kings and times!)

And per Ezra, only a portion of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi returned after their 70 years captivity...

Ezra 1:2-5
2 Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.
3 Who is there among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of the LORD God of Israel, (he is the God,) which is in Jerusalem.
4 And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering for the house of God that is in Jerusalem.
5 Then rose up the chief of the fathers of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests, and the Levites, with all them whose spirit God had raised, to go up to build the house of the LORD which is in Jerusalem.

KJV
 

Davy

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If Paul was of Benjamin the how could he be a Pharisee? This may be a stupid question.

Not a stupid question, just one that shows lack of study in OT history. So can't really make the answer real short.

You really mean, how could Paul be born of the tribe of Benjamin and also be a Jew, right?

The Pharisees and scribes were Jews. But foreigners and strangers living in Judea also called themselves Jews. King Herod who had tried to have baby Jesus murdered, he himself was known as a Jew, but he actually was an Idumean, born of Esau, Jacob's elder brother. Herod had been appointed by the Romans as a puppet king.

The title 'Jew' originates from the tribe of Judah (per Jewish historian Josephus, 100 A.D.). When God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms, the tribes of Judah and Benjamin stuck together as the southern kingdom at Jerusalem. Those became the Jews. When king Jeroboam, which God put over the northern ten tribe "kingdom of Israel", setup idol worship in the north, and common priests of the people, the Levites in the north went south, and joined with the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. So the southern "kingdom of Judah" was a 3-tribe kingdom with its capital city at Jerusalem. The northern "kingdom of Israel" was a ten tribe kingdom in the north, with its capital city at Samaria. The two kingdoms then held war against each other.

Because the Jews were the southern kingdom, and included foreigners that lived in those lands of Judea, that is how those of the tribe of Benjamin and Levi also became known as Jews. Josephus said all those who returned to Judea from the Babylon captivity took that name, including the strangers that returned with them.

Thus Apostle Paul said he was a Jew, born of the tribe of Benjamin. He was both because of the history above.
 
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Davy

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I believe the context in Isaiah is the future Babylonian exile. The chapter talks about both Israel and Judah coming back. As the passages in Ezra and Nehemiah show, that did happen.

No, it did not... happen back in history. The ten tribes are still scattered today, because like Keraz revealed, the Ezekiel 37 prophecy of the two sticks is yet to occur, and it requires the two houses to be separate in order to be fulfilled. And that is not the only OT Scripture which speaks of the ten tribes being gathered at the end of this world.
 

Keraz

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Keraz,

What is your problem with going to Heaven? Are you so bound to the earth that you are fearful of Heaven? Don't you know that ALL the OT saints and ALL the NT saints who died are now in Heaven, very much awake and alive?

It is not a matter of "wanting God to take them to Heaven". That is God's express will, so why are you fighting God's will?
All people, including the saints, lie in their graves awaiting the Day they stand before God on His Great White Throne. Eccl 9:6, Job 14:10, Psalms 22:29, Hebrews 9:27, +
Nowhere does the Bible say there are living people in heaven, that is false teaching.

I do not dislike the idea of going to heaven, it would be 'heavenly' !
But I know from scripture what it is that God wants His people to do and we can't do it if we aren't here.

Realize this: there is only one way that the end times will come to pass. Believing the wrong way is not a salvation issue, so maybe you will be able, in heaven, to say to me: I told you so. It would be a nice surprise for me.
Conversely, if we all remain on earth, being tested and having to stand firm in our faith during terrible times, then it will be what I expected and was prepared for, while some of those who believed in an escape, may lose their faith.
I believe the context in Isaiah is the future Babylonian exile. The chapter talks about both Israel and Judah coming back. As the passages in Ezra and Nehemiah show, that did happen.
Those dolmens and Israelite graves are scattered across Europe, not the Middle East.
There is plenty of proofs about who and where the House of Israel is today. But it is not in the interest of mainstream science to promote it, In fact they actively conceal it; which is what God decreed anyway- that they be hidden among the nations.
For the time being, we Christians are the Spiritual Israel of God. The Overcomers for Him, in this fallen world.
 

Copperhead

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No they were not commingled. That is a lie and I'm pretty sure you know it. The MAJORITY of the ten northern tribes of the northern "kingdom of Israel" were already GONE... out of the land, by the time the southern kingdom of Judah went into the Babylon captivity!

Except if one also includes the archeological records that have been found, King Sargon of Assyria only deported about 28,000 of the northern kingdom when He conquered it. Along with 50 chariots.

And there has always been a Hebrew presence in Samaria (area of the northern kingdom). Likewise, there has always been a Hebrew presence in the Judea. There never has been a time when the land was devoid of a Hebrew remnant. That also is documented fact.

And I provided many passages from 2 Chronicles, Ezra, and Nehemiah the unequivocally show that all the tribes were represented together before the Babylonian exile and afterward. And one doesn't have to do any scripture twisting to show it. I thought it was rather clear.

But if you chose to see it another way, that's ok. I am firmly convinced of what the scripture says on the matter. We will surely find out the reality one day. In many ways, we probably all will be wrong to one degree or another. And on the points we are wrong, we will not be able to maneuver our way out of it. Thankfully, Abba is merciful to those who trust Him and understands our limited understanding. Only arrogance offends Him.

Regarding Ezekiel 37, I am convinced that has happened right before our eyes. It could be that denying the Israel we see sitting in the middle east could be a grievous error. It was told that they would be gathered initially in unbelief. Again, that could be wrong, but when one looks at Ezekiel 4 and Leviticus 26 and works the years out mathematically, May of 1948 definitely fits the scripture. And YHVH has a love for doing things on a specific time schedule.

And I would be careful in how you toss around accusations. Saying that the concept I showed is a lie. That means that I have malicious intent to deceive. That was a capital offense in ancient temple days. You are dangerously close to making yourself out to be equal with God in passing judgement. Likewise, to make such accusations implies you have a total lock on what is the truth. You are just another sheep in the pasture like the rest of us. And as a person who grew up on a farm dealign with a LOT of livestock, I can attest that sheep are some of the dumbest animals on the planet. I could be in error to some degree regarding this topic, but lying, that is making accusations that can be very dangerous to the one making them. Tread lightly. Just a friendly warning.
 
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Copperhead

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Thus Apostle Paul said he was a Jew, born of the tribe of Benjamin. He was both because of the history above.

And Paul also called himself and Israelite and that all Israel were his brethren.

Romans 9:3-4 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises;

Romans 11:1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Paul puts all tribes, including Judah and Benjamin, in the category of being Israelites. He provides none of the distinction that seems to pervade modern theological thought. From his comments, I would be safe to say that I am probably more right than wrong regarding the commingling of the tribes as shown in 2 Chronicles, Ezra, and Nehemiah.
 
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Davy

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Except if one also includes the archeological records that have been found, King Sargon of Assyria only deported about 28,000 of the northern kingdom when He conquered it. Along with 50 chariots.
....

Here we go again, creating false evidence. You can't find anywhere in God's Holy Writ that backs up your theories, so now you have to try and force outside info into, which of course brings a whole other debate depending on which translations and archaeologists are consulted.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-mLloWkQNfa4/U5Pze5HDsII/AAAAAAAAay0/fo_fvl3SC44/s1600/a.jpg

10 tribal chieftans of the northern kingdom of Israel is all that is shown on the Behistun rock. It's because the ten northern tribes went into their OWN separate captivity before the Jews of the southern kingdom did.
 

Davy

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And Paul also called himself and Israelite and that all Israel were his brethren.

Romans 9:3-4 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises;

Romans 11:1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Paul puts all tribes, including Judah and Benjamin, in the category of being Israelites. He provides none of the distinction that seems to pervade modern theological thought. From his comments, I would be safe to say that I am probably more right than wrong regarding the commingling of the tribes as shown in 2 Chronicles, Ezra, and Nehemiah.

Of course those of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi are also Israelites, simply because their father was Jacob, just as Jacob was father of the other ten tribes too, and God gave Jacob the new name 'Israel'. So all 12 tribes are Israelites. BUT NOT ALL 12 TRIBES ARE JEWS! The title of Jew only applied to those of the southern "kingdom of Judah".

It would take pages to paste all the Bible Scriptures that show the existence of the two separate kingdoms of the "house of Judah" and the "house of Israel".

Yet you seem awful busy trying to hide that split God did of old Israel into two separate kingdoms. That's just not going to happen; you cannot hide it.
 

Copperhead

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Here we go again, creating false evidence. You can't find anywhere in God's Holy Writ that backs up your theories, so now you have to try and force outside info into, which of course brings a whole other debate depending on which translations and archaeologists are consulted.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-mLloWkQNfa4/U5Pze5HDsII/AAAAAAAAay0/fo_fvl3SC44/s1600/a.jpg

10 tribal chieftans of the northern kingdom of Israel is all that is shown on the Behistun rock. It's because the ten northern tribes went into their OWN separate captivity before the Jews of the southern kingdom did.

You have appealed to all sorts of imaginings of man and even hinted at conspiracy theories iregarding the 10 lost tribe stuff. Even after I showed scripturally 8 of the tribes specifically mentioned as being commingled and references to all Israel being represented.

As for my assertion about King Sargon only carting off 28,000 and 50 chariots.... Biblical Archeology, V1, 1943, P58. Look it up.

In 2 Chronicles, King Hezekiah and King Josiah both issued a call for all Israel to come to Jerusalem over 80 years after the Assyrian conquest. Kinda hard to justify they were all carted off when the the petition is going out for those of the northern tribes to join with the southern tribes.

I guess my main question would be, what is it about the idea of no lost tribes that causes some to get all tied up in knots? Why would one even worry about it if they think there is no longer any physical Israelites? Curious. I keep getting that Shakespeare feeling... “me thinks ye doest protest too much”.
 
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Keraz

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It would take pages to paste all the Bible Scriptures that show the existence of the two separate kingdoms of the "house of Judah" and the "house of Israel".
The Prophets carefully maintain the separation between the two Houses; Judah and Israel. In 160 scriptures.
That small numbers did join with Judah, does not prove a total rejoining.

The really obvious thing about this separation, is how the tribes fulfilled the prophesies of Moses and Jacob about them. In no way did Judah; possess the gates of their enemies, or become as many as the sands of the seas.

Right CH, we do not need to be overly concerned about this issue, but plainly God is. Amos 9:8-9
But if people do think the only Israel is those apostate, etc, etc people in a very small part of the holy Land, then that belief leads to further errors and misunderstandings.
 
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Copperhead

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All people, including the saints, lie in their graves awaiting the Day they stand before God on His Great White Throne.

I don't believe so, as being redeemed by its very nature means passed from death to life. There is no condemnation for those in Yeshua. The one who is part of the body doesn't face the GWT. The GWT is a prosecutorial judgement. The believer does face a judgment, but it is on rewards for faithful service. That is in the Greek, the "bema" seat judgement. And none of the verses you used for reference say any different. They just suggest judgement but do not say what judgement is occurring. And none of them say there is only one resurrection either.

If one carefully looks at the passage in Revelation 20 regarding the GWT, there is no indication there that any who undergo the GWT are ever granted eternal life. Not like all other judgements we see throughout the NT like the Matthew 25 events where people are divided into groups, with one group being condemned and the other not. It does say that those not found in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire, but there is no indication that anyone at the GWT is found in the book of life.

I am convinced that the GWT is a prosecutorial judgment that makes the case that YHVH is just in His condemnation. It uses the persons works against them and caps it off with showing them they are not in the Book of Life. There will be no way for anyone to make up any excuses and no one will be able to argue that the penalty is unjust.
 
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Lady Crosstalk

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I don't believe so, as being redeemed by its very nature means passed from death to life. There is no condemnation for those in Yeshua. The one who is part of the body doesn't face the GWT. The GWT is a prosecutorial judgement. The believer does face a judgment, but it is on rewards for faithful service. That is in the Greek, the "bema" seat judgement. And none of the verses you used for reference say any different. They just suggest judgement but do not say what judgement is occurring. And none of them say there is only one resurrection either.

If one carefully looks at the passage in Revelation 20 regarding the GWT, there is no indication there that any who undergo the GWT are ever granted eternal life. Not like all other judgements we see throughout the NT like the Matthew 25 events where people are divided into groups, with one group being condemned and the other not. It does say that those not found in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire, but there is no indication that anyone at the GWT is found in the book of life.

I am convinced that the GWT is a prosecutorial judgment that makes the case that YHVH is just in His condemnation. It uses the persons works against them and caps it off with showing them they are not in the Book of Life. There will be no way for anyone to make up any excuses and no one will be able to argue that the penalty is unjust.

Yes, I agree. There are only two resurrections: the resurrection to life--i.e. "the First Resurrection"--even though it is a bit drawn out because the Two Witnesses are also resurrected as, I believe, all of the Tribulation martyrs are. They will help to rule the Millennial Kingdom. The Second Resurrection will be separated from the 1st Resurrection by at least 1000 years and is apparently a resurrection to death (the Second Death-->Revelation 20:14). There may be a slight suggestion that some who show up at the GWTJ are granted clemency, if they never heard the gospel and if their names are found written in the Book of Life. Those who will be condemned will be condemned on the basis of their sin. It is as though God says, "Okay--you refused to accept my Son's authority over your life and His sacrifice for your sin. Then my justice demands that you must pay for your own sin."

On the other hand, the "Judgment Seat of Christ" (also called the Bema Judgment) is a judgment of reward. In ancient sporting competitions, the contest judge would sit on the Bema seat and judge the athletes. He would hand out rewards from the Bema seat. There will be rewards (or not) for acts done out of love for Christ. The works of the saints will be judged--they will either be judged to be of gold, silver and precious jewels, or of wood, hay and stubble--fit only to be burned.

At the End of the Day of the Lord, NO ONE WILL SAY THAT GOD IS NOT JUST. Amen?
 

Copperhead

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The really obvious thing about this separation, is how the tribes fulfilled the prophesies of Moses and Jacob about them. In no way did Judah; possess the gates of their enemies, or become as many as the sands of the seas.

Your reference in Amos 9:8-9 is talking about the entire 12 tribes. House of Jacob. Israel is the alternative name for Jacob. Jacob is the patriarch of all the tribes. You cannot make the case for northern kingdom Israel using those verses. It is a misapplication. Just because one sees the name "Israel" does not automatically make it talking about only the northern kingdom group.

It would appear that those advocating a lost tribes scenario are setting the text book example of circular reasoning. They are assuming that Israel is like the sands of the seashore since it has been disbursed to make up the nations of the earth and that makes the nations like the sand of the seashore because they are made up of Israel. Dealt with that in college a lot. We know the age of the rock strata based on the fossils in it. And how we base the age of the fossils is by the rock strata they are found in. I hated that aspect of historical geology. And the lost tribes theories use the exact same logic. If one cannot dazzle everyone with brilliance, then baffle them with Bull..... I'll let others fill in the blank as I am sure they know where that was going.

While I will agree that all the tribes have been dispersed throughout the world to one degree or another, that in no way means they assimilated to the extent to make them the core of those national entities. As history has shown, they did a pretty darn good job of maintaining their Hebrew distinction. And I believe YHVH intended that. Else how could the crusaders, the Nazis, the Tzars, the Communists, etc all be able to identify Jews to harass and kill? So to counter that, some will just go running off into the twilight zone and make the accusation that anyone who claims to be a physical Hebrew is an imposter and liar in an attempt to make their case.

And if the Hebrews couldn't maintain that identity separate from the nations, then Hosea 5:14-15 in conjunction with Matthew 23:37-39 could not be realized in the future. And it is the one thing that determines when Yeshua will return to rule on this earth.

This topic is like dealing with an ornery agnostic. A respectable agnostic will say he doesn't know if God exists, but is open to the evidence. A ornery agnostic is one who says they don't know if God exists, but then turns around and says no one else can know either and can't prove it. For that person, the argument dies under the hand of a thousand conditions. And that is what goes on with Dominion theology, two house theology, two covenant theology, kingdom now theology, and the entire gamut of theologies that talk about lost tribes and deny physical Israel that is distinct from the nations and includes all the tribes.

As I have exampled in 2 Corinthians, Ezra, and Nehemiah that show all the tribes of Israel and Judah were represented together both before the Babylonian exile and afterward. All anyone can do is come up with assumed markers and graves scattered around that prove beyond all measure that the 10 tribes migrated and were lost. And conspiracy theories about how science is trying to hide this 10 lost tribe stuff even though it was disproved in the 3 books I referenced.

It also fails to understand the history of the Assyrian Empire and most empires of that area. Captives were a valuable commodity. They were just not going to allow those captives to go drifting off across the planet on their own. And according to archeological evidence, there was not the dispersion of the tribes by Assyria. It is estimated that the northern kingdom contains roughly 400,000+ people. The records indication Sargon only displace about 28,000.