Righteous is as righteous does.

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Episkopos

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Wow! Most unusual!

Wait . . . are you so certain about that? That you are so different? I mean, well, where do you see in the Bible born again believers who are being baptized in the Spirit?

Hm.

Now, this "walking in Zion", is that like being "caught up to the third heaven"? Am I on the right track here?


Zion is in the Spirit. The throne room is in the 3rd heaven. I have been there only once for maybe 20 seconds or so.
 

Episkopos

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So then what happens at the end, if you don't have enough good works, Jesus pulls out? And that could happen to you?


What do you mean by Jesus pulling out or enough good works? That has nothing to do with what I'm writing about.
 

marks

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Zion is in the Spirit. The throne room is in the 3rd heaven. I have been there only once for maybe 20 seconds or so.
So what does it mean to be in Zion?

As far as the throne room, I'm surprised, only 20 seconds or so? God invites much more than that! Be bold!

Much love!
Mark
 
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marks

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What do you mean by Jesus pulling out or enough good works? That has nothing to do with what I'm writing about.

You've said that you don't know if you are saved or not until God tells you after you're dead, was that right?

I think you also said then that Jesus is in you, and remains in you.

So I'm quite naturally wondering what happens when you die, and, God forbid, He tells you that you are not actually justified. You said that was possible, right?

You don't know if you will be accepted or not. We can't say whether we are justified or not. God alone does that. And you don't know what He will say. Am I getting this right?

So then, if Jesus in in you, and remains in you, what happens should you not be accepted? Does that mean then that Jesus leaves you?

Much love!
Mark
 

marks

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I walked in Zion in the Spirit near 40 years ago now for the first time. :) I was baptized in the Spirit at the same time as being born anew by the Spirit. So then my experience was both Christ in me AND me in Christ. That is unusual. Many people only learn to enter Christ after some time...and a lot of people never do so...always just walking in their own power.

I want to come back to this. Why is it that you think your experience "both Christ in my AND me in Christ" is unusual? That's what normally happens when people are born again.

We are baptized into Christ, and Christ comes to live in us. We are in Him, He is in us. That's normal Christianity.

Much love!
Mark
 

VictoryinJesus

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I am an unprofitable servant.

What do you hear there? Consider: They asked for Him to increase their “faith”. This was before the very thing your thread is speaking of: fruit of the Spirit. Faith without the works of God is dead. His response to their wanting Him to increase their faith was not...wait and see the boldness you will received to testify of My name after the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It was Luke 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

You meantioned goats/sheep. Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. — even if you say this is yet future and another says different...the unprofitable servant goes into outer darkness. That is what your thread is on, yeah? We are not unprofitable servants. That would be works of the flesh which are unprofitable. Not the born again of God, Spirit.

Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it . —remember they asked Him “increase our faith” and how many times He said “Where is your faith?” (Luke 8:25) O ye of little faith. (Matthew 6:30)

Hebrews 12:9-10 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us , and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? [10] For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

John 6:63
[63] It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

The children born from above profit Life.

Hebrews 9:14
[14] How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? (dead works) same as “unprofitable” but unprofitable servants are before “born again” of the Spirit.

Hebrews 13:9-10 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein. [10] We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.

John 4:23-24
[23] But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. [24] God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The spirit(the born again) hidden man renewed in the heart serves God, profitable unto all. The outward man perishes (the unprofitable servant)
Philippians 3:3-4
[3] For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. [4] Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

“Increase our faith”... the change after they walked in the Spirit. Lord, help us to be profitable, no longer of dead works but free to serve the living God. lastly, it is not our “duty” as the carnal Law commanded but of the Spirit which is: “For I delight in the law of God after the inward man” (Romans 7:22). Without Charity ...it profits nothing.
 
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Episkopos

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What do you hear there? Consider: They asked for Him to increase their “faith”. This was before the very thing your thread is speaking of: fruit of the Spirit. Faith without the works of God is dead. His response to their wanting Him to increase their faith was not...wait and see the boldness you will received to testify of My name after the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It was Luke 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

You meantioned goats/sheep. Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. — even if you say this is yet future and another says different...the unprofitable servant goes into outer darkness. That is what your thread is on, yeah? We are not unprofitable servants. That would be works of the flesh which are unprofitable. Not the born again of God, Spirit.

Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it . —remember they asked Him “increase our faith” and how many times He said “Where is your faith?” (Luke 8:25) O ye of little faith. (Matthew 6:30)

Hebrews 12:9-10 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us , and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? [10] For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

John 6:63
[63] It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

The children born from above profit Life.

Hebrews 9:14
[14] How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? (dead works) same as “unprofitable” but unprofitable servants are before “born again” of the Spirit.

Hebrews 13:9-10 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein. [10] We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.

John 4:23-24
[23] But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. [24] God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The spirit(the born again) hidden man renewed in the heart serves God, profitable unto all. The outward man perishes (the unprofitable servant)
Philippians 3:3-4
[3] For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. [4] Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

“Increase our faith”... the change after they walked in the Spirit. Lord, help us to be profitable, no longer of dead works but free to serve the living God. lastly, it is not our “duty” as the carnal Law commanded but of the Spirit which is: “For I delight in the law of God after the inward man” (Romans 7:22). Without Charity ...it profits nothing.


Luke 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.
 

quietthinker

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Is the lack of comprehension willful? Or is it indoctrination? Is it a lack of attention...A.D.D.?
Good question. I think some of us crayons have lack lustre as a result of either all or some of those things. One thing is clear, those that have a heart for righteousness will behave righteously whether their pencils are sharp by human standards or no.

I know for myself that I desire a better memory, forgetfulness being a real thorn in the side.

I am persuaded however that lack of comprehension for a person who has had sufficient exposure to God's Words is the result of shutting their eyes and blocking their ears because of inconvenience. The love of their sin is greater than that of righteousness. They have sufficiently manipulated their understanding so that sin no longer appears sinful or at least not serious. They might speak great swelling words of piety and quote infinitum but God knows their hearts and before long others will also.
 
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quietthinker

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@Episkopos,

You do not need to answer my questions to you.

I understand that you preach a "works holiness" sort of doctrine, and set your own personal holiness above the others. Certainly above mine! Is that not true? Can you freely and openly admit to that?

You believe you are more righteous than I? More holy then me?

Is this what you think?

This is all a big competition to see who can look the best?

Much love!
Mark
Here we go!... without reading/hearing/comprehension skills misinterpretation is sure to follow.....furthermore, unjustified accusations are the natural extension of those that feel threatened.
 
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Episkopos

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Here we go!... without reading/hearing/comprehension skills misinterpretation is sure to follow.....furthermore, unjustified accusations are the natural extension of those that feel threatened.


It's unfortunate that some people look for clarity not for brotherly purposes or for any kind of honest goal...but to attack and insult....such is the pride that motivates this kind of conduct.

I think that this statement by @marks says it all...This is all a big competition to see who can look the best? Here is a defining thought that sets all his other comments into sharp focus.

Very sad... :(

I have been honest and willing...in spite of the bad faith shown to me....willing to give the benefit of the doubt to a newer member. After all one must not be quick to judge.

Perhaps now that the motives have been exposed, a different approach might be in order...one with a little humility, grace and love. IOW more like a real Christian.

In the meantime, the signature of "much love" would appear to be hypocrisy. There are members here who operate in actual love.
 

marks

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It's unfortunate that some people look for clarity not for brotherly purposes or for any kind of honest goal...but to attack and insult....such is the pride that motivates this kind of conduct.

I think that this statement by @marks says it all...This is all a big competition to see who can look the best? Here is a defining thought that sets all his other comments into sharp focus.

Very sad... :(

I have been honest and willing...in spite of the bad faith shown to me....willing to give the benefit of the doubt to a newer member. After all one must not be quick to judge.

Perhaps now that the motives have been exposed, a different approach might be in order...one with a little humility, grace and love. IOW more like a real Christian.

In the meantime, the signature of "much love" would appear to be hypocrisy. There are members here who operate in actual love.

Wow!

I'm going to have to process this a bit.

Boy do you pounce! Frankly, I'm astounded.

One thing is, in this post of yours, you exonerate yourself from answering every hard question I'm asking. Makes me wonder if that is what is behind this onslaught.

I'm going to come back to this. But after some thought.

Even so in love,

Mark
 
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marks

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I think that this statement by @marks says it all...This is all a big competition to see who can look the best? Here is a defining thought that sets all his other comments into sharp focus.

You understand, don't you, that this is a question I've asked you, if this is how you think.

If you want to pluck that out of it's context, and wave it about as some banner under which you no longer need respond to this 'hypocrit', you most certainly can do that. Of course, you never were under any requirement to reply anyway.

Honest and willing? You seem most unwilling to me. Do you realize how many questions I've asked that you've not responded to?

Are you having in mind how many times I've rebutted your assertions without any response but to dodge?

And my "dishonest goal"? What is that exactly, if not to let people know that all of us have received the same from our Father, upon our rebirth, that allows us to live holy before our God? None of us have some special footing over the others. We are all of the same Spirit, that is, if we are of the same Spirit.

Honesty of discussion is necessary for it to exist, otherwise we're just spinning in circles.

"More like a real Christian."

Perhaps that could be the next thread.

What exactly is a real Christian?

You don't have to respond to my posts, but you are of course free to do so.

It is sad, sad that someone has to feel that they need to misrepresent another to bootstrap themself up higher. Is that what righteousness does? Very sad.

Much love!
mark
 

marks

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Good question. I think some of us crayons have lack lustre as a result of either all or some of those things. One thing is clear, those that have a heart for righteousness will behave righteously whether their pencils are sharp by human standards or no.

I know for myself that I desire a better memory, forgetfulness being a real thorn in the side.

I am persuaded however that lack of comprehension for a person who has had sufficient exposure to God's Words is the result of shutting their eyes and blocking their ears because of inconvenience. The love of their sin is greater than that of righteousness. They have sufficiently manipulated their understanding so that sin no longer appears sinful or at least not serious. They might speak great swelling words of piety and quote infinitum but God knows their hearts and before long others will also.

Hi quietthinker,

I fully agree with you, those that have a heart for righteousness will behave righteously, I'd add, as best they can. Yes, we all have things that stand against us, like poor memory, or whatever it may be.

I like to point out that these things are weaknesses of our flesh, and are overcome by our faith.

God in me, living through me, is sufficient for me. No matter what my weakness, what my lack, whether mental or emotional, or physical, material, financial, whatever it may be, ceases to matter when we submit under the mighty hand of God.

And yes, I believe also that what is secret will become known.

Remember, Jesus is the One Who knows our real motives. He's promised to set it all to rights when He returns.

Much love!
mark
 
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Soverign Grace

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Now this statement may appear to be easy to understand and accept....but in todays religious anti-truth quagmire...it has become unacceptable.

So then this is a good place to examine the distance that so many have fallen away from the teachings of Jesus. May this examination lead some people to reconnect with Jesus Christ and the truth HE testifies of.

Is a humble person seen as humble because they act in humility? Should we allow ourselves to be indoctrinated to think otherwise?

If a person acts with mercy, are they not to be seen as merciful? Does not the adjective inform the noun?

So then up is still up and down is still down....even in the church?

Is a person who acts with righteousness a righteous person?...ok watch here we go with the fanatical Phariseeism of our time. (Righteousness is a key word that brings up an indoctrinated and hypnotic response)..cue religious comments that are erroneously plucked from the bible.

The simple truth is that righteous is as righteous does.

I've never heard that quote before but it's a good one: "today's religions anti-truth quagmire."

I'm unsure what you mean though - is a person who acts with righteousness a righteous person? Can you explain it more?
 

Episkopos

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I've never heard that quote before but it's a good one: "today's religions anti-truth quagmire."

I'm unsure what you mean though - is a person who acts with righteousness a righteous person? Can you explain it more?


We are what we do. And we reap what we sow. If we show mercy towards others, God will show us mercy. If we judge others then we too with that same measure we will be judged.

The bible speaks of 2 kinds of righteousness....ours and God's. These are on different levels because of different strengths. But if these remain in context then they are both good. It is never wrong to do what is right. What is wrong is to justify yourself....either by your works OR your beliefs.
 
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marks

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The bible speaks of 2 kinds of righteousness....ours and God's.

Isaiah 64:6 "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

God's word on our righteousness.

Much love!
 

marks

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This idea that "righteous is as righteous does" puts the onus of being righteous on "acting righteous", rather than "being righteous".

To illustrate . . . a man is born again from God, and God creates them in righteousness and true holiness (Ephesians 4:24). Not a second passes by and the question is asked . . . is that man righteous?

He hasn't done anything yet, good or bad, except to receive Jesus, believing in His Name.

Is this man righteous? If "righteous is as righteous does", then the answer is No. He hasn't done anything, therefore, he is not righteous. If our righteousness is defined by what we do.

But God has made him righteous, in giving him new birth.

Therefore this righteousness is apart from his works. He was recreated righteous, so it is God recreating the man that renders him righteous, and nothing else. Our righteousness is not then defined by what we do, but by what God did.

If that man should say to himself, how do become More Righteous, then he seeks to add to Jesus' righteousness with what the man would refer to as his own righteousness.

Hm.

Can our own righteousness be better than Jesus' righteousness? I can't imagine anyone truly thinking that!

And yet so many appear to believe they can do just that - become more righteous than God recreated them! Become more righteous than Jesus Who gives us His righteousness.

Much love!
Mark