Roman Catholicism

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BreadOfLife

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Surely you just???? Not one of those quotes has anything to do with a fictitious place called purgatory where dead people's souls are alive and awaiting their release through the prayers or money of the living.

John 20:21-23 says nothing about forgiving people that died and are in purgatory. You are reading that into the text.

2 Corinthians 2:5-10 refers to forgiving the man who was put out of the church in 1 Corinthians 5:1-5. Paul is telling them to forgive him and allow him to return.

You use the wrong definition of martyr when utilizing those quotes. This is from the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia;

The Greek word martus signifies a witness who testifies to a fact of which he has knowledge from personal observation. It is in this sense that the term first appears in Christian literature; the Apostles were "witnesses" of all that they had observed in the public life of Christ, as well as of all they had learned from His teaching, "in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and even to the uttermost part of the earth" (Acts 1:8).
...
Thus, within the lifetime of the Apostles, the term martus came to be used in the sense of a witness who at any time might be called upon to deny what he testified to, under penalty of death. From this stage the transition was easy to the ordinary meaning of the term, as used ever since in Christian literature: a martyr, or witness of Christ, is a person who, though he has never seen nor heard the Divine Founder of the Church, is yet so firmly convinced of the truths of the Christian religion, that he gladly suffers death rather than deny it. St. John, at the end of the first century, employs the word with this meaning; Antipas, a convert from paganism, is spoken of as a "faithful witness (martus) who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth" (Revelation 2:13). Further on the same Apostle speaks of the "souls of them that were slain for the Word of God and for the testimony (martyrian) which they held" (Revelation 6:9).
Your quote of Tertulian's Ad Martyras is taken out of context. The context makes it clear that he is addressing living martyrs who are in prison awaiting death. Chapter 1 begins with;

Blessed Martyrs Designate — Along with the provision which our lady mother the Church from her bountiful breasts, and each brother out of his private means, makes for your bodily wants in the prison, accept also from me some contribution to your spiritual sustenance; for it is not good that the flesh be feasted and the spirit starve: nay, if that which is weak be carefully looked to (the flesh), it is but right that that which is still weaker should not be neglected. (Parenthesis mine)
Your Council of Ancyra is also out of context;

Concerning women who commit fornication, and destroy that which they have conceived, or who are employed in making drugs for abortion, a former decree excluded them until the hour of death, and to this some have assented. Nevertheless, being desirous to use somewhat greater lenity, we have ordained that they fulfil ten years [of penance], according to the prescribed degrees.​

Those women were still alive and the Council wanted to be kinder and gentler to them (lenity), so instead of excluding them right up until the hour of their death, they decided to allow them to make penance (voluntary self-punishment inflicted as an outward expression of repentance for having done wrong) for ten years. This is done by living people, not dead people in purgatory.
I could go through the rest and discredit every one of your quotes, but what I have shared will suffice.

All your posts end with that statement, but it should be changed to, "Teaching Catholic lies online for 15 years . . ."
Either you're NOT that bright - or you're just ignorant.

YOU asked me for Early Church evidence of the doctrine of INDULGENCES - not Purgatory.
They are TWO SEPARATE doctrines.

So, you ask me about ONE doctrine - then attack me for not giving ample evidence for another.
That's like me asking YOU to show me your Driver's Licence - then attacking you for not being an astronaut.

It's just that stupid . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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The RCC has invented a whole raft of fictions, Purgatory being one of them. Very sad!
The teaching of Purgatory or a final purification is completely Biblical.
The word "Purgatory" isn't in Scripture - but neither is "Trinity", "Incarnation" or "Bible" . . .

In 2 Macc. 42-46, we see that Judas Maccabeus prays for the men of his army, killed in battle. Verse 44 says, “… for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.”

Matt. 5:25-26
tells us that unless we have settled our matters, we will be “handed over to the prison guard and will not be released until we have paid the last penny.”

We are told in 1 Cor. 3:12-15 that the day (judgment) will disclose the foundation that a person builds upon and how it will be revealed: “If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.”

This cannot be Heaven because the person will SUFFER - and there is NO suffering in Heaven.
This cannot be Hell because the person will be SAVED - ad there is NO salvation in Hell.
This is describing a THIRD state – a state of Final Purification.

Additionally, Matt. 12:32 states, “whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come”, which indicates that there is purification after death for some. Matt. 18:32-35 and Luke 12:58-59 are additional verses that support this doctrine.

Look - just because you're not familiar with the Word of God - doesn't mean you should attack others because they ARE . . .
 

gadar perets

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The Doctrine of Indulgences in the Early Church
John 20:21-23

Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU FORGIVE are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU RETAIN are retained.

2 Cor. 2:5-10
“For such a one this punishment by the majority is enough…you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him…I beg you to reaffirm your love for him. … What I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence (person) of Christ.

197 A.D. - Tertullian
“Some, not able to find this peace in the Church, have been used to seek it from the imprisoned martyrs. And so you [imprisoned Christians] ought to have it dwelling with you, and to cherish it, and to guard it, that you may be able perhaps to bestow it upon others.” (Ad Martyras Chapter 1)

222 A.D. - Tertullian
“Now you are ascribing this power [of granting indulgences] even to your dear martyrs. As soon as someone of his own accord has taken on the fetters…at once the adulterers are swarming about…[and] prayers are humming in the air… Men and women crowd [them]…beg for [their] blessing…and return from there as [restored to] the community.” (On Modesty Chapter 22)

250 A.D. - St. Cyprian of Carthage
“According to your diligence…designate those by name to whom you desire that peace should be granted. For I hear that certificates [of indulgence] are [too freely] given.” (Letter 10 or 15 Paragraph 4)

And (250 A.D.):
“When some of the lapsed…[demanded] the peace that had been promised to them by the martyrs and confessors…I wrote twice to the clergy…[that] if any who had received a certificate [of indulgence] from the martyrs were departing from this life, having made confession, and received the imposition of hands on them for repentance, they should be remitted to the Lord with the peace promised them by the martyrs.” (Letter 14 or 20 Paragraph 3)

314 A.D. - Council of Ancyra
“Concerning [various sinners]…a former decree excluded them [from the Church] until the hour of death, and to this some have assented. Nevertheless, being desirous to use somewhat greater lenity, we have ordained that they fulfil ten years [of penance], according to the prescribed degrees.” (Canon 21)

314 A.D. - Council of Arles
“Concerning those who carry letters from the confessors, be it resolved that, when they have handed over those letters, they receive other letters of reference.” (Canon 10 or 9)

379 A.D. - St. Basil
“We do not judge [a penance] altogether by the length of time, but by the circumstances of the penance.” (Canonical Epistle to Amphilochius Canon 84)

380 A.D. - St. Gregory of Nyssa
“Fornicators [should] be three years wholly ejected from prayer…and [after an additional six year period] admitted [back] to communion; but the [additional six years] may be lessened to them who of their own accord confess, and are earnest penitents.” (Canonical Epistle to Letojus Canon 4)
I changed my wording for you so you can't get out of replying that easily. Please address this version.

Surely you just???? Not one of those quotes has anything to do with a fictitious place called purgatory where dead people's souls are alive and awaiting their release through the prayers or money of the living (indulgences).

John 20:21-23 says nothing about forgiving people that died. You are reading that into the text.

2 Corinthians 2:5-10 refers to forgiving the man who was put out of the church in 1 Corinthians 5:1-5. Paul is telling them to forgive him and allow him to return.

You use the wrong definition of martyr when utilizing those quotes. This is from the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia;

The Greek word martus signifies a witness who testifies to a fact of which he has knowledge from personal observation. It is in this sense that the term first appears in Christian literature; the Apostles were "witnesses" of all that they had observed in the public life of Christ, as well as of all they had learned from His teaching, "in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and even to the uttermost part of the earth" (Acts 1:8).
...
Thus, within the lifetime of the Apostles, the term martus came to be used in the sense of a witness who at any time might be called upon to deny what he testified to, under penalty of death. From this stage the transition was easy to the ordinary meaning of the term, as used ever since in Christian literature: a martyr, or witness of Christ, is a person who, though he has never seen nor heard the Divine Founder of the Church, is yet so firmly convinced of the truths of the Christian religion, that he gladly suffers death rather than deny it. St. John, at the end of the first century, employs the word with this meaning; Antipas, a convert from paganism, is spoken of as a "faithful witness (martus) who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth" (Revelation 2:13). Further on the same Apostle speaks of the "souls of them that were slain for the Word of God and for the testimony (martyrian) which they held" (Revelation 6:9).​
Your quote of Tertulian's Ad Martyras is taken out of context. The context makes it clear that he is addressing living martyrs who are in a literal earthly prison awaiting death. Chapter 1 begins with;

Blessed Martyrs Designate — Along with the provision which our lady mother the Church from her bountiful breasts, and each brother out of his private means, makes for your bodily wants in the prison, accept also from me some contribution to your spiritual sustenance; for it is not good that the flesh be feasted and the spirit starve: nay, if that which is weak be carefully looked to (the flesh), it is but right that that which is still weaker should not be neglected. (Parenthesis mine)​
Your Council of Ancyra is also out of context;

Concerning women who commit fornication, and destroy that which they have conceived, or who are employed in making drugs for abortion, a former decree excluded them until the hour of death, and to this some have assented. Nevertheless, being desirous to use somewhat greater lenity, we have ordained that they fulfil ten years [of penance], according to the prescribed degrees.​

Those women were still alive and the Council wanted to be kinder and gentler to them (lenity), so instead of excluding them right up until the hour of their death, they decided to allow them to make penance (voluntary self-punishment inflicted as an outward expression of repentance for having done wrong) for ten years. This is done by living people, not dead people. This also says nothing about indulgences.

I could go through the rest and discredit every one of your quotes, but what I have shared will suffice.
 

BreadOfLife

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I changed my wording for you so you can't get out of replying that easily. Please address this version.
Surely you just???? Not one of those quotes has anything to do with a fictitious place called purgatory where dead people's souls are alive and awaiting their release through the prayers or money of the living (indulgences).

John 20:21-23 says nothing about forgiving people that died. You are reading that into the text.

2 Corinthians 2:5-10 refers to forgiving the man who was put out of the church in 1 Corinthians 5:1-5. Paul is telling them to forgive him and allow him to return.

You use the wrong definition of martyr when utilizing those quotes. This is from the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia;

The Greek word martus signifies a witness who testifies to a fact of which he has knowledge from personal observation. It is in this sense that the term first appears in Christian literature; the Apostles were "witnesses" of all that they had observed in the public life of Christ, as well as of all they had learned from His teaching, "in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and even to the uttermost part of the earth" (Acts 1:8).
...
Thus, within the lifetime of the Apostles, the term martus came to be used in the sense of a witness who at any time might be called upon to deny what he testified to, under penalty of death. From this stage the transition was easy to the ordinary meaning of the term, as used ever since in Christian literature: a martyr, or witness of Christ, is a person who, though he has never seen nor heard the Divine Founder of the Church, is yet so firmly convinced of the truths of the Christian religion, that he gladly suffers death rather than deny it. St. John, at the end of the first century, employs the word with this meaning; Antipas, a convert from paganism, is spoken of as a "faithful witness (martus) who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth" (Revelation 2:13). Further on the same Apostle speaks of the "souls of them that were slain for the Word of God and for the testimony (martyrian) which they held" (Revelation 6:9).​
Your quote of Tertulian's Ad Martyras is taken out of context. The context makes it clear that he is addressing living martyrs who are in a literal earthly prison awaiting death. Chapter 1 begins with;

Blessed Martyrs Designate — Along with the provision which our lady mother the Church from her bountiful breasts, and each brother out of his private means, makes for your bodily wants in the prison, accept also from me some contribution to your spiritual sustenance; for it is not good that the flesh be feasted and the spirit starve: nay, if that which is weak be carefully looked to (the flesh), it is but right that that which is still weaker should not be neglected. (Parenthesis mine)​
Your Council of Ancyra is also out of context;

Concerning women who commit fornication, and destroy that which they have conceived, or who are employed in making drugs for abortion, a former decree excluded them until the hour of death, and to this some have assented. Nevertheless, being desirous to use somewhat greater lenity, we have ordained that they fulfil ten years [of penance], according to the prescribed degrees.​

Those women were still alive and the Council wanted to be kinder and gentler to them (lenity), so instead of excluding them right up until the hour of their death, they decided to allow them to make penance (voluntary self-punishment inflicted as an outward expression of repentance for having done wrong) for ten years. This is done by living people, not dead people. This also says nothing about indulgences.
I could go through the rest and discredit every one of your quotes, but what I have shared will suffice.
I changed my wording for you so you can't get out of replying that easily. Please address this version.
Surely you just???? Not one of those quotes has anything to do with a fictitious place called purgatory where dead people's souls are alive and awaiting their release through the prayers or money of the living (indulgences).

John 20:21-23 says nothing about forgiving people that died. You are reading that into the text.
2 Corinthians 2:5-10 refers to forgiving the man who was put out of the church in 1 Corinthians 5:1-5. Paul is telling them to forgive him and allow him to return.

You use the wrong definition of martyr when utilizing those quotes. This is from the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia;
The Greek word martus signifies a witness who testifies to a fact of which he has knowledge from personal observation. It is in this sense that the term first appears in Christian literature; the Apostles were "witnesses" of all that they had observed in the public life of Christ, as well as of all they had learned from His teaching, "in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and even to the uttermost part of the earth" (Acts 1:8).
...
T​
Your quote of Tertulian's Ad Martyras is taken out of context. The context makes it clear that he is addressing living martyrs who are in a literal earthly prison awaiting death. Chapter 1 begins with;
Blessed Martyrs Designate — Along with the provision which our lady mother the Church from her bountiful breasts, and each brother out of his private means, makes for your bodily wants in the prison, accept also from me some contribution to your spiritual sustenance; for it is not good that the flesh be feasted and the spirit starve: nay, if that which is weak be carefully looked to (the flesh), it is but right that that which is still weaker should not be neglected. (Parenthesis mine)​
Your Council of Ancyra is also out of context;

Concerning women who commit fornication, and destroy that which they have conceived, or who are employed in making drugs for abortion, a former decree excluded them until the hour of death, and to this some have assented. Nevertheless, being desirous to use somewhat greater lenity, we have ordained that they fulfil ten years [of penance], according to the prescribed degrees.​
Those women were still alive and the Council wanted to be kinder and gentler to them (lenity), so instead of excluding them right up until the hour of their death, they decided to allow them to make penance (voluntary self-punishment inflicted as an outward expression of repentance for having done wrong) for ten years. This is done by living people, not dead people. This also says nothing about indulgences.

I could go through the rest and discredit every one of your quotes, but what I have shared will suffice.[/QUOTE]
Once again, you're conflating 2 separate doctrines.
Indulgences aren't granted to those who are dead - but to the LIVING.

Purgatory applies to those who have died in God's grace but who will needs to be perfectly joined to God's will. They are suffering temporal punishment in the process of purification (1 Cor. 3:12-15) - not eternal punishment.

By the way - it's "Jest" - not "Just" . . .
 

gadar perets

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Once again, you're conflating 2 separate doctrines.
Indulgences aren't granted to those who are dead - but to the LIVING.

Purgatory applies to those who have died in God's grace but who will needs to be perfectly joined to God's will. They are suffering temporal punishment in the process of purification (1 Cor. 3:12-15) - not eternal punishment.

By the way - it's "Jest" - not "Just" . . .
You choose to play word games instead of addressing the issue of taking things out of context and deception.
 

CoreIssue

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CoreIssue

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Brecht, Martin; Martin Luther, His Road to Reformation 1483-1521, Fortress Press, 1981; p.103

Okay thanks.

I did some searching on my own for clarity.

Parts of the stairs are believed to have come from Jerusalem. Not the whole stairs.

Coming from a Catholic source I reject the claim until proven. As I reject scattered parts of the cross of Christ in Catholic cathedrals and bones of Saints.

And why was Martin on those Roman stairs? As an act of penance for violations he had committed.

Understanding the why gives understanding to his actions.
 
B

brakelite

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Okay thanks.

I did some searching on my own for clarity.

Parts of the stairs are believed to have come from Jerusalem. Not the whole stairs.

Coming from a Catholic source I reject the claim until proven. As I reject scattered parts of the cross of Christ in Catholic cathedrals and bones of Saints.

And why was Martin on those Roman stairs? As an act of penance for violations he had committed.

Understanding the why gives understanding to his actions.
And the fact that the Vatican has reopened them and folk are still deceived that by some self-sacrifice this earns them time off purgatory or someone else time off, reveals how locked into the falsehood and error Catholics unfortunately still are. 500 years of Protestantism hasn't achieved what it was intended for...at least not yet. God is still calling His people out to a faith based on grace and mercy, not works or sacraments.
 

Marymog

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Bringing some clarity.
Clarity or ANOTHER anti-Catholic discussion? :(

Clarity is describe as being certain or definite.

The Reformation (Protestantism) brought LACK of clarity that is why all the Protestant churches disagree with each other on "Core Issues". ;)

Mary
 

CoreIssue

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Clarity or ANOTHER anti-Catholic discussion? :(

Clarity is describe as being certain or definite.

The Reformation (Protestantism) brought LACK of clarity that is why all the Protestant churches disagree with each other on "Core Issues". ;)

Mary
The topic is Catholicism, not Protestantism.

Stop trying to divert and deflect.
 

Marymog

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The topic is Catholicism, not Protestantism.

Stop trying to divert and deflect.
The topic is bringing some clarity to Roman Catholicism.

Catholicism is certain and definite. You can find it articulated in the Catechism.

Where can I find clarity in Protestantism?

Curious Mary
 

CoreIssue

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The teaching of Purgatory or a final purification is completely Biblical.
The word "Purgatory" isn't in Scripture - but neither is "Trinity", "Incarnation" or "Bible" . . .

In 2 Macc. 42-46, we see that Judas Maccabeus prays for the men of his army, killed in battle. Verse 44 says, “… for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.”

Matt. 5:25-26
tells us that unless we have settled our matters, we will be “handed over to the prison guard and will not be released until we have paid the last penny.”

We are told in 1 Cor. 3:12-15 that the day (judgment) will disclose the foundation that a person builds upon and how it will be revealed: “If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.”

This cannot be Heaven because the person will SUFFER - and there is NO suffering in Heaven.
This cannot be Hell because the person will be SAVED - ad there is NO salvation in Hell.
This is describing a THIRD state – a state of Final Purification.

Additionally, Matt. 12:32 states, “whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come”, which indicates that there is purification after death for some. Matt. 18:32-35 and Luke 12:58-59 are additional verses that support this doctrine.

Look - just because you're not familiar with the Word of God - doesn't mean you should attack others because they ARE . . .

Maccabees is not Bible.

1 Cor. 3:12-15 Is about judging the person's work with fire, meaning divine judgment. The person escapes but their works do not.

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is never forgiven.