Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.

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Phoneman777

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It hasn't happened yet. The whole world will wonder after the beast only when he arrives on the scene in Jerusalem, exalting himself as God, sitting in the temple of God (Jerusalem temple for the end).

2 Thess 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV


I'm afraid for you brother. Men's doctrines are not preparing you for that coming false one to Jerusalem.
It is apparent that you are not very familiar with Protestant Historicism.

You are preaching Jesuit Futurism, an idea that didn't exist until after the Protestant Reformation kicked off in the early 16th century. Protestant Historicism exposed the papacy as the Little Horn of Daniel, the Man of Sin, the Whore of Babylon riding the Beast, the Antichrist, etc., which caused thousands of catholics to flee from the papacy and join the Reformation. Jesuit Futurism AND Jesuit Preterism was launched mid-16th century as a diversionary tactic to get the heat off the papacy. It didn't work. For the next THREE HUNDRED YEARS, every Protestant pulpit in the world taught what I'm presenting here and would have thrown anyone out that attempted to present that which you are bringing. But, because the murderous persecution of the papacy came to an end, eventually Protestants forgot what in the world was the reason for why they were fighting the papacy to begin with.

Today, non-catholics are wholly ignorant of why the Reformers identified the papacy as such, which is a shame because how in the world can one avoid the Mark of the Beast if they fail to properly identify the Beast?
 

Phoneman777

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That the false pre-trib rapture doctrine would be a major deceptive doctrine in the last days was Old Testament Bible prophecy by God through His prophet Ezekiel.

Ezek 13:18-20
18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of My people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?

19 And will ye pollute Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to My people that hear your lies?

20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

KJV


The prophet Ezekiel was mainly sent as a prophet to the "house of Israel" (Ezek.3). In Ezekiel's day, the ten tribe northern kingdom of the "house of Israel" had already been removed from the holy land by the kings of Assyria, to Assyria and the lands of the Medes. God translated Ezekiel from his house to among the ten tribes to give them His Message.

The ten lost tribes of the house of Israel would be further scattered west. The Jewish historian Josephus said they were still 'beyond Euphrates' in his day (100 A.D.) and were a great number, too many to count.

II Esdras speaks this about them:
39 And whereas thou sawest that he gathered another peaceable multitude unto him;
40 Those are the ten tribes, which were carried away prisoners out of their own land in the time of Osea the king, whom Salmanasar the king of Assyria led away captive, and he carried them over the waters, and so came they into another land.
41 But they took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,
42 That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land.
43 And they entered into Euphrates by the narrow places of the river.
44 For the most High then shewed signs for them, and held still the flood, till they were passed over.
45 For through that country there was a great way to go, namely, of a year and a half: and the same region is called Arsareth.


ARZARETH:

By: Morris Jastrow, Jr., Kaufmann Kohler
"The name of the land beyond the great river, far away from the habitation of man, in which the Ten Tribes of Israel will dwell, observing the laws of Moses, until the time of the restoration, according to IV Esd. xiii. 45. Columbus identified America with this land. (See Kayserling's "Christopher Columbus," translated by Dr. C. Gross, p. 15.)

The name, it has been suggested by Schiller-Szinessy, is taken from Deut. xxix. 24-27, "Because they forsook the covenant of the Lord . . . and went and served other gods . . . the Lord rooted them out of their land . . . and cast them into another land [ereẓ aḦeret] as this day." This passage is made to refer (in Mishnah Sanh. x. 3) to the Ten Tribes (compare Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 12; Bab. ib. 110b; Yer. ib. x. 29c; Ab. R. N., ed. Schechter, A, xxxvi. 108, and Bacher, "Agada der Tannaiten," i. 143). But different opinions are expressed by Akiba and Eliezer—the traditions are rather confused as to the names—whether the Ten Tribes may be expected to return or not, since this point is not determined in the Scriptural verse. One of them takes the words "as this day" to signify that "as the day goeth, but doth not return, so shall they who are cast off not return"; the other explains the words: "as the day begins with the darkness of the night, but turns into day, so shall the darkness of their banishment be turned into bright daylight" (Mishnah Sanh. l.c.). The fourth Book of Esdras took the latter view, which was adopted also by R. Judah ha-Nasi in the Tosefta (l.c.), who refers to Isa. xxvii. 13."

Bibliography:
  • Schiller-Szinessy, in Journal of Philology, iii. 114;
  • Neubauer, Jew. Quart. Rev. i. 16.

My point concerning that history about Ezekiel being sent to the ten tribe house of Israel? Simple. The prophecy in Genesis 48 Jacob gave his grandson Ephraim was that his seed would become "a multitude of nations", and the first king of ten tribed Israel that God made was Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim, as Ephraim became the head tribe over the ten northern tribes (see 1 Kings 11 forward, and Hosea). That "multitude of nations" represents the western Christian nations that Ephraim and the ten tribes would become, along with believing Gentiles on Christ Jesus in those new lands. Even with the old 'blue laws' in early America, everyone was required to appear at Church on Sunday, otherwise the law would come and take you.

So this Ezekiel 13 Message is about pastors in the Christian Church in the last days, as that is who God points this to with the "house of Israel" for the last days in the beginning of the chapter...

Ezek 13:1-5
13:1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD;
3 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!
4 O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts.
5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.

KJV

What? To stand in the battle in the day of the LORD? The "day of the Lord" is about the last days, our days leading up to Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thess.5). That puts this Ezekiel 13 prophecy in perspective for the latter days, our days. And for those who think the ten tribes of Israel are really no more, they need to read what Jacob said to his twelve sons at the start of Genesis 49.
Yes, the rapture is after the tribulation
 

Enoch111

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No room in that interpretation for Isaiah or Jeremiah or Peter's definitive description of total devastation of the planet which will be devoid of life for a period before God recreates the New Heavens and New Earth.
The supernatural burning up of the earth and its atmosphere (including the devastation of the planet) will take place immediately before the New Heavens and the New Earth. That is crystal clear from 2 Peter 3. So all you had to do is place that between the end of Revelation 20 and the beginning of Revelation 21. Not rocket science.
 

Enoch111

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Protestant Historicism exposed the papacy as the Little Horn of Daniel, the Man of Sin, the Whore of Babylon riding the Beast, the Antichrist, etc.,
That is is TOTALLY DELUSIONAL. The Antichrist and a Satan are given only 3 1/2 years to do their worst, and both Daniel and Revelation confirm this.

1260 days/360 = 42 months/12 = 3 1/2 years = time (1 yr) + times (2 yrs) + half a time (6 months).

On the other hand the Papacy has been around for a little over 1,600 years. HUGE DIFFERENCE and a spiritual absurdity if compared to 3 1/2 years.
 

Phoneman777

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No, the Rev.13 beast is NOT... the papacy.
OK, I can live with that, but if you ever want to know why the Protestant Reformation taught Historicism for centuries - and taught it until just about 150 years ago - I'm happy to guide you through it.
 

Phoneman777

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That is is TOTALLY DELUSIONAL. The Antichrist and a Satan are given only 3 1/2 years to do their worst, and both Daniel and Revelation confirm this.

1260 days/360 = 42 months/12 = 3 1/2 years = time (1 yr) + times (2 yrs) + half a time (6 months).

On the other hand the Papacy has been around for a little over 1,600 years. HUGE DIFFERENCE and a spiritual absurdity if compared to 3 1/2 years.
3 1/2 symbolic years, which is 1,200 symbolic days...if you interpret the symbolism using Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6, it is 1,260 literal years.
 

Phoneman777

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The supernatural burning up of the earth and its atmosphere (including the devastation of the planet) will take place immediately before the New Heavens and the New Earth. That is crystal clear from 2 Peter 3. So all you had to do is place that between the end of Revelation 20 and the beginning of Revelation 21. Not rocket science.

Enoch111, do you accept Peter's words in 2 Peter 3 that when the Lord comes as a thief in the night - which is when the saints are raptured - it is in that day when that cosmic conflagration happens?
 

Phoneman777

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That's your spin on it. But Scripture will not allow that.
You admit the 70 Weeks are not 490 days, but symbolic for 490 years, but the 1,260 and the 3 1/2 is literal time? That's totally inconsistent.
 

Phoneman777

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No doubt you are wrong. Yes, and Deuteronomy and Acts 17 is the two witnesses (OT and NT) I used to support that. Guess that got missed that when I mentioned both Deuteronomy and the Bereans (Acts 17). Unless Acts is no longer part of the NT.
OK, thanks for clearing that up
 

Enoch111

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Enoch111, do you accept Peter's words in 2 Peter 3 that when the Lord comes as a thief in the night - which is when the saints are raptured - it is in that day when that cosmic conflagration happens?
Please note that it is not "the "Lord" "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night" (2 Pet 3:10). Big Difference.

The coming of "a thief in the night" is a metaphor for (1) an unexpected event and (2) an unprepared for event. Most people are not expecting, nor are prepared for, a break-an-enter assault on their homes by thieves. Similarly (a) when Christ comes at the Rapture, it will be unexpected and most will not be prepared for it among believers, and (b) when God sends supernatural fire on the earth to thoroughly cleanse it (as well as the atmosphere) no one will expect it among the unbelievers. So the same metaphor is used for both the Rapture and the total burning of the earth, even though they are two unrelated events.
 

n2thelight

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So...your saying that there's hope for them yet??! They were put to death by God for sins of the highest...but until the GWT we can't know, really, which way all those people are going, huh?
Gee...I guess this salvation thing is more open-ended then we have been supposing.

That's exactly what I'm saying,yes there is hope for them.Question,do you understand the purpose the millennium?
 

n2thelight

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The supernatural burning up of the earth and its atmosphere (including the devastation of the planet) will take place immediately before the New Heavens and the New Earth. That is crystal clear from 2 Peter 3. So all you had to do is place that between the end of Revelation 20 and the beginning of Revelation 21. Not rocket science.

The fire that burns the earth, is of the Holy Spirit,and it simply means everything that is not pure will be burned away,in other words it's the same earth,with all evil removed.
 

Enoch111

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You admit the 70 Weeks are not 490 days, but symbolic for 490 years, but the 1,260 and the 3 1/2 is literal time? That's totally inconsistent.
No it is not inconsistent. In Hebrews the word shabua simply means a heptad -- "a seven". So it could either apply to a week of days or a week of years. It has been translated as a week of years for the simple reason that historical events demand that.

Why is it 70 weeks of seven years (490 years)? Because a specific time line is given to us. From the decree of Cyrus to the completion of the restoration of Jerusalem was 49 years. From then to the crucifixion of Christ was 434 years. And Ptolemy's chronology was higher by 83 years. So when you calculate this correctly and historically (with the crucifixion in 30 AD), you get a total of 483 years. 490-483 = 7 years, which is Daniel's 70th week (future).
 

Enoch111

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The fire that burns the earth, is of the Holy Spirit,and it simply means everything that is not pure will be burned away,in other words it's the same earth,with all evil removed.
Once again you are spiritualizing away what is literal. The earth -- every city, town, and village, every forest, every habitation, will be literally burned up. Read 2 Peter 3 again. Even the earth's atmosphere will be burned up.
 

Phoneman777

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Please note that it is not "the "Lord" "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night" (2 Pet 3:10). Big Difference.
So, you're saying that when the Lord comes as a thief in the night to rapture the saints, the heavens will not pass away with a great noise and the elements will not melt with fervent heat, and the earth and the works therein shall not burn up?
 

CoreIssue

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Yes, Isaiah, as well, indicates that there will be sin and death in the Millennial Kingdom (although greatly reduced). Isaiah chapter 65 gives a picture of that time. Very long life will return as God will apparently repair the genomes of all life on earth as well as restoring the earth to its original pristine condition of a paradise.

At the End of the Millennial Kingdom, the earth and sky will be destroyed by fire and a new earth with a new atmosphere will be created. The 1,400 mile cube that is the New Jerusalem will come down to rest on the new earth and it will be there throughout eternity with God the Father and the Lamb as its source of light.

I have to disagree with you and one point. The original pristine condition of the earth did not have wakes, oceans and so on.

In fact it doesn't say he will clean up the earth. He may have the nations do that.
 

CoreIssue

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Once again you are spiritualizing away what is literal. The earth -- every city, town, and village, every forest, every habitation, will be literally burned up. Read 2 Peter 3 again. Even the earth's atmosphere will be burned up.

Peter makes it clear if you study Greek words that are very Adams of the heavens and earth will come apart like a giant nuclear bomb.

Then it will be remade into its original condition of Genesis 1:1.
No lakes, rivers, oceans, sun, moon, etc.

At first the earth was entirely watered from underground and dew from air.

Genesis 2:5-6 New International Version (NIV)
5 Now no shrub had yet appeared on the eartha]">[a] and no plant had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, 6 but streamsb]">[b] came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground.

Impossible for us to picture today.
 

VictoryinJesus

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The supernatural burning up of the earth and its atmosphere (including the devastation of the planet) will take place immediately before the New Heavens and the New Earth.

The Fire is God. Hebrews 12:29
[29] For our God is a consuming fire.

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8
[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let , until he be taken out of the way. [8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Okay verse (7) is the rapture verse in “until he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And THEN that wicked be revealed”...and after “whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Within two verses: rapture, that wicked revealed, and that wicked revealed destroyed with by the brightness (Fire)of His coming.

You said “The supernatural burning up of the earth and its atmosphere (including the devastation of the planet) will take place immediately before the New Heavens and the New Earth.”

The brightness(our god is a consuming fire) of His coming and “immediately” the New Heavens and the New Earth.

Rapture.
that wicked revealed,
That wicked destroyed by the consuming fire and “immediately” after the new heavens and earth? Where does the thousand year reign fit in: Rapture, that wicked revealed, whom our God “consumes” “destroys” with the brightness of His coming, and immediately after the New heavens and earth? Where does a thousand years fit?
 

Phoneman777

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No it is not inconsistent. In Hebrews the word shabua simply means a heptad -- "a seven". So it could either apply to a week of days or a week of years. It has been translated as a week of years for the simple reason that historical events demand that.

Why is it 70 weeks of seven years (490 years)? Because a specific time line is given to us. From the decree of Cyrus to the completion of the restoration of Jerusalem was 49 years. From then to the crucifixion of Christ was 434 years. And Ptolemy's chronology was higher by 83 years. So when you calculate this correctly and historically (with the crucifixion in 30 AD), you get a total of 483 years. 490-483 = 7 years, which is Daniel's 70th week (future).
It's translated "week" 19 times in the KJV, but here it's 7?