The Carnal Christian

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Netchaplain

Ordained Chaplain
Oct 12, 2011
2,242
848
113
Missouri
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Have you considered that we are being baptized in Christ and immersed into him constantly
Yes, if you mean permanently in His spiritual baptism (Rom 6:3; Gal 3:27). I believe our baptism in His "death" need not be repeated (same for all we have in Him), but I see nothing conflicting with repetitious water baptism, if that's what you mean. It's our spiritual baptism that is in regeneration though, not water baptism, unless this isn't what you mean.

It is a constant covering to become more like Christ, of 'dying and rising,' as we continue to 'kill off the old man.
It's my understanding that everything spiritual occurs only once at rebirth, which is all that is needed for salvation (2Pe 1:3). Anything spiritual we think needs repeating concerning being saved means we do not fully understand the sufficiency of His expiation for our sin nature. Everything after being saved has to do with being conformed in the walk of faith, which is the fruit of the Spirit and so is used to glorify God (Mat 5:16; Jhn 15:8).
 

Netchaplain

Ordained Chaplain
Oct 12, 2011
2,242
848
113
Missouri
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hi NC,

I think this is the majority opinion, at least from those I've heard express a view.

Romans 6, I think, lends itself well to that view also, in that we are to present our members not as instruments of sin, but as instruments of righteousness.

But then, I could argue, as I do, that the presentation of our body parts (literal meaning) to sin is our default position.

We're told to not present our body as a tool for sin because it's what we've literally always done, not being able to stop it.

But then if we are not talking about the body wherein sin dwells, what is the "sin nature", and where does sin live? (Ala Romans 7)

Much love!
Mark
The point I'm trying to make is that our salvific position in Christ is not in the sinning, because it's the sinning that manifests a sin source (old man), thus guilt from condemnation is incurred from it.
 

Netchaplain

Ordained Chaplain
Oct 12, 2011
2,242
848
113
Missouri
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
But I truly believe that every born again Christian has received everything needed to live righteous and holy.
True (2Pe 1:3), and it's my belief that all who are reborn will manifest it in their "willing" and their "doing" (Phl 2:13). The only reason why those professing faith do not continue in this is because they've never been reborn, thus god is not "working" in them.
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,346
21,561
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The point I'm trying to make is that our salvific position in Christ is not in the sinning, because it's the sinning that manifests a sin source (old man), thus guilt from condemnation is incurred from it.

To be honest, you kind of lost me here.

Salvation is a new creation in Christ, the old creation condemned, guilt transfered to Jesus, Jesus crucified. Old man is dead but not inactive, as death is not inactivity but rather separation. Old man sins, remains condemned, guilt was dealt with on the cross.

OK. Maybe I can clarify myself better, perhaps we are more in agreement then seems.

When I say that the corrupt nature is found in the body of flesh, where it actually comes to bear is in the mind of the flesh.

My wife has cats. They, being mammals with brains, have minds. The have personality, emotion, volition, like that. I think we are like that before we are born again.

I think that we were created in God's image, but sin killed something, and we became different, and like the animal. More complex. But no spirit.

In our case, our minds, which are there because we exist in bodies that produce electro-chemical interactions, became perverted, and separated from God.

When we are born again, God births a spirit being, the new me, housed in this same body of flesh, with a brain and everything, but instead of the old flesh mind with it's perversions, I have a new mind, the Mind of Christ, the new man.

Now two minds compete for supremecy, the old mind of the flesh, and the new mind of Christ, not of flesh, though taking over control of my flesh, but of spirit, born of God.

Does that help?

Much love!
Mark
 

Waiting on him

Well-Known Member
Dec 21, 2018
11,674
6,096
113
56
North America
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Have you considered that we are being baptized in Christ and immersed into him constantly, until we eventually emerge out ourselves, out, into glory and immortality, in the future. So we 'put on Christ' as being immersed in him today and walk in this immersion, in sanctification. This 'covering' or baptism is not a one time act as as most Christians perform as their profession and allegiance and symbolism of dying with Christ and rising with his to new life. It is a constant covering to become more like Christ, of 'dying and rising,' as we continue to 'kill off the old man.' We carry our cross as Christ, until we 'drop' dead....reaching the end of our race to our own finish line...

Just saying...

APAK
We die daily
 
  • Like
Reactions: APAK

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,346
21,561
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
True (2Pe 1:3), and it's my belief that all who are reborn will manifest it in their "willing" and their "doing" (Phl 2:13). The only reason why those professing faith do not continue in this is because they've never been reborn, thus god is not "working" in them.

That's how I see it.

And you bring up a good point. While we've been given all we need, we will still only see it in our lives in God's time, as He works within us.

Boy have I seen that in my life! As God has been working in me, fixing so much that was damaged by the sin and corruption that is in the world, I've had to be patient, and be surprised, as He works things His way!

But Father knows best!

Much love!
mark
 
  • Like
Reactions: Waiting on him

Waiting on him

Well-Known Member
Dec 21, 2018
11,674
6,096
113
56
North America
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
True (2Pe 1:3), and it's my belief that all who are reborn will manifest it in their "willing" and their "doing" (Phl 2:13). The only reason why those professing faith do not continue in this is because they've never been reborn, thus god is not "working" in them.
1 Corinthians 6:18 KJV
[18] Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

Would you comment on this verse please? @Netchaplain

Tecarta Bible
 

Netchaplain

Ordained Chaplain
Oct 12, 2011
2,242
848
113
Missouri
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
To be honest, you kind of lost me here.

Salvation is a new creation in Christ, the old creation condemned, guilt transfered to Jesus, Jesus crucified. Old man is dead but not inactive, as death is not inactivity but rather separation. Old man sins, remains condemned, guilt was dealt with on the cross.

OK. Maybe I can clarify myself better, perhaps we are more in agreement then seems.

When I say that the corrupt nature is found in the body of flesh, where it actually comes to bear is in the mind of the flesh.

My wife has cats. They, being mammals with brains, have minds. The have personality, emotion, volition, like that. I think we are like that before we are born again.

I think that we were created in God's image, but sin killed something, and we became different, and like the animal. More complex. But no spirit.

In our case, our minds, which are there because we exist in bodies that produce electro-chemical interactions, became perverted, and separated from God.

When we are born again, God births a spirit being, the new me, housed in this same body of flesh, with a brain and everything, but instead of the old flesh mind with it's perversions, I have a new mind, the Mind of Christ, the new man.

Now two minds compete for supremecy, the old mind of the flesh, and the new mind of Christ, not of flesh, though taking over control of my flesh, but of spirit, born of God.

Does that help?

Much love!
Mark
In the OT, that word "flesh" means the physical body, but in the NT is nearly always means the sin nature. The nature is that which is unseen, and the physical body is that which is seen, thus the two have not the same meaning. It still seem you're relating the two and the same thing, unless I'm misunderstanding you.

I think a good example is Gal 5:17: The "flesh" isn't the physical body here, but the sinful human nature:

Genesis 1:1 (KJV) Definition IV. "the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God."
 

Netchaplain

Ordained Chaplain
Oct 12, 2011
2,242
848
113
Missouri
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
We die daily
Our death to sin is the same as Jesus', dying only once (Col 2:20; 3:3; Rom 6:2).

The phrase "die daily" (1Co 15:31) has to do with Paul's constant physical danger:

John Gill - "I die daily"; which is to be understood, not in a spiritual sense of dying unto sin; he was dead unto sin, as to its damning power, through the death of Christ, and as to its governing power, through the Spirit and grace of Christ, but still it was living and dwelling in him; but in a corporeal sense: he instances in himself in particular, who was one that was in jeopardy or danger of his life every hour; he always bore in his body the dying of the Lord Jesus, and was continually delivered to death for Jesus' sake; death was always working in him, he expected it every day, and was ready for it; he did not count his life dear unto himself, but was very willing to lay it down for the sake of Christ and his Gospel; which he would never have done, if he had not good reason to believe the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead."

1 Corinthians 15 Bible Commentary - John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible
 
  • Like
Reactions: Waiting on him

Anthony D'Arienzo

Well-Known Member
Jan 3, 2019
2,585
2,084
113
70
georgia
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The old man has been crucified, this is a completed action as is everything in the first 11 verses.
He is not hanging around,swooning on the cross...he is dead.
The motions of sin are still in our bodies until glorificationrom7:5
The teaching of the "carnal Christian "is a heresy.
Paul rebuked these believers for acting as if they were unsaved natural men.
 

Netchaplain

Ordained Chaplain
Oct 12, 2011
2,242
848
113
Missouri
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The old man has been crucified, this is a completed action as is everything in the first 11 verses.
He is not hanging around,swooning on the cross...he is dead.
The motions of sin are still in our bodies until glorificationrom7:5
The teaching of the "carnal Christian "is a heresy.
Paul rebuked these believers for acting as if they were unsaved natural men.
It's written that we "are dead to sin" (Rom 6:2,11; Col 3:3 ) via the sin nature (old man) being co-crucified with Christ (Rom 6:6), but nowhere is it said to be dead to us. If it were would we still sin? Would there still be a need for its members of our sin nature ("body of sin" - Rom 6:6) to be "mortified" (Col 3:5, 8). Would the Spirit of God be opposing it in us (flesh; sin nature - Gal 5:17)?

Not saying this of you personally, but believing we no longer sin is a tail-chaser, of which I didn't learn until 12 years or so into my 40 years of being reborn.

I like the above passage you've indicated (Rom 7:5), very subject-applicable, and I've included this comment for anyone it may interest:

"The motions of sins which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death": by "the motions of sin" are meant, the evil passions and affections of the mind, the lusts of the heart, sinful desires, evil thoughts, the imaginations of the thoughts of the heart, the first motions of the mind to sin: these "were by the law"; not as the efficient cause of them, that neither produces nor encourages them; it is holy, just, and good, requires truth in the inward parts, and not only forbids the outward acts of sin, but even covetous desires, and lustful thoughts:."

"These inward motions of sin arise from a corrupt heart and nature; are encouraged and cherished by the old man that dwells there; and men are enticed by Satan to a compliance with them. Some think that the meaning of the phrase is, that these secret lusts of the heart are made known by the law, as in Romans 7:7, so they are, but not whilst a man is in the flesh, or in an unregenerate state, but when he comes to be wrought upon powerfully by the Spirit of God, who makes use of the law to such a purpose." -John Gill

By the revealing of sin, it "became exceedingly sinful," that is, enhanced (Rom 7:13)!

(more of this comment: Romans 7 Gill's Exposition)

God's blessings to you!
 

Netchaplain

Ordained Chaplain
Oct 12, 2011
2,242
848
113
Missouri
Faith
Christian
Country
United States

Netchaplain

Ordained Chaplain
Oct 12, 2011
2,242
848
113
Missouri
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That's how I see it.

And you bring up a good point. While we've been given all we need, we will still only see it in our lives in God's time, as He works within us.

Boy have I seen that in my life! As God has been working in me, fixing so much that was damaged by the sin and corruption that is in the world, I've had to be patient, and be surprised, as He works things His way!

But Father knows best!

Much love!
mark
Appreciate the instruction here!

God's blessings to you Brother!
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

Well-Known Member
Jan 3, 2019
2,585
2,084
113
70
georgia
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It's written that we "are dead to sin" (Rom 6:2,11; Col 3:3 ) via the sin nature (old man) being co-crucified with Christ (Rom 6:6), but nowhere is it said to be dead to us. If it were would we still sin? Would there still be a need for its members of our sin nature ("body of sin" - Rom 6:6) to be "mortified" (Col 3:5, 8). Would the Spirit of God be opposing it in us (flesh; sin nature - Gal 5:17)?

Not saying this of you personally, but believing we no longer sin is a tail-chaser, of which I didn't learn until 12 years or so into my 40 years of being reborn.

I like the above passage you've indicated (Rom 7:5), very subject-applicable, and I've included this comment for anyone it may interest:

"The motions of sins which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death": by "the motions of sin" are meant, the evil passions and affections of the mind, the lusts of the heart, sinful desires, evil thoughts, the imaginations of the thoughts of the heart, the first motions of the mind to sin: these "were by the law"; not as the efficient cause of them, that neither produces nor encourages them; it is holy, just, and good, requires truth in the inward parts, and not only forbids the outward acts of sin, but even covetous desires, and lustful thoughts:."

"These inward motions of sin arise from a corrupt heart and nature; are encouraged and cherished by the old man that dwells there; and men are enticed by Satan to a compliance with them. Some think that the meaning of the phrase is, that these secret lusts of the heart are made known by the law, as in Romans 7:7, so they are, but not whilst a man is in the flesh, or in an unregenerate state, but when he comes to be wrought upon powerfully by the Spirit of God, who makes use of the law to such a purpose." -John Gill

By the revealing of sin, it "became exceedingly sinful," that is, enhanced (Rom 7:13)!

(more of this comment: Romans 7 Gill's Exposition)

God's blessings to you!
I did not speak of sinless perfection here on earth. I did speak of the Christian being a new man, not two different men
Before Salvation we were the old man bound by sin,and going along with the old nature,indwelling sin and corruption
After salvation we are a new man mortifying the indwelling sin and the deeds of the body,old nature.

There is not an old man and a new man at the same time.
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,346
21,561
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I think a good example is Gal 5:17: The "flesh" isn't the physical body here, but the sinful human nature:

Hi NC,

Galatians 5:16-19
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

I'm still thinking that the original creation, "old mark", is still here, sitting here in this chair. And if I'm doing well, then "new mark" is controlling the typing of these fingers. But If I allow it, "old mark" is perfectly ready to take over, and very much wants to.

These are easily thought of as old nature and new nature, I simply think of these a bit more solid, if you will.

Just like the new creation also has its own body, resident in the heavenly realm (2 Corinthians 5). I don't see the corruption of the flesh apart from the flesh.

I see us as being a corrupted old creation, reborn into an uncorrupted new creation.

The desires that arise from this corrupted old creation result in murders, and envyings, and drunkenness, and fornication, and all the rest.

These are called the deceiptful lusts of the flesh (Eph 4?), I think referring to the fact that it used to be me and now it's not, but we can forget that we were cleansed from our sins, and live as if we were not, deceived into giving in to the wants of the body, whatever they are, and of the flesh mind.

Much love!
Mark
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,346
21,561
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
but not be both pure and impure simultaneously.

But a person is both at the same time.

We do not stop being righteous even if we commit sin.

God created us patterned after Him, in righteousness and true holiness.

And this is based on Jesus' complete work in propitiating our sin, having nothing to do with my own works, either good towards "improved righteousness", or bad towards now becoming unrighteous in my new creation.

Much love!
Mark
 
  • Like
Reactions: Waiting on him

Waiting on him

Well-Known Member
Dec 21, 2018
11,674
6,096
113
56
North America
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
But a person is both at the same time.

We do not stop being righteous even if we commit sin.

God created us patterned after Him, in righteousness and true holiness.

And this is based on Jesus' complete work in propitiating our sin, having nothing to do with my own works, either good towards "improved righteousness", or bad towards now becoming unrighteous in my new creation.

Much love!
Mark
This is what is truly observed regardless of how much men want to fluff their selves up. Scripture says confess your sins to one another. What? Sins?
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,346
21,561
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This is what is truly observed regardless of how much men want to fluff their selves up. Scripture says confess your sins to one another. What? Sins?

Scripture acknowledges that childen of God sin, although it is God's intent that they do not. But if we sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus . . .

Much love!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Waiting on him

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,996
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Thus there now coexists two natures in the soul of the believer, the old man and the new man...
This is true, but since repentance is a condition of salvation, new born Christians must be properly discipled, so that carnality becomes a rarity, not a given. God gives the gift of the Holy Spirit to every believer so that "sin shall not have dominion over you".

Here is how Paul describes carnality, called "the works of the flesh":

GALATIANS 5
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
 

farouk

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2009
30,790
19,232
113
North America
1 Corinthians 6:18 KJV
[18] Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

Would you comment on this verse please? @Netchaplain

Tecarta Bible
I wonder how seriously North American Christians take the strictures against divorce and remarriage of various New Testament passages...

(Luke 16.18; Romans 7.2-3; 1 Corinthians 7.10-11)