The Book of James, an opinion

Episkopos · Apr 18, 2019

marks said:
Man's works do not justify him to God. God justifies us or not. So to whom is Abraham justified by works?

Much love!
Mark

The common mistake is to compare our judgment with God's. God knows who will obey Him in advance. We don't. God knows those who will be faithful till the end. We don't. God knows those who will betray or forsake Him. We don't.

God justified Abraham for his faith...knowing he would also do what he said he would. To God, faith IS doing if it is really faith.

But we can't judge OUR beliefs that way. We can't trust our future selves to remain faithful. Only God can judge these things.

So then a viewpoint that requires a man-made judgment and justification is just that...man-made.

H. Richard · Apr 18, 2019

Dave L said:
I think we must really understand Paul before we can attempt to understand James. I.e., that love fulfills the law. So Abraham's works of love for God were the fulfillment of his justification. Apart from which, his love for God would not exist.

Dave, you seem to have missed this part where Abraham was called righteous solely because he believed God. You don't seem to believe the scripture in Genesis 15.

I am completely convinced that the religious will do anything to say that works of man have to be made so that God will reward them with salvation.

"H. Richard, post: 544643, member: 6940"]It seems that God accounted him righteous solely for his faith in His Promises, and not by anything that he did. There is nothing in Genesis 15 that mentions any works that Abraham did. Paul accurately reports this. It seems that James did not consider the account in Genesis 15. It was not until Genesis 22, many years after Isaac was born, when Abraham was well over 100 years old, that he agreed to offer Isaac.

You can believe what you wish but I am going with the facts as written and not your rationalizations.

Hisman · Apr 18, 2019

Dave L said:
I think we must really understand Paul before we can attempt to understand James. I.e., that love fulfills the law. So Abraham's works of love for God were the fulfillment of his justification. Apart from which, his love for God would not exist.

Agree, both love and awe moved Abraham.

Hisman · Apr 18, 2019

@H. Richard

Very good thread.

H. Richard · Apr 18, 2019

Dave L said:
Works are the completion of justifying faith. Faith is not real apart from them.

You are saying that God does not know the heart of those that trust in His work on the cross unless they do works. I certainly don't believe that.

It is God that knows the heart and He knows those that believe Him. I see no reason to say any more to you because it is obvious that you are of those that believe a person has to do works to earn salvation.

Dave L · Apr 18, 2019

H. Richard said:
Dave, you seem to have missed this part where Abraham was called righteous solely because he believed God. You don't seem to believe the scripture in Genesis 15.

I am completely convinced that the religious will do anything to say that works of man have to be made so that God will reward them with salvation.

"H. Richard, post: 544643, member: 6940"]It seems that God accounted him righteous solely for his faith in His Promises, and not by anything that he did. There is nothing in Genesis 15 that mentions any works that Abraham did. Paul accurately reports this. It seems that James did not consider the account in Genesis 15. It was not until Genesis 22, many years after Isaac was born, when Abraham was well over 100 years old, that he agreed to offer Isaac.

You can believe what you wish but I am going with the facts as written and not your rationalizations.

You assume Abraham didn't react in faith = low level works proving belief.

Dave L · Apr 18, 2019

H. Richard said:
You are saying that God does not know the heart of those that trust in His work on the cross unless they do works. I certainly don't believe that.

It is God that knows the heart and He knows those that believe Him. I see no reason to say any more to you because it is obvious that you are of those that believe a person has to do works to earn salvation.

But Abraham received a blessing knowing he had what it takes.

bbyrd009 · Apr 18, 2019

"ByGrace" said:
So, would you agree James is a blinking hard book to wrap ones head around?
And if he wrote novels they would be so complicated that no one would understand what the plot was?

If James is saying what you say that he is saying...then he is a darn bad writer and communicator.

Now that will send every person who believes that every single word written down was God inspired...and not believe that the essence of the writer himself always creeps into his writing.
I believe James was stuck like Peter was for a while, everything coloured by the law.

Just so you know who you are dealing with, all you have to do is Quote any of the copious Scripture that does not agree with his opinion, and watch him run like the deaf woman that he is
Wadr

marks · Apr 18, 2019

Episkopos said:
The common mistake is to compare our judgment with God's. God knows who will obey Him in advance. We don't. God knows those who will be faithful till the end. We don't. God knows those who will betray or forsake Him. We don't.

God justified Abraham for his faith...knowing he would also do what he said he would. To God, faith IS doing if it is really faith.

But we can't judge OUR beliefs that way. We can't trust our future selves to remain faithful. Only God can judge these things.

So then a viewpoint that requires a man-made judgment and justification is just that...man-made.

Hi Episkopos,

Are you thinking then that this is referring to our works justifying us to ourselves? Am I understanding correctly?

Much love!
Mark

bbyrd009 · Apr 18, 2019

marks said:
Man's works do not justify him to God. God justifies us or not. So to whom is Abraham justified by works?

Much love!
Mark

For all will be called to the throne to account for their works done in the body, whether good or evil.

I can dig up the Quote if you need?

Episkopos · Apr 18, 2019

marks said:
Hi Episkopos,

Are you thinking then that this is referring to our works justifying us to ourselves? Am I understanding correctly?

Much love!
Mark

No, your beliefs. Do you justify yourself because of your beliefs?

Do you know what idee fixe means?

marks · Apr 18, 2019

Episkopos said:
No, your beliefs. Do you justify yourself because of your beliefs?

Do you know what idee fixe means?

I do now - know what that means, that is.

I thought we were talking about Abraham being justified by his works, and what that meant. Is that what you are talking about?

Much love!
Mark

Episkopos · Apr 18, 2019

marks said:
I do now - know what that means, that is.

I thought we were talking about Abraham being justified by his works, and what that meant. Is that what you are talking about?

Much love!
Mark

Abraham was justified by believing God. But it was God that justified him...not himself. You aren't seeing the huge difference between the two. A human belief can easily become an "overvalued idea." It leads to delusional thinking as in the OP.

An overvalued idea is a false or exaggerated and sustained belief that is maintained with much less than delusional intensity (i.e., the individual is able to acknowledge the possibility that the ideas may not be true)

bbyrd009 · Apr 18, 2019

H. Richard said:
There are many on this forum that can see what I wrote is the truth.

You cannot possibly be this deceived, sorry
Name one

Where are they?

bbyrd009 · Apr 18, 2019

H. Richard said:
There are many on this forum that can see what I wrote is the truth. You are just a Gadfly. If you don't know what a Gadfly is look it up in a Dictionary. All you ever do is try to assassinate the character of the posters. I am not alone. You do it to many other too. Like I said you are just a Gadfly.

You are welcome to put your big-boy pants on and address the Scriptures you currently run screaming from like a woman, but don't imagine I care any more, ok. Keep ignoring

bbyrd009 · Apr 18, 2019

Episkopos said:
Abraham was justified by believing God. But it was God that justified him...not himself.

Also God spoke to Abraham directly, and even the form of "believe" there--one of the rare instances when a Christian has actually Quoted more or less accurately I guess--is a clue to the exchange. Why one would want to waste their time with this here I don't know though

marks · Apr 18, 2019

Episkopos said:
Abraham was justified by believing God. But it was God that justified him...not himself.

Of course I know that.

But I don't think we're talking about the same thing.

Episkopos said:
You aren't seeing the huge difference between the two.

You sound very certain of yourself.

You're talking about the man who is "self-justified", like the Pharisee, and the one whom God justifies, like the man who smote his chest, not even daring to look heaven-ward. Like that?

How do you relate this towards what James is talking about?

God teaches us that Abraham was justified by his works. My question is, justified to who? Justified to God? God is the One Who justifies. Then to who? I would answer to others.

The veracity of Abrahams faith is seen in his works by others, and they can then know he is justified by God. His faith is true, and God counts that as righteousness. And because his faith is true, his works demonstrate it.

Anyway, that's how I'd answer.

Much love!
Mark

Helen · Apr 18, 2019

Dave L said:
All I'm saying is saved people keep the law through love for God and people without the tangles of legalism.

Amen Dave, I can agree with that...what burns me is , people who muddle up our salvation , and our works of love which are a product of our salvation relationship. The fruit part and the works part are what establishes our future position in the kingdom. "Works" is linked to our walk with God , never with our salvation. He saved us, and not we ourselves.

Confusion comes when these two are muddled up.

Would you agree @H. Richard

I think you both think that you are in conflict, but to me you are saying the same thing...just differently.

marks · Apr 18, 2019

bbyrd009 said:
For all will be called to the throne to account for their works done in the body, whether good or evil.

I can dig up the Quote if you need?

Not necessary. And often overlooked.

Much love!

Episkopos · Apr 18, 2019

People don't like being challenged on the veracity of their beliefs. That's the way it is with beliefs.

If a person believes the earth is flat...then ANY idea that the world may be round challenges that belief.

If we take that same tendency to the bible we see that doctrines of least resistance...ones that are easy...are the most popular. The OP is a prime example of that. At least it says...an opinion.

I think everyone is entitled to an opinion...just not a follower of Christ.

The Book of James, an opinion

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