If you start with a fresh take on Acts, you can spot their errors. If start with them, you miss the message and replace it with their's.
When is 'Speaking in Tongues', true versus false.
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Always it seems you are speaking of "theirs" and leave it as if "yours" on the other hand must be God's. my point is that there are some Pentecostals who are following Jesus and will make to the end with God because they are into "His". Similarly there are some Catholics who are following Jesus and will make it to the with God. Likewise with perhaps nearly [or all?] other groups we might name. You want to condemn apparently any and all who are not completely in your particular box ["yours".
The "fresh start" in Acts or in the four Gospels or in all of the scriptures won't work either unless we are seeking properly:
Some may have indeed lost their first love, but we are not I believe speaking of those:
"Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." Rev 2:4-5
The first things are as per this verse:
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33
I'm just saying that in my experience with Pentecostals, they know less about Acts and the Holy Spirit than most in the mainline churches.
All 3 statements are absurdly giggle-worthy and shared by no modern academic commentaries on Acts and 1 Corinthians. Dave pontificates from blissful ignorance of the situation at Corinth, where believers spoke in uninterpreted tongues all at once in the flesh and with no apparent apostolic laying on of hands. Only in Acts 2 did the speakers know what they were saying. On this point all the academic commentaries on Acts agree! Worse, by the standards of the church of the first 2 centuries, Dave is blaspheming against the Holy Spirit by denying the legitimacy of His precious charisms (see Didache 11--c. 95 AD). I see now that I need to start a separate thread on speaking in tongues that establishes its ongoing legitimacy by surveying all the relevant NT texts.
Zeph: "When I was seeking the gift of tongues, which I was told should come with the baptism of the Holy Spirit, I was taught to make it up for myself! I was taught, by separate sources, to start blabbering any words, as apparently the Spirit couldn't talk through me unless I done this, and then I would eventually "find" my tongue. Strange advice that never set well with me."
The essence of prejudice is to stereotype a whole spiritual movement by its most ungodly exemplars. Your attitude makes me doubt that you have ever experienced Spirit baptism or that you are feasting on the 9 fruit of the Spirit, which are also easily counterfeited and not often experienced as a totality.
You need to refute this with scripture. Until then you are propagating false doctrine.
I won't argue with your experience for it is yours, but of course what can I do but go along with my own and hopefully what God has shown me. To the extent that each of us is going along with God's we are both right.
But of course we must remember who the Director needs to be at all times:
"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
in the last days demonic spirits will masquerade as God's Spirit. It is not blasphemy nor is it bordering on it to identify them.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Yes, and you also have to watch out for the false charismatic movement, with its many manifestations of 'tongues' being created to mislead. Many Christians are attracted to the charismatic movement to experience this 'spiritual power'. People speak in tongues; they're "slain in the Spirit" and fall down or have "holy laughter" where believers shake uncontrollably with joyous hilarity or they can't stop laughing or people barking like dogs and roaring like wild animals. Are these things really from the Holy Spirit? Can they really be called genuine manifestations of the Holy Spirit?
Quiethinker: "This application of tongues is not for the public domain unless there is an interpreter but as i said in the previous post, check the account in Acts 2. I think it's self explanatory.
You delight in pontificating your anti-tongues screed from ignorance. So here is a simple home work assignment for you.
Both challenges below reflect the modern academic scholarly consensus and the Pentecostal/ Charismatic perspective.
(1) Quote the texts that support private prayer in tongues.
(2) Quote the texts that demonstrate that the outpouring in Acts 2 (despite Acts 10:47; 11:15) is unique in a way that makes it inapplicable to the glossolalia elsewhere in Acts and 1 Corinthians.
You can't immediately answer these 2 questions, can you? Because your cultic bias has kept you ignorant of the consensus scholarly perspective even among scholars who don't accept biblical authority.
Hobie: "Yes, and you also have to watch out for the false charismatic movement, with its many manifestations of 'tongues' being created to mislead. Many Christians are attracted to the charismatic movement to experience this 'spiritual power'. People speak in tongues; they're "slain in the Spirit" and fall down..."
You reveal your appalling ignorance of the origin of being "slain in the Spirit" in John Wesley's great Methodist revival in England and in the First and Second Great Awakenings which swept up Baptists, Methodists, Congregationalists, and Presbyterians. When the Holy Spirit genuinely moves in convicting power, seekers find it impossible to remain on their feet in the face of God's glory. The Bible has many examples of people who fall to the ground in awe of divine glory. Is your own spiritual experiences so impoverished that your alleged encounter with the Spirit can be dismissed as warm fuzzies?
You delight in pontificating your anti-tongues screed from ignorance. So here is a simple home work assignment for you.
Both challenges below reflect the modern academic scholarly consensus and the Pentecostal/ Charismatic perspective.
(1) Quote the texts that support private prayer in tongues.
(2) Quote the texts that demonstrate that the outpouring in Acts 2 (despite Acts 10:47; 11:15) is unique in a way that makes it inapplicable to the glossolalia elsewhere in Acts and 1 Corinthians.
You can't immediately answer these 2 questions, can you? Because your cultic bias has kept you ignorant of the consensus scholarly perspective even among scholars who don't accept biblical authority.
Hobie: "Yes, and you also have to watch out for the false charismatic movement, with its many manifestations of 'tongues' being created to mislead. Many Christians are attracted to the charismatic movement to experience this 'spiritual power'. People speak in tongues; they're "slain in the Spirit" and fall down..."
You reveal your appalling ignorance of the origin of being "slain in the Spirit" in John Wesley's great Methodist revival in England and in the First and Second Great Awakenings which swept up Baptists, Methodists, Congregationalists, and Presbyterians. When the Holy Spirit genuinely moves in convicting power, seekers find it impossible to remain on their feet in the face of God's glory. The Bible has many examples of people who fall to the ground in awe of divine glory. Is your own spiritual experiences so impoverished that your alleged encounter with the Spirit can be dismissed as warm fuzzies?
The problem is that spirits that are nothing but evil demons are basically taking possession of people, and they say its from God. In the islands we see it all the time and we know what it is as it takes over them and has them do. During a Voodoo ceremony, a spirit will enter the individual. The person being possessed considers it to be one of the highest honors that can be bestowed on him or her. Possession is seen as a way the person is integrated into the community or group. The one possessed will often fall to the ground in what appears to be convulsions. They can be helped up but the person will begin to move and act differently as the spirit takes control of his or her body. This is not from God, and or in anyway for anyone to say that this edifies, or helps spread the gospel, or is good or lovely or true. Its simply demonic, and many are being taken over in such manifestations, thinking its the Holy Spirit, when from the evidence it is not.
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You reflect typical Pentecostal dogma which I can prove was wrong from the start of the movement.
Have you even bothered to read my testimony in my tongues thread? If you are honest enough to learn about experiences you haven't had and judgmentally condemn, you would realize that my outpouring of tongues saved me from agnosticism and set my heart on fire to witness to power of the Gospel of Christ's saving atonement. As Jesus taught, "By their fruits you will know them." In an age in which the US church has for several decades been in slow steady decline (losing 20% of its membership in the last 20 years), the Pentecostal movement has grown to 600 million converts, one quarter of the world's Christian population, and continues to grow in leaps and bounds under the mighty anointing of the Holy Spirit. And you, sir, need to study how the NT church understood the sin of blaspheming against the Holy Spirit because you are in danger of having committed it! Read Didache 11:7, a verse that expresses the NT churches understanding of this sin from around 95 AD.
Dave L: "You can dodge the truth but you cannot refute it without scripture."
I have repeatedly refuted you with Scripture and you have had nothing to say about the texts I d\iscuss because you have no answer to the scholarly consensus, not just the Pentecostal consensus.
Dave L: "You reflect typical Pentecostal dogma which I can prove was wrong from the start of the movement"
Dave will now submit his proof!
You haven't even educated yourself by watching the posted documentary and accompanying interview with the Azusa Stree eyewitnesses. At least make a token effort to demonstrate you are capable of intellectual integrity. Your ostrich approach to truth attests your inability to engage in an honest and open inquiry.
I have repeatedly refuted you with Scripture and you have had nothing to say about the texts I d\iscuss because you have no answer to the scholarly consensus, not just the Pentecostal consensus.
Dave L: "You reflect typical Pentecostal dogma which I can prove was wrong from the start of the movement"
Dave will now submit his proof!
You haven't even educated yourself by watching the posted documentary and accompanying interview with the Azusa Stree eyewitnesses. At least make a token effort to demonstrate you are capable of intellectual integrity. Your ostrich approach to truth attests your inability to engage in an honest and open inquiry.We are still all hat and no cattle Berserk. You need to prove the gifts came in other ways than stated in scripture.Dave L: "You can dodge the truth but you cannot refute it without scripture."
I have repeatedly refuted you with Scripture and you have had nothing to say about the texts I d\iscuss because you have no answer to the scholarly consensus, not just the Pentecostal consensus.
Dave L: "You reflect typical Pentecostal dogma which I can prove was wrong from the start of the movement"
Dave will now submit his proof!
You have forever been trying in vain to pull an anti-Pentecostal rabbit out of your HAT. So I guess I'll just have to repeat my refutations, so that readers at least can see the anti-intellectual game you're playing. But first I'll just have to rub your nose in the texts you keep ducking with this challenge: quote the texts I cite to refute your claims and then respond to how I demonstrate the refutation of your position from those texts. I issue this challenge because you are so closed minded that you have apparently neither watched the posted videos nor read my all my posts. After readers have a chance to note your continual evasions, I will again post my refutation, this time in even greater detail.
But when we do you don't believe us. So we are going round in circles which is probably not a good thing to do.
The way to see if its true is like how they check money, the test of a counterfeit bill is simply to compare it with a genuine bill. It is impossible to know without a genuine, for otherwise you have no basis for comparison or standard of measurement. This is always the test of falsehood and we see that the gift was so that other Jews from the diaspora could understand the gospel being given them. Failure to see this is one of the reasons why people start false speaking in tongues or charismatic manifestations and they are "told' it is from the Holy Spirit, yet there is no understanding or any interpretation or any sense of true language, just gibberish, and shaking, and falling, and pure demonic possession. We have to read the scripture to discover the characteristics of the genuine gift of tongues in order that we might compare what we hear, and evaluate it as true or false, and see whether it is genuinely of the Spirit of God, or comes from another source and is a counterfeit gift. The only way that we can possibly know this is to lay it alongside that which is unquestionably true. We know what it is in the islands, those who are possessed with this counterfeit spirit are not bearing the fruits of the Spirit, but rather the works of the flesh. Scripture has many text with the true being compared to the counterfeit.
Galatians 5:19-23
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
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