Why the cross actually saves

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

CoreIssue

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2018
10,032
2,023
113
USA
christiantalkzone.net
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If my beliefs were indefensible, I'd abandon them. When I discovered that Dispensationalism and Jesuit Futurism were indefensible, I did just that (never believed Jesuit Preterism, so no need to do so).

Jesuit Futurism is a historicists believe and a lie.

Dispensationalism is simply the reality of how God has changed his way of dealing with man over time. If you cannot see that the Bible I don't know what to tell you.
 

Laish

Well-Known Member
Feb 17, 2019
208
251
63
57
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If God only pardoned some then He would be unfair.
Why ? If he came to set up a kingdom for the just Jews why is that not unfair ?

He was ready to set it up but the Jews would not accept Him so He didn't set it up. The kingdom was in their midst but Jesus did not set it up because of un-belief.
exactly how was He ready to set up His kingdom ? It seems that you mean or you suggest Jesus or God the Father did not expect rejection. This makes it seem that God is not omniscient. Denying a defining characteristic of God .

Today the pardon is there. Jesus set it up. But most will not believe it and will not take advantage of it.
Actually most will never hear the Gospel. Is that rejection?
Over a third of our population has not even heard of the biblical Jesus .
Question do you know the difference between faith and belief?
You state here as if the two are interchangeable
Without faith (belief) no man can please God.
They are different. The Devil has belief but no faith .
Just looking to see where you are coming from.
Blessings
Bill
 
  • Like
Reactions: SovereignGrace

1stCenturyLady

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2018
5,257
2,136
113
76
Tennessee
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
My point was after Peter was filled with the Holy Ghost, he still made mistakes. Tried to kill Malchus, tried to turn Jesus aside from the path to Calvary, lied 3 times about knowing Jesus...even Jesus said to him concerning the sifting he would soon experience at the hands of Satan, "when you are converted" which is an obvious reference to Peter's repentance after his fall the night of Jesus' trial.

When is it you believe Peter was filled with the Spirit? The word says when; look it up. It wasn't while Peter was under the law, but AFTER Jesus rose from the dead and blew the Spirit into all the apostle's mouths in John 20. That was when they were free of their old carnal nature. (The other followers received that on the Day of Pentecost.) And the apostles received the power filling for ministry on the Day of Pentecost, (and the rest of the followers received their power filling for ministry in Acts 4:29-31.)
 

CoreIssue

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2018
10,032
2,023
113
USA
christiantalkzone.net
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
When is it you believe Peter was filled with the Spirit? The word says when; look it up. It wasn't while Peter was under the law, but AFTER Jesus rose from the dead and blew the Spirit into all the apostle's mouths in John 20. That was when they were free of their old carnal nature. (The other followers received that on the Day of Pentecost.) And the apostles received the power filling for ministry on the Day of Pentecost, (and the rest of the followers received their power filling for ministry in Acts 4:29-31.)

Remember, you are debating a Seventh-day Adventist.
 

Helen

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
15,476
21,155
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
[SIZE=4]@"ByGrace"[/SIZE]
Are you saying that he could not have? ( Sinned) What is your take on this verse?
"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Heb 4:15


How can anyone be tempted to do something wrong if he knows it is impossible for him to DO the wrong?
Jesus did not yield to the temptation and sin, but he certainly could have...


Why did he pray the same prayer three times in Gethsemene? Was it not because the first two times he had not yet overcome all of the world of his own temptations?

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." Matt 26:39

"And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words." Matt 26:44

But he did overcome them, didn't he?

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33

He overcame the world and so must we in order to partake of the Tree of Life...

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev 2:7

This is the Way we must travel to receive the promise of never dying! Those who do not overcome need not expect Life!

<
; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Heb 4:15

How can anyone be tempted to do something wrong if he knows it is impossible for him to DO the wrong?
Jesus did not yield to the temptation and sin, but he certainly could have...>

That statement of yours my friend is the nail on the head!
Jesus legally won the battle against Satan and sin.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: amadeus

Helen

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
15,476
21,155
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Last Adam was most assuredly created, meaning his flesh, not his spirit. That is why he is called the son of God just as the first Adam was son of God.

Yes He was flesh, blood and bone.
Yet I thought it said "begotten" ...not made?
 

SovereignGrace

Certified Flunky
Feb 15, 2019
1,910
1,612
113
Crum, WVa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Thanks for your reply but I disagree with you on this point. I truly believe in the power of the cross and do not place any limit on it.

IMHO, it seems to me that your opinion belittles the work of the cross. Please don't take offense. All have a pardon but if a person doesn't believe they do then they will refuse it and try to get to heaven by doing works to earn it. Without faith (belief) no man can please God. A child of God has faith in their pardon Jesus gave them. Those that refuse to put their faith in God's pardon (HIS WORK ON THE CROSS) will not be saved because of their un-belief that they have a pardon in the work of Jesus (God) on the cross.

If God only pardoned some then He would be unfair. The pardon is there but mankind refuses it so they reap the rewards of those that do not believe God has given them a pardon. Simple as that but most can't accept it. Jesus came to give the Jews their promised kingdom. He was ready to set it up but the Jews would not accept Him so He didn't set it up. The kingdom was in their midst but Jesus did not set it up because of un-belief. Today the pardon is there. Jesus set it up. But most will not believe it and will not take advantage of it.

You take Matthew 25 31 and apply to those under grace. The goat and sheep judgement is at the return of Jesus to set up His kingdom on earth. It applies to those who do, or do not do, to support (help) the Jews in the 7 years trib. There will not be anyone there who has been saved under this age of God's grace. I believe in the rapture before the 7 tears trib.

Are you now going to try and put me, personally , down to show your superior knowledge? I, personally, hate it when posters do that to another person. Oh but that is the nature of many on forums.

Heb 10:28-29
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
NKJV
To call God unfair, even allude to it, is to be on very shaky ground. God chose Noah and seven others and destroyed the rest of humanity. Was He unfair to those He destroyed? No. God chose Abraham, made a covenant with him and his descendants and left the others outside of that covenant. Was He unfair with those He left out of that covenant? No.

For grace to be grace, it has to be free. If God has to offer it to everybody without exception, then it ceases to be grace but becomes an obligation. The Hittites, Hivites, Assyrians, Syrians, Philistines, Jebusites, Moabites, Amalekites, &c., had no covenant with God, had no high priest to intercede for them before God, had no sacrificial system that atoned for their sins. You’re calling God unfair, because He has kept His saving grace from many.

Romans 9:14.
 

SovereignGrace

Certified Flunky
Feb 15, 2019
1,910
1,612
113
Crum, WVa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Thanks for your reply but I disagree with you on this point. I truly believe in the power of the cross and do not place any limit on it.

IMHO, it seems to me that your opinion belittles the work of the cross. Please don't take offense. All have a pardon but if a person doesn't believe they do then they will refuse it and try to get to heaven by doing works to earn it. Without faith (belief) no man can please God. A child of God has faith in their pardon Jesus gave them. Those that refuse to put their faith in God's pardon (HIS WORK ON THE CROSS) will not be saved because of their un-belief that they have a pardon in the work of Jesus (God) on the cross.

If God only pardoned some then He would be unfair. The pardon is there but mankind refuses it so they reap the rewards of those that do not believe God has given them a pardon. Simple as that but most can't accept it. Jesus came to give the Jews their promised kingdom. He was ready to set it up but the Jews would not accept Him so He didn't set it up. The kingdom was in their midst but Jesus did not set it up because of un-belief. Today the pardon is there. Jesus set it up. But most will not believe it and will not take advantage of it.

You take Matthew 25 31 and apply to those under grace. The goat and sheep judgement is at the return of Jesus to set up His kingdom on earth. It applies to those who do, or do not do, to support (help) the Jews in the 7 years trib. There will not be anyone there who has been saved under this age of God's grace. I believe in the rapture before the 7 tears trib.

Are you now going to try and put me, personally , down to show your superior knowledge? I, personally, hate it when posters do that to another person. Oh but that is the nature of many on forums.

Heb 10:28-29
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
NKJV
Also, the cross actually pardoned those it was intended for. There’s nothing that needs to be added to the power of the cross. It’s not the cross saves, but. It’s not the cross plus what we do. It’s not the cross plus anything, that saves us. It’s the cross, cross, cross.
 

H. Richard

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2015
2,345
852
113
Southeast USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Also, the cross actually pardoned those it was intended for. There’s nothing that needs to be added to the power of the cross. It’s not the cross saves, but. It’s not the cross plus what we do. It’s not the cross plus anything, that saves us. It’s the cross, cross, cross.

You reply this to me as if I have said it is plus something. I have never said that anything needed to be added to the power of the cross. Salvation is by placing faith in Jesus' work on the cross plus nothing. Since you go off on a tangent and imply I believe what you say I believe then I see no reason to spend my time correcting your false implications.

As I HAVE SAID, MANY, TIMES, the cross is the power of God to save those that It was intended to save; those of faith. Those that place their faith in His work on the cross plus nothing. Does man have a choice? Absolutely. They must choose to place their faith in their religious works or in What God has done for them. Jesus did not say salvation is only for some.

Have a great day. I certainly am.
 

SovereignGrace

Certified Flunky
Feb 15, 2019
1,910
1,612
113
Crum, WVa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You reply this to me as if I have said it is plus something. I have never said that anything needed to be added to the power of the cross. Salvation is by placing faith in Jesus' work on the cross plus nothing. Since you go off on a tangent and imply I believe what you say I believe then I see no reason to spend my time correcting your false implications.

As I HAVE SAID, MANY, TIMES, the cross is the power of God to save those that It was intended to save; those of faith. Those that place their faith in His work on the cross plus nothing. Does man have a choice? Absolutely. They must choose to place their faith in their religious works or in What God has done for them. Jesus did not say salvation is only for some.

Have a great day. I certainly am.
Seeing faith is a gift of God, we don’t choose to exercise it. It’s part of divine quickening. When God quickens us, we are given faith, exercise it and are saved.
 

SovereignGrace

Certified Flunky
Feb 15, 2019
1,910
1,612
113
Crum, WVa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You reply this to me as if I have said it is plus something. I have never said that anything needed to be added to the power of the cross. Salvation is by placing faith in Jesus' work on the cross plus nothing. Since you go off on a tangent and imply I believe what you say I believe then I see no reason to spend my time correcting your false implications.

As I HAVE SAID, MANY, TIMES, the cross is the power of God to save those that It was intended to save; those of faith. Those that place their faith in His work on the cross plus nothing. Does man have a choice? Absolutely. They must choose to place their faith in their religious works or in What God has done for them. Jesus did not say salvation is only for some.

Have a great day. I certainly am.
Salvation is just for some, the sheep, the elect of God. That’s who the cross was intended for. You say it’s the cross, plus those who choose to exercise their faith. Wrong. The cross is what gives His sheep their faith.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Preacher4Truth

Preacher4Truth

Well-Known Member
Feb 15, 2019
2,252
2,861
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You reply this to me as if I have said it is plus something. I have never said that anything needed to be added to the power of the cross. Salvation is by placing faith in Jesus' work on the cross plus nothing. Since you go off on a tangent and imply I believe what you say I believe then I see no reason to spend my time correcting your false implications.

As I HAVE SAID, MANY, TIMES, the cross is the power of God to save those that It was intended to save; those of faith. Those that place their faith in His work on the cross plus nothing. Does man have a choice? Absolutely. They must choose to place their faith in their religious works or in What God has done for them. Jesus did not say salvation is only for some.

Have a great day. I certainly am.
Choosing doesn't save, none are saved because they chose.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SovereignGrace

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Choosing doesn't save, none are saved because they chose.
Rom 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Evidently calling on the name of the Lord isn't a choice that we make: but the Lord forces the issue, whether a person does or doesn't call on His name.
 
Last edited:

SovereignGrace

Certified Flunky
Feb 15, 2019
1,910
1,612
113
Crum, WVa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Choosing doesn't save, none are saved because they chose.

They just can't grasp it. The cross actually saves. If anyone responds in faith and repentance, it is because of the cross and He who hung, bled, and died on it. They just can't grasp this. They think that since they exercised faith and repentance, they are saved. But it was the cross that did it for them.

Those who die lost died lost because they failed to exercise faith and repentance. Faith and repentance are BOTH gifts of God, and He has purposely withheld these two gifts from many through the annals of time. They say that God is unfair if He does this. That's Romans 9:20 if ever I saw it. Then what about this? “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. When he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard. And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the market place; 4 and to those he said, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.’ And so they went. Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did the same thing. And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing around; and he said to them, ‘Why have you been standing here idle all day long?’ They said to him, ‘Because no one hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You go into the vineyard too.’ “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last group to the first.’ When those hired about the eleventh hour came, each one received a denarius. When those hired first came, they thought that they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius. When they received it, they grumbled at the landowner, saying, ‘These last men have worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the scorching heat of the day.’ But he answered and said to one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius? Take what is yours and go, but I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I am generous?’ So the last shall be first, and the first last.”[Matthew 20:1-16]

Sadly, they think this of God. They believe that God has NO right to do with us as He pleases. Sadly, they think that God did His part by sending His Son to the cross, and they did theirs. Sadly, they do not truly believe the cross saved them, but the cross and their works saved them. :(
 
  • Like
Reactions: Preacher4Truth

SovereignGrace

Certified Flunky
Feb 15, 2019
1,910
1,612
113
Crum, WVa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Choosing doesn't save, none are saved because they chose.

Look at what free will doctrine has brought forth in their ranks..

Arianism: The Christ is not God. He is the Son of God, but not God. So that makes Him less than God, but a rung or two higher than fallen mankind.

Modalism: Also called oneness pentecosatalism. The Christ presents Himself in one of three modes, as either the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit. Not as three distinct Persons, but one Person in three modes.

Molinism: God knows the end and the beginning, but the middle is rather fuzzy. He doesn't truly know until things play out in front of Him.

Mormonism: They believe an angel gave Joseph Smith another book that is an addendum to the word of God.

Jehovah's Witness: They believe that the Christ is a created being and not God.

Seventh Day Adventists: They believe Saturday is the Sabbath and they do no work that day. They hold to the heretic Ellen G. White as a prophetess of God.

Church of Christ: They hold to baptismal regeneration. No matter what God has done, until they are immersed in the H2O, they are not saved.


And we're the ones with the wacky beliefs and are considered a cult?? o_O :rolleyes: :confused: :eek: o_O :confused: :eek: :rolleyes: o_O :rolleyes: :eek: :confused: :rolleyes: o_O
 
Last edited: