The Gift of Tongues: its General Availability, Purpose, and Power

Pearl · Apr 21, 2019

Dave L said:
You might be blaspheming the Holy Spirit claiming the babbling of your sinful flesh comes from him.

You obviously haven't read our testimonies. Why would any being other than the Holy Spirit praise God and give us prophetic words? Why was there such power? And how could a demon or whatever enter a man who was praying and worshiping God. Dave, you seem to be proud, stubborn and deluded.

Dave L · Apr 21, 2019

Pearl said:
You obviously haven't read our testimonies. Why would any being other than the Holy Spirit praise God and give us prophetic words? Why was there such power? And how could a demon or whatever enter a man who was praying and worshiping God. Dave, you seem to be proud, stubborn and deluded.

You are indoctrinated to believe this. But it is unscriptural from the start in the early 1900s.

Enoch111 · Apr 21, 2019

Dave L said:
You cannot authentically speak in tongues today. Nobody does. They only have been trained to think they do.

Those who speak in tongues will insist that they are genuine. But we can see that the gift of modern tongues has been a divisive issue, whereas the Holy Spirit in truth wishes to unite believers.

Jeff Wiebe · Apr 21, 2019

Where does it say this? Where does Paul say its a heavenly language? Looks like you're adding a word that isn't there.

Dave L said:
But Paul clarifies his use of the word. People heard languages as you say. But they were interpretations of a heavenly language understood only by God unless interpreted.

Dave L · Apr 22, 2019

Jeff Wiebe said:
Where does it say this? Where does Paul say its a heavenly language? Looks like you're adding a word that isn't there.

“For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.” (1 Corinthians 14:2)

Jeff Wiebe · Apr 22, 2019

Paul doesn't say its a heavenly language. Picture a guy that only speaks Spanish among a group that speaks only English. No man understands him, only God can. He speaks in the Spirit, referring to his spirit. They are mysteries to the English because they cant understand. Thus the need for an interpreter. Understanding the use of the word Spirit in this context is where people get messed up. "Spirit" has many meanings as I showed earlier. You assume it means Gods Spirit, I'm thinking, so you get heavenly language from it, as do all the people that think there gibberish is a heavenly prayer language. The Bible doesn't say that. Understand what went on in Corinth and you'll understand why Paul said that. I showed you Strong's definition of the word tongue in this context, its a known language, not heavenly. The gift given to the apostle's in Acts was for unbelievers to understand, that was heavenly. The tongues Paul talks about are known languages.

Dave L · Apr 22, 2019

Jeff Wiebe said:
Paul doesn't say its a heavenly language. Picture a guy that only speaks Spanish among a group that speaks only English. No man understands him, only God can. He speaks in the Spirit, referring to his spirit. They are mysteries to the English because they cant understand. Thus the need for an interpreter. Understanding the use of the word Spirit in this context is where people get messed up. "Spirit" has many meanings as I showed earlier. You assume it means Gods Spirit, I'm thinking, so you get heavenly language from it, as do all the people that think there gibberish is a heavenly prayer language. The Bible doesn't say that. Understand what went on in Corinth and you'll understand why Paul said that. I showed you Strong's definition of the word tongue in this context, its a known language, not heavenly. The gift given to the apostle's in Acts was for unbelievers to understand, that was heavenly. The tongues Paul talks about are known languages.

You are misinterpreting Paul trying to make tongues a human language he says no man can understand. He also says tongues speakers speak to God only. And the tongues speaker is edified because he understands what he is saying. And unless he interprets so others can understand, they won't be edified. None of this matches what people call tongues today.

Jeff Wiebe · Apr 22, 2019

You are right, none of what Paul said matches what people call tongues today. I don't know how to make it clearer. You just said what I did but you think I'm misinterpreting. I'll break it down. Here is what you just said.

You are misinterpreting Paul trying to make tongues a human language he says no man can understand. He also says tongues speakers speak to God only. And the tongues speaker is edified because he understands what he is saying. And unless he interprets so others can understand, they won't be edified. None of this matches what people call tongues today.

: Paul trying to make tongues a human language he says no man can understand. Unknown tongue. Strong's call this a known language some don't understand.
:He also says tongues speakers speak to God only. Only God understands your language when you are with people who speak another.
:And the tongues speaker is edified because he understands what he is saying. Only the one speaking the language nobody else understands will be edified, nobody else will benefit so keep silent unless there is an interpreter.

I think you believe the Cloven tongues in Acts are the same tongues Paul talks about. That's the misunderstanding. They are not the same. Tongues simply means language.

Dave L · Apr 22, 2019

Jeff Wiebe said:
You are right, none of what Paul said matches what people call tongues today. I don't know how to make it clearer. You just said what I did but you think I'm misinterpreting. I'll break it down. Here is what you just said.

You are misinterpreting Paul trying to make tongues a human language he says no man can understand. He also says tongues speakers speak to God only. And the tongues speaker is edified because he understands what he is saying. And unless he interprets so others can understand, they won't be edified. None of this matches what people call tongues today.

: Paul trying to make tongues a human language he says no man can understand. Unknown tongue. Strong's call this a known language some don't understand.
:He also says tongues speakers speak to God only. Only God understands your language when you are with people who speak another.
:And the tongues speaker is edified because he understands what he is saying. Only the one speaking the language nobody else understands will be edified, nobody else will benefit so keep silent unless there is an interpreter.

I think you believe the Cloven tongues in Acts are the same tongues Paul talks about. That's the misunderstanding. They are not the same. Tongues simply means language.

You have no scripture to support tongues were any different in Acts from Corinthians. You need to rewrite scripture to make your doctrine hold up. But if you remain true to God's word, Pentecostalism goes out the window.

Jeff Wiebe · Apr 22, 2019

Yes I do. You just misunderstand the scripture.
Act 2:3
And there appeared unto them "cloven tongues" like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. Heavenly tongues.
1Co 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, "diversities of tongues". Different languages.
If you cant see the difference and understand what went on in Corinth I cant help you understand what Paul is saying in Corinthians.

Dave L · Apr 22, 2019

Jeff Wiebe said:
Yes I do. You just misunderstand the scripture.
Act 2:3
And there appeared unto them "cloven tongues" like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. Heavenly tongues.
1Co 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, "diversities of tongues". Different languages.
If you cant see the difference and understand what went on in Corinth I cant help you understand what Paul is saying in Corinthians.

Do you understand what you are saying when speaking in tongues?

Berserk · Apr 22, 2019

Enoch: "Those who speak in tongues will insist that they are genuine. But we can see that the gift of modern tongues has been a divisive issue, whereas the Holy Spirit in truth wishes to unite believers."

"Do you think I have come to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division (Luke 12:51)!" The division is created by Christians who blaspheme against the Spirit by rejecting His precious charisms like speaking in tongues.

Dave L: "If you can show another way of distributing the gifts besides the two outpourings or through an apostle's hands, you can prove you are not wrong in this."

Many of us (like Nancy and myself on this site) receive the gift of tongues through seeking in private with no laying on of hands. Dave, Paul refutes your assumption that Acts 2:17 and 10:44-46 are the only 2 NT "outpourings of the Holy Spirit."

(1) "This Spirit He has poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by grace, we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life (Titus 3:6-7)."
Notice that the experience of the Spirit's outpouring is a standard expectation with no mention of laying on hands here.

(2) "My speech and my proclamation were not with plausible words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might not rest on the human wisdom, but on the power of God (1 Corinthians 2:4-5)."
Just as the Spirit is poured out on Cornelius' household as Peter preaches, so God's power manifests through the ecstatic gifts of the Spirit during Paul's preaching at Corinth, so that he can summarize the result thus: "The testimony of Christ has been strengthened among you, so that you are not lacking in any spiritual gift (1:6-7)."

(3) Evangelical tongues haters are clueless about how important the power and demonstration of the Spirit through His charismata are for the life of faith:
"I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills, and I will find out not the [God] talk of these arrogant people, but their power. For the kingdom of God depends not on talk, but on power (4:19-20)."

(4) Paul witnesses the outpouring of the Spirit during his initial preaching at Corinth. But as that church grows, the new tongues speakers create confusion by disrupting services without interpretations. Paul hears about this from their letter (7:1) and therefore has NOT imparted the gift of tongues to them himself through the laying on of hands! The believer's reception of the Spirit is associated with baptism (either before or after it), but at Corinth Paul has only baptized Crispus, Gaius, and the household of Stephanus (1:14-16).

(5) Paul would chastise evangelical tongues haters for making the initial reception of the Spirit simply a matter of faith with no verifying power or miracles from the gifts of the Spirit:
"Are you so foolish? Having started with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh? Did you experience so much for nothing...? Well then, does God supply you with the Spirit and work miracles among you by your doing the works of the Law or by your believing what you heard (Galatians 3:3-5)?"

Jeff Wiebe · Apr 22, 2019

Dave L said:
Do you understand what you are saying when speaking in tongues?

I don't speak in tongues/other languages.

Pearl · Apr 22, 2019

Dave L said:
Do you understand what you are saying when speaking in tongues?

With my first experience it was a song and I got the interpretation immediately. When I don't know how to pray and start off in tongues before I pray with understanding I usually get given subjects I hadn't even thought of. So that too is an interpretation.

Dave L · Apr 22, 2019

Pearl said:
With my first experience it was a song and I got the interpretation immediately. When I don't know how to pray and start off in tongues before I pray with understanding I usually get given subjects I hadn't even thought of. So that too is an interpretation.

This is not in line with scripture. Not saying you didn't (or don't) experience something of your own making.

Dave L · Apr 22, 2019

Jeff Wiebe said:
I don't speak in tongues/other languages.

Good for you.

Berserk · Apr 22, 2019

Dave L said:
This is not in line with scripture. Not saying you didn't (or don't) experience something of your own making.

Are you the Pope? How can you be so arrogant that you dismiss Pearl's tongues experience as unscriptural without even offering biblical grounds? And Peal, note carefully that, as usual, Dave ducks my 5-point biblical refutation of his bogus anti-tongues rationale
But I'm not finished with him yet. More refutations will be posted shortly.

Dave L · Apr 22, 2019

Berserk said:
Are you the Pope? How can you be so arrogant that you dismiss Pearl's tongues experience as unscriptural without even offering biblical grounds? And Peal, note carefully that, as usual, Dave ducks my 5-point biblical refutation of his bogus anti-tongues rationale
But I'm not finished with him yet. More refutations will be posted shortly.

Every Charismatic thinks they got something unless they scope it out in scripture.

Berserk · Apr 22, 2019

REPLY TO THE OBJECION THAT MODERN SPEAKING IN TONGUES IS NEVER A MODERN LANGUAGE

Modern speaking in tongues can at times express modern languages. (1) In his awe-inspiring book "Jesus in Beijing," NYT reporter David Aikman reports a message in tongues in Hebrew in a Pentecostal church in Almonte, CA. The preacher's wife who gave the message didn't know Hebrew, but the message was understood by a visiting American Jew. It called Dennis Balcombe to be a missionary to China. Tens of thousands were converted to Christian Charismatics through his secret mission work there. (2) I traveled with Loren Cunningham, founder of Youth with a Mission. He was given a message in tongues in the language of a remote Amazon tribe his team was visiting. The result was a great witness and healing of a woman with a severe cataract problem. (3) A family in Saskatchewan received a message in tongues in Swahili, the language of the remote tribe where their daughter had been very sick, but could not be contacted. An African present in the meeting confirmed that the message in tongues was in Swahili. It confirmed that the daughter was OK and would return home soon. Such examples could be multiplied.

Dave L · Apr 22, 2019

Berserk said:
REPLY TO THE OBJECION THAT MODERN SPEAKING IN TONGUES IS NEVER A MODERN LANGUAGE

Modern speaking in tongues can at times express modern languages. (1) In his awe-inspiring book "Jesus in Beijing," NYT reporter David Aikman reports a message in tongues in Hebrew in a Pentecostal church in Almonte, CA. The preacher's wife who gave the message didn't know Hebrew, but the message was understood by a visiting American Jew. It called Dennis Balcombe to be a missionary to China. Tens of thousands were converted to Christian Charismatics through his secret mission work there. (2) I traveled with Loren Cunningham, founder of Youth with a Mission. He was given a message in tongues in the language of a remote Amazon tribe his team was visiting. The result was a great witness and healing of a woman with a severe cataract problem. (3) A family in Saskatchewan received a message in tongues in Swahili, the language of the remote tribe where their daughter had been very sick, but could not be contacted. An African present in the meeting confirmed that the message in tongues was in Swahili. It confirmed that the daughter was OK and would return home soon. Such examples could be multiplied.

It wasn't in Acts. Any claims to this are not describing biblical tongues. Possibly a miracle though.

The Gift of Tongues: its General Availability, Purpose, and Power

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