When did the church start?

H. Richard · Apr 21, 2019

Why is it important to know when the church for this age of grace started?

If we think that the church for this age started with Peter on the day of Pentecost then we must consider that Peter was still a Jew, speaking to Jews, going to the Jewish Temple to worship and that he still wanted to keep the Law of Moses when he told God he did not want to eat anything unclean and that his going to the house of a Gentile would make him unclean.. (see supporting scriptures below)

In other words he considered himself to still be under the Jewish law. No where in his preaching on the day of Pentecost did he indicate that no one was under the Law of Moses. Therefore if the church started with Peter’s preaching on the day of Pentecost, then the church started under the Law of Moses, not grace, and Paul’s gospel was a heresy.

In addition, the scriptures state the gospel of grace that was given to Paul had been hidden in God and was now revealed to Paul. Therefore, the gospel of grace was not given to mankind until Paul preached it.

Therefore a person has to choose whether he is in a church started under the law of Moses or a church that started under grace the day Paul, preached the gospel of grace. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t mix law and grace without destroying them both and, in my opinion, that is just what most of the churches of today are doing.

According to the scriptures the world will be judged according to Paul’s gospel (not Peter‘s). That is why it is important to know when your church started.

Written by H Richard

Supporting scripture:

Acts 2:46
46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart,
NKJV

Acts 3:1
3 Now Peter and John went up together to the temple at the hour of prayer, the ninth hour.
NKJV

Acts 3:6 8
6 Then Peter said, "Silver and gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk."
7 And he took him by the right hand and lifted him up, and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.
8 So he, leaping up, stood and walked and entered the temple with them — walking, leaping, and praising God.
NKJV

Acts 5:25
25 So one came and told them, saying, "Look, the men whom you put in prison are standing in the temple and teaching the people!"
NKJV

Acts 5:41 42
41 So they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for His name.
42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they did not cease teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ.
NKJV

Helen · Apr 21, 2019

The Day Christ Died the Church was birthed.

FHII · Apr 21, 2019

"ByGrace" said:
The Day Christ Died the Church was birthed.

I must disagree.

First off, H. Richard is talking about the gentile Church. He is correct in stating it came to be under Paul. I believe the seed had been planted by Jesus. During his ministry they were still under the law and observed it. But Jesus started talking about faith more and more. He said the law and the prophets we're until John (the Baptist).

Still, it wasn't until Paul preached that the mystery was fully revealed.

On another level I disagree. When Christ died the Church died with him.

But when he resurrected...

Helen · Apr 21, 2019

FHII said:
I must disagree.

First off, H. Richard is talking about the gentile Church. He is correct in stating it came to be under Paul. I believe the seed had been planted by Jesus. During his ministry they were still under the law and observed it. But Jesus started talking about faith more and more. He said the law and the prophets we're until John (the Baptist).

Still, it wasn't until Paul preached that the mystery was fully revealed.

On another level I disagree. When Christ died the Church died with him.

But when he resurrected...

It may not have been revealed until Paul. With that I can agree.
The physical church didn't appear.
But all things being spiritual , as Eve came out of the side of first Adam,
so The Spiritual Bride must have come out of the side of the Last Adam.

His side was pierced ( as was Adam's figuratively) ..His Bride/Church came from Him on the cross.

There endeth my two cents.

Jane_Doe22 · Apr 21, 2019

H. Richard said:
When did the church start?

H. Richard said:
Why is it important to know when the church for this age of grace started?

These are two very different questions.

The Church of God has been on the Earth as long as there have been people on the Earth, and pre-dates even that.
When the New Covenant started would be transition after Christ's death/resurrection/ascension through when the original Apostles teaching it the next ~20 years. It does take time for people to learn new things/ways.

H. Richard said:
Therefore a person has to choose whether he is in a church started under the law of Moses or a church that started under grace the day Paul, preached the gospel of grace. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t mix law and grace without destroying them both and, in my opinion, that is just what most of the churches of today are doing.

Totally disagree with you there. God is God.

FHII · Apr 21, 2019

"ByGrace" said:
It may not have been revealed until Paul. With that I can agree.
The physical church didn't appear.
But all things being spiritual , as Eve came out of the side of first Adam,
so The Spiritual Bride must have come out of the side of the Last Adam.

His side was pierced ( as was Adam's figuratively) ..His Bride/Church came from Him on the cross.

There endeth my two cents.

I am a little surprised you didn't catch my last point . The Church wasn't born when Christ died... It died with him.

Helen · Apr 21, 2019

FHII said:
I am a little surprised you didn't catch my last point . The Church wasn't born when Christ died... It died with him.

Yes I missed your last line about dying with him...and....."resurrected"!!

VictoryinJesus · Apr 21, 2019

FHII said:
On another level I disagree. When Christ died the Church died with him.

But when he resurrected...

What do you mean? Not disagreeing but what church died with him?

farouk · Apr 21, 2019

It started at Pentecost, Acts 2.

FHII · Apr 21, 2019

R

VictoryinJesus said:
What do you mean? Not disagreeing but what church died with him?

Read Romans 6:6 on down.

FHII · Apr 21, 2019

farouk said:
It started at Pentecost, Acts 2.

Well H. Richard already explained why that wasn't so.

Helen · Apr 21, 2019

farouk said:
It started at Pentecost, Acts 2.

No way...you are speaking only about the people...but "The Church" was in Christ before that..as Eve was in Adam.

Helen · Apr 21, 2019

VictoryinJesus said:
What do you mean? Not disagreeing but what church died with him?

...and see post #4

( my take )

But I agree with FHll that she was in Him on the cross , therefor died with Him and rose with Him.

farouk · Apr 21, 2019

"ByGrace" said:
No way...you are speaking only about the people...but "The Church" was in Christ before that..as Eve was in Adam.

Ephesians 1 indicates that we were chosen in Him from before the foundation of the world.

The Spirit, promised by the Lord Jesus before His Ascension, came to indwell at Pentecost, which marked the beginning of the church age.

Helen · Apr 21, 2019

farouk said:
Ephesians 1 indicates that we were chosen in Him from before the foundation of the world.

The Spirit, promised by the Lord Jesus before His Ascension, came to indwell at Pentecost, which marked the beginning of the church age.

I say the Church was always 'in Him' , but agree the Church wasn't "anointed" until Pentecost .

justbyfaith · Apr 21, 2019

The Holy Spirit was given to the general church population on the day of Pentecost, thus forming the body of Christ; which I would identify as those who are indwelt by Him/ His Holy Spirit.

On another issue in this thread I find the following scripture quite interesting:

Gal 2:7, But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

Are there two gospels?

In this passage, the gospel of the circumcision was committed to Peter, I assume that it was committed to him by the Lord.

So then, Peter's gospel, to the circumcision, was not a gospel of condemnation for those who would receive it.

It (Peter's gospel) does entail more understanding to be able to wrap your mind around how the law and grace fit together; whereas Paul's gospel (to the uncircumcision) focused on grace alone and I think that Paul trusted the Lord to produce the fruit by which the behaviour of the Galatians would not be in violation of any law (Galatians 5:22-23).

Enoch111 · Apr 21, 2019

H. Richard said:
Therefore a person has to choose whether he is in a church started under the law of Moses or a church that started under grace the day Paul, preached the gospel of grace.

You continue to misunderstand and misinterpret the Word, as though no one has responded to your nonsense in other posts. So let's see what is "the Church" and when it originated, and how it originated.

THE CHURCH: JEW AND GENTILE IN ONE BODY (A MYSTERY NOW REVEALED)
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:...Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God... (Eph 3:4-6; 2:19)

ORIGIN: ON THE DAY OF PENTECOST
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear...Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost... And the Lord added to the Church daily such as should be saved. (Acts 2:32,33,38,47)

BELIEVING ISRAEL: THE GOOD OLIVE TREE TO WHICH GENTILES ARE GRAFTED
And if some of the branches [UNBELIEVING JEWS] be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree [GENTILE], wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree... For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree [BELIEVING ISRAEL]: how much more shall these [UNBELIEVING JEWS], which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? (Rom 11:17,24)

1. So, in a nutshell, the Church could only begin AFTER the promised Holy Spirit was poured out on the earth on the Day of Pentecost (the harvest of souls represented in this harvest feast), even though the New Covenant went into effect the day Christ died.

2. Since the New Covenant (including the promise of the Spirit) was given to Israel, it was believing Israel in Jerusalem which was the first church, and the origin of the Church the Body of Christ. (Even Peter was not fully convinced that the Gentiles would be in this Body).

3. Therefore God sent Peter specifically to the household of the Gentile Cornelius, where Peter and his believing Jewish companions saw that the Holy Spirit was also given to the Gentiles (the evidence being their speaking in tongues). This is when the Gentiles started to be grafted into the olive tree of believing Israel.

4. However, it was Paul who was given the full revelation regarding the Church (redeemed Jews and Gentiles in one Body without distinction), and he wrote extensively about the meaning of the Church, and God's eternal plan and purpose for it.

amadeus · Apr 22, 2019

@H. Richard
Did not the Church begin when people began to come to Life? When was that?
Jesus brought Life but when was the quickening Spirit poured out so that people could have a vision?

"Where there is no vision, the people perish..." Prov 29:18 [without vision there was death rather than Life]

"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:" Joel 2:28

Peter speaks:

"But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:" Acts 2:16-18

The apostle Paul confirms that vision has begun... people are beginning to see, although their vision need to move on to the "face to face"...

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

So then again the question of the OP: When did the Church Start? Remembering that the Church is people, Live people, the Church started subsequent to the deaths of Adam and Eve when they began to be born again to Life as result of both the opening of the Way by Jesus and pouring out of the Life giving Spirit. Are not Both necessary for Life? Does not the Church consist of people with the Life which Jesus is?

H. Richard · Apr 23, 2019

Were the people of God in the OT saved by grace, IN THE SAME WAY WE ARE TODAY, under Paul's gospel of God's grace?

IMHO my answer is NO. They were under God's mercy, not under the gospel of God's grace." Read Psalm 136. The word "mercy" is used 26 times in 26 verses! This is the Biblical testimony as to how God worked in the Old Testament, “”through His mercy.””

I believe the OT saints were placed in a place called Paradise by God's mercy to wait for the promised Christ (Jesus) to actually pay for their sins of the flesh. He, God, overlooked their sin in the flesh and placed them in a place called Paradise.

IMHO their coming out of Hades is what Jesus meant when he said the Gates of Hades will not prevail against His Church by preventing them from coming out.

I have said what I believe, now I will show you why. Let us see what the Scriptures tell us.

We see that Jesus went from the cross to be three days in the heart of the earth.

Matt 12:40
40 "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
(NKJ)

We see what he did while He was there.

1 Pet 3:19
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
(NKJ) ----- (prison = Paradise = center of the earth)

We must consider that when Jesus told the thief on the cross that "TODAY" you will be with me in Paradise" He meant with Him in the heart of the earth and that means that Paradise, AT THAT TIME, was a section in Hades spoken of by Jesus in Luke 16:19-26.

The spirits in prison were the O.T. spirits of the people that believed God and were accounted as righteous and placed in the bosom of Abraham until Jesus paid for their sins. Accounted does not mean that any of them had their sins washed in the blood of Christ since it had not yet been shed.

Remember the story Jesus told about the rich man and the beggar named Lazarus (Luke 16:19-26) The beggar was placed in Abraham's bosom, not Jesus' bosom. However, today, we are placed in Jesus' bosom (in Christ) and "perhaps" we join those that were put there when they left Paradise.

So then, the OT saints were "accounted as righteous" but not yet righteous, because their sins had not yet been paid for.

We, today, under the gospel of God's grace which is in effect today, are made Children of God right now. We are made righteous right now when we place our faith in Him because the sin debt has already been paid. According to Paul, today, when a believer dies, he is instantly in the presence of Jesus.

Gal 3:8-9
8 And the Scripture, """"foreseeing that God would"" justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham """"beforehand,""" saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed."
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
(NKJ)

If you look at the words between the """" """" you see that the gospel of justification under grace (the gospel of God's grace) was not an accomplished fact ""AT THAT TIME"" but was told it would occur in the future. I believe it occurred after Jesus died on the cross, was raised from the dead, and God sent Paul to proclaim it.

FHII · Apr 23, 2019

H. Richard said:
Were the people of God in the OT saved by grace, IN THE SAME WAY WE ARE TODAY, under Paul's gospel of God's grace?

IMHO my answer is NO. They were under God's mercy, not under the gospel of God's grace." Read Psalm 136. The word "mercy" is used 26 times in 26 verses! This is the Biblical testimony as to how God worked in the Old Testament, “”through His mercy.””

I believe the OT saints were placed in a place called Paradise by God's mercy to wait for the promised Christ (Jesus) to actually pay for their sins of the flesh. He, God, overlooked their sin in the flesh and placed them in a place called Paradise.

IMHO their coming out of Hades is what Jesus meant when he said the Gates of Hades will not prevail against His Church by preventing them from coming out.

I have said what I believe, now I will show you why. Let us see what the Scriptures tell us.

We see that Jesus went from the cross to be three days in the heart of the earth.

Matt 12:40
40 "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
(NKJ)

We see what he did while He was there.

1 Pet 3:19
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
(NKJ) ----- (prison = Paradise = center of the earth)

We must consider that when Jesus told the thief on the cross that "TODAY" you will be with me in Paradise" He meant with Him in the heart of the earth and that means that Paradise, AT THAT TIME, was a section in Hades spoken of by Jesus in Luke 16:19-26.

The spirits in prison were the O.T. spirits of the people that believed God and were accounted as righteous and placed in the bosom of Abraham until Jesus paid for their sins. Accounted does not mean that any of them had their sins washed in the blood of Christ since it had not yet been shed.

Remember the story Jesus told about the rich man and the beggar named Lazarus (Luke 16:19-26) The beggar was placed in Abraham's bosom, not Jesus' bosom. However, today, we are placed in Jesus' bosom (in Christ) and "perhaps" we join those that were put there when they left Paradise.

So then, the OT saints were "accounted as righteous" but not yet righteous, because their sins had not yet been paid for.

We, today, under the gospel of God's grace which is in effect today, are made Children of God right now. We are made righteous right now when we place our faith in Him because the sin debt has already been paid. According to Paul, today, when a believer dies, he is instantly in the presence of Jesus.

Gal 3:8-9
8 And the Scripture, """"foreseeing that God would"" justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham """"beforehand,""" saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed."
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
(NKJ)

If you look at the words between the """" """" you see that the gospel of justification under grace (the gospel of God's grace) was not an accomplished fact ""AT THAT TIME"" but was told it would occur in the future. I believe it occurred after Jesus died on the cross, was raised from the dead, and God sent Paul to proclaim it.

Don't forget this verse:

Matthew 27:52-53 KJV
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, [53] And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

I don't know that they were in paradise beforehand. But they may have been in a holding place separate from "hell" as we think of it.

Putting all things together, I believe they were in hell, but a different division. Christ ascended to that place and they arose with him. They are now in paradise which is the 3rd heaven.

They should keep folks busy for a while!

When did the church start?

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