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H. Richard

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Not everyone in the OT was a farmer and there were plenty of times people gave money.


I imagine the are crooked preachers who "demand" a tenth of your income, but probably most who talk about tithes simply ask for it and preach about it.

So if we aren't farmers are we not supposed to give?


Actually there is.

Matthew 23:23 KJV
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Jesus said they ought to pay tithes, but they left some things undone. Jesus had no problem with tithing.

The NT concept of giving is to give as your heart says. The widow and most of the folks in Acts 4 gave all they had.


Giving a tithe was under the Law of Moses to support the Temple. Today the children of God do not have a physical Temple If a person says we are to give a tithe aren't they preaching Law?

I support giving but not by law.
 
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FHII

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Giving a tithe was under the Law of Moses to support the Temple. Today the children of God do not have a physical Temple If a person says we are to give a tithe aren't they preaching Law?

I support giving but not by law.
Tithing was instituted by Abraham which is before the Law. Now Gal 3:17 says that promises made before the law are not disannuled by the Law.

It's all a moot point because the new requirement on giving is found in 2 Cor 9:7 which says give as you have purposeth in your heart. Just don't do it grudgingly.

So no... Tithing isn't required. But to say it's part of the law, not in the NT or wrong is false. Jesus still said we ought to... Not a requirement, but he said we ought to.
 

farouk

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Tithing was instituted by Abraham which is before the Law. Now Gal 3:17 says that promises made before the law are not disannuled by the Law.

It's all a moot point because the new requirement on giving is found in 2 Cor 9:7 which says give as you have purposeth in your heart. Just don't do it grudgingly.

So no... Tithing isn't required. But to say it's part of the law, not in the NT or wrong is false. Jesus still said we ought to... Not a requirement, but he said we ought to.
I guess that because it's not a requirement it's not an 'under the law' obligation. Under the law it was to the Levitical prieshood that tithes were to be given; and this priesthood has been changed, Hebrews 7.12.
 

marksman

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I have been to a seder once and boy do they drink allot of wine! Lol...I cannot remember much on the food except eggs, matzo (?) horseradish and dipping the bitter herb. It was in like in 1993, shortly after that, I was invited to a Bar Mitzvah! That was fun.

Lucky you if that is the right term. The wine would have been wasted on me as a couple of glasses and I am gone.
 
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marksman

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Not everyone in the OT was a farmer and there were plenty of times people gave money.


I imagine the are crooked preachers who "demand" a tenth of your income, but probably most who talk about tithes simply ask for it and preach about it.

So if we aren't farmers are we not supposed to give?


Actually there is.

Matthew 23:23 KJV
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Jesus said they ought to pay tithes, but they left some things undone. Jesus had no problem with tithing.

The NT concept of giving is to give as your heart says. The widow and most of the folks in Acts 4 gave all they had.

The verse you quoted was directed to the priests under the Old Covenant. It does not apply to believers under the New Covenant. Unless you know how to exegete scripture you would not be aware of this.
 

marksman

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Good point, Jesus did not need to specify how often.
Even so, as Jews, they would have understood the reference to "Do this in remembrance..." in terms of the Law which commanded them to "remember the Sabbath, to keep it". But of course that would have been to them the last thing they'd given a thought, because, what can the Holy Sabbath Day have to do with This Man clothed like a slave kneeling down before us washing our feet all aspiring to be the greatest in the Kingdom of God?... can This Man call on us to eat this humble meal of bread and wine "as often" as the "Sabbath, OF THE LORD GOD" is "remembered"? Nooooo.... we don't think so.

Yet, as it turned out not long after, Christ's apostle Paul recorded for posterity, "Do not let yourselves be judged or condemned with regard to your EATING AND DRINKING OF CHRIST THE SUBSTANCE THE NOURISHMENT OF FEAST MINISTERED, whether of month's or of SABBATHS'" of however "often" occurrence. Colossians 2:16. "Whenever you do this [the Lord's Supper], do it in remembrance of Me" "concerning (whom) Moses and all the Prophets in all the Scriptures and in the Law and in the Psalms, wrote", which "of old (that is, from the beginning of the Good News of Jesus Christ being proclaimed) IS BEING read (by) THEM THAT PREACH HIM -Jesus Christ- in the churches EVERY SABBATH".

So that was "how often" Jesus meant his "EATING AND DRINKING" OF "SUFFERING" the Passover of Yahweh Suffering, soon after, would be "remembered", "for God .. in these last days BY THE SON .. thus spake concerning the Seventh Day."

If you want to be so pedantic, I do hope you meet on the biblical sabbath - Saturday.
 

marksman

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Jesus attended feasts, but we do not read that He ever ate of any feast, except his Last Passover of Yahweh which He ate of, through his Suffering the Death of The First-Born of the Almighty "IN THIS THAT SELFSAME BONE-ESSENTIAL NIGHT" of God's Eternal Covenant of Grace, "on the fourteenth day of the First Month of Passover to you the children of Israel".

Gulp! That has got to be the weirdest interpretation of scripture I have ever read. May I suggest you get some books on the customs and habits of the Jews and find out what went on during the EATING at feasts.
 

marksman

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If we really delve into the Christian meaning of the OT feasts, we will find that our bland traditional interpretations of them are robbing them of the richness of their original meaning, which was to lead Israel of God to their Saviour. But because they did not search the Scriptures to find Him, they failed to recognise Him when He arrived, their True Meaning the Christ of God Saviour.

Therefore, yes, Seder was the meal that began the celebration of the Passover week of ULB, but with Jesus' Last Passover of Yahweh Suffering, BECAUSE OF HIS SUFFERING OF IT HAVING BEEN THE PASSOVER LAMB OF GOD, the Jews did not eat it-- Christ ate it BEING the Passover of Yahweh SUFFERING BEING the Culmination of Law and Prophesy and BEING the very End of all the OT feasts.

So the Seder ever since Jesus' Last Passover Suffering of Yahweh "AT THE TABLE" of "the Lord's Supper in the Night He was betrayed" "according to the Scriptures" "on the first day they KILLED the passover the very first day they REMOVED leaven", is become a purely Jewish feast that includes reading, drinking wine, telling stories, eating special foods, singing, and other Jewish passover traditions. Not the Christian and NEW, "Lord's Supper".

I never said it did.
 

marksman

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Biblically, The Lord's table is simple.

They sat down to have a last meal together. Christ picked up the bread and broke it into pieces to share. One loaf, not many, not wafers and not crackers.

It represented his body broken on the cross.

He picked up the cup of wine. Nothing fancy, a regular cup of the day and drank wine from it.

It represented the blood he would shed on the cross. Which clearly meant in the day his life. Life is in the blood.

In the ancient Jewish practice the bread was broken during the blessing given at the start of a meal. The one giving the blessing broke the bread.

The blessing Jesus gave was the announcement of the new covenant of blood. His blood. Not the still future new covenant to the houses of Judah and Israel as talked about Jeremiah and Hebrews.

There was no frequency stated. Simply whenever you set down for such a meal.

Everyone at that table knew what it meant. But today the denominations do not do not know.

The only ones who do it correctly I am aware of are the very small Non-denominational churches and groups.

There is no requirement for it to take place in the church under the leadership of the pastor. No fancy liturgy attached.

As with many other things denominations have taken the simplicity of Christianity established by Jesus and the apostles and tried to copy the Old Testament priest and meetings.

Some good comments except his body was not broken. It is not in the original.
 

marksman

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If you will recall, the Last Supper was held in the late evening, and according to Jewish reckoning, the 13th of Nisan was already over by sunset, so the Last Supper was actually on the 14th of Nisan, as required for the Passover Meal. It is impossible that the Lord would not observe the Passover strictly in accordance with the Law of Moses:

These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. In the fourteenth day of the first month [Nisan] at even is the LORD'S Passover. (Lev 23:4,5)

And since Christ died later on that same day BEFORE SUNSET, He died on the 14th of Nisan as "Christ our Passover".

Today the Last Supper is the Lord's Supper, and so this OP has a lot of nonsense in it (meant to be provocative).

I like what you said apart from your last sentence. If the last supper, celebrated once a year, is the Lord's supper, celebrated every week or as is the case with Roman Catholics, every day, who don't we celebrate it once a year? Not logical.
 

marksman

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If you will recall, the Last Supper was held in the late evening, and according to Jewish reckoning, the 13th of Nisan was already over by sunset, so the Last Supper was actually on the 14th of Nisan, as required for the Passover Meal. It is impossible that the Lord would not observe the Passover strictly in accordance with the Law of Moses:

These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. In the fourteenth day of the first month [Nisan] at even is the LORD'S Passover. (Lev 23:4,5)

And since Christ died later on that same day BEFORE SUNSET, He died on the 14th of Nisan as "Christ our Passover".

Today the Last Supper is the Lord's Supper, and so this OP has a lot of nonsense in it (meant to be provocative).

P.S. If you are trying to provoke me don't bother. I am too old and too sure of what I believe to be provoked. Having been taught by some of the finest teachers on the planet, having a theological degree from Bible College, having taught in Bible College, having the gift of teaching and have a professional qualification in teaching and a personal library of over 1,000 books, many of whom are written by giants of the faith, I am way past being provoked.
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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If you want to be so pedantic, I do hope you meet on the biblical sabbath - Saturday.

Pedantic? Is PURE SCRIPTURE, pedantic to you? Is <on the biblical sabbath>, pedantic to you? If I like you did, wrote, <- Saturday>, it would be pedantic, but now there is no Bible-Sabbath that is <- Saturday>. Are you sure you know what the word 'pedantic' means?; what the word 'Saturday', means?! And you think you are equipped to write in this BIBLE forum?

Chappie, you must go back to Medium School!
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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P.S. If you are trying to provoke me don't bother. I am too old and too sure of what I believe to be provoked. Having been taught by some of the finest teachers on the planet, having a theological degree from Bible College, having taught in Bible College, having the gift of teaching and have a professional qualification in teaching and a personal library of over 1,000 books, many of whom are written by giants of the faith, I am way past being provoked.

Hell... BANG!!!!!
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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I never said it did.

Did not do what in...
If we really delve into the Christian meaning of the OT feasts, we will find that our bland traditional interpretations of them are robbing them of the richness of their original meaning, which was to lead Israel of God to their Saviour. But because they did not search the Scriptures to find Him, they failed to recognise Him when He arrived, their True Meaning the Christ of God Saviour.

Therefore, yes, Seder was the meal that began the celebration of the Passover week of ULB, but with Jesus' Last Passover of Yahweh Suffering, BECAUSE OF HIS SUFFERING OF IT HAVING BEEN THE PASSOVER LAMB OF GOD, the Jews did not eat it-- Christ ate it BEING the Passover of Yahweh SUFFERING BEING the Culmination of Law and Prophesy and BEING the very End of all the OT feasts.

So the Seder ever since Jesus' Last Passover Suffering of Yahweh "AT THE TABLE" of "the Lord's Supper in the Night He was betrayed" "according to the Scriptures" "on the first day they KILLED the passover the very first day they REMOVED leaven", is become a purely Jewish feast that includes reading, drinking wine, telling stories, eating special foods, singing, and other Jewish passover traditions. Not the Christian and NEW, "Lord's Supper".
...???
Have I said that you said that 'it' did anything, chaplain...?
 

Nancy

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Lucky you if that is the right term. The wine would have been wasted on me as a couple of glasses and I am gone.

Lol-I do not recall anybody "drunk" but, I don't know if they continued after I left or not!
 
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FHII

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The verse you quoted was directed to the priests under the Old Covenant. It does not apply to believers under the New Covenant. Unless you know how to exegete scripture you would not be aware of this.
I am fully aware of the context of this verse without you trying to inform me, but thanks for caring. My point is that you said "timing" is not mentioned in the NT, but it is.

This thread isn't about tithing, so I will let it go for now.
 

CoreIssue

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Some good comments except his body was not broken. It is not in the original.

1 Corinthians 11:23-24 New International Version (NIV)
23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.”
 
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farouk

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I like what you said apart from your last sentence. If the last supper, celebrated once a year, is the Lord's supper, celebrated every week or as is the case with Roman Catholics, every day, who don't we celebrate it once a year? Not logical.
Acts 20 says the early believers met to break bread on the first day of the week.