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Taken

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The above post is totally disingenuous and full of pretense.

Thanks for sharing your respect and acknowledgment of my right to ask others questions of their claims.

You completely ignored the fact that defending the Gospel is easily deduced from Scripture,

No. I did not ignore what you said. I disagreed with what you said.

as I provided ample proof.

You provided your understanding, which I disagreed with.

To top that off you pretend that is not the issue being discussed at all. Show respect to others, others are not as "dumb" as you think they are, and your posts are readily dismantled.

Thanks for your Lesson on respect. LOL

And BTW, aside from your title of "preacher" do you have a title you use for "knowing what people think, without them saying so"?

Glory to God,
Taken
 
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GerhardEbersoehn

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Christ is NOT the shadow. Therefore, when I wrote, "... causing the shadow to cease.", I meant exactly that; the shadow ceases, but the reality does not. We continue living under the reality. Please don't twist my words.

A
I did a little twisting... your words, no Scripture though. Therefore you should not twist my words by taking them out of context.
I wrote more than the one word 'shadow'; I wrote a (rather complex), sentence, <The shadow was OT Scripture, the shadow of Christ who is the shadow being fulfilled in Him, "Christ the Reality" : of the shadow! So what you say is Christ shall be caused to cease.> Underline, <The shadow was OT Scripture, the shadow of Christ who is the shadow being fulfilled in Him, "Christ the Reality" : of the shadow! So what you say is Christ shall be caused to cease.>

So, what you are again, saying in this post, is nothing than confirmation of what you have done before,...

This is totally untrue. Every feast has an ongoing or future fulfillment. Unleavened Bread is ongoing as we are to get rid of leaven daily. Pentecost has been partially fulfilled via the former rain leading to the fulfillment of one of the two wave loaves offered on that day. The latter rain is yet to come on a future Pentecost fulfilling the second wave loaf. The Day of Trumpets has not been fulfilled at all. The Day of Atonement has a future fulfillment in the anti-typical Jubilee trumpet being blown to signal the resurrection and freedom for the captives of death. Tabernacles has not been fulfilled at all as you said. No shadow can cease until the reality has come. They all point to unfulfilled aspects of the plan of salvation.
The weekly Sabbath also had sacrificial requirements that needed to be carried out at the temple (Numbers 28:9-10). You cannot apply your no temple argument against the feasts and not against the Sabbath.
As for the feast of tabernacles being meaningless to Gentiles, I am a Gentile and it has tremendous meaning for me. Why? Because I know what it is all about whereas the majority of Gentile believers are ignorant of it because their church leaders are ignorant of it and don't teach about it. Of course it will be meaningless to the ignorant.

B
..., appeal for the cessation of CHRIST who is the shadow FULFILLED. But no, say you, whilst Christ is the shadow fulfilled, the shadow continues.
Sorry the shadow does not continue!
...We continue living under the reality.
Every feast has an ongoing or future fulfillment.
...the feast of tabernacles being meaningless to Gentiles, I am a Gentile and it has tremendous meaning for me.
...Unleavened Bread is ongoing ... daily.
...Pentecost has been partially fulfilled ... leading to the fulfillment
...The latter rain is yet to come
...The Day of Trumpets has not been fulfilled at all.

...what it is all about ...

...We continue living under the reality.

C
There you are, your words in their straight, un-twisted TWISTED MEANING.

Don't try to bluff me.
 
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gadar perets

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A
I did a little twisting... your words, no Scripture though. Therefore you should not twist my words by taking them out of context.
I wrote more than the one word 'shadow'; I wrote a (rather complex), sentence, <The shadow was OT Scripture, the shadow of Christ who is the shadow being fulfilled in Him, "Christ the Reality" : of the shadow! So what you say is Christ shall be caused to cease.> Underline, <The shadow was OT Scripture, the shadow of Christ who is the shadow being fulfilled in Him, "Christ the Reality" : of the shadow! So what you say is Christ shall be caused to cease.>

So, what you are again, saying in this post, is nothing than confirmation of what you have done before,...
Learn to write clearly so people can understand you.

..., appeal for the cessation of CHRIST who is the shadow FULFILLED. But no, say you, whilst Christ is the shadow fulfilled, the shadow continues.
Sorry the shadow does not continue!

Unfulfilled shadows continue whether you believe it or not.

There you are, your words in their straight, un-twisted TWISTED MEANING.

Don't try to bluff me.
"...We continue living under the reality" are indeed straight forward words. When the reality comes, we live under it. I thought even you believed that. Or is it that you just like to argue?
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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"...We continue living under the reality" are indeed straight forward words. When the reality comes, we live under it. I thought even you believed that. Or is it that you just like to argue?

Definitely I must be mistaken, the twisted is not your words or ideas. It's where the ideas brood out that's twisted.
 
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B

brakelite

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Curious, that a great deal in this study refutes much of your own beliefs. I didn't know you were a preterist and accepted what today is basically preferred Catholic teaching. And while I find some of the information interesting, particularly the history of Antiochus and how some would see that as Biblically fulfilled prophecy, there are also many holes in the writer's arguments. Adventist scholars have studied these things longer than you or anyone else...not to validate preconceived opinions, or to simply refute opposition, which is easy to do if you pick and choose your own agenda, but to honestly understand the prophecies.
Daniel 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

There are however a total of six horns that grow out of the he-goat , and it is to the 6th that we will now focus our attention.
This ‘little horn’ was to exceed the greatness of all the preceding horns. Media/Persia “became great” (Daniel 8:4); The he-goat itself was to wax “very great”, (Daniel 8:8), but this little horn was to grow and become “exceeding great”.( Daniel 8:9). It is claimed by many, in fact it has almost become standard belief in modern Christian thought, that Antiochus Epiphanes is represented by this little horn. This is based solely on his persecution of the Jews and the desecration of the temple, as is presumed to have taken place upon a reading of the ensuing verses. The problem however is that Antiochus does not meet the requirements of any other specific in the prophecy. (Some refer to him as being the fulfilment of the little horn that grows out of the fourth beast in Daniel 7 also.)
This is particularly popular with the preterist position, but to insist upon this understanding is to wrest the scripture from it’s historical setting, for an important point to note is that the 4th beast (in the form of the horn which grows out of it...Roman beast therefore Roman horn) reaches to the end of time, and is destroyed at the second coming. The view that Antiochus is the little horn restricts the entire book of Daniel to the period of time before Christianity was established.

Let me in detail give my reasons why I believe Antiochus cannot be the little horn of Daniel 7.
a. Antiochus does not rise after 10 kings. He was the 8th king in the Syrian line of Seleucid kings. Besides, the prophecy calls for 10 kingdoms to exist contemporaneously, not successively.
b. Antiochus belonged to the 3rd empire (Greece) in actual historical sequence from Daniel’s time.
c. He was not ‘diverse’ from any other king.
d. He did not ‘pluck up’ 3 other kings.
e. He was not ‘stouter’ than his fellows. His father was known as Antiochus the Great, not Epiphanes.
f. He did not prevail until the end of time, the judgment.
g. The kingdom following was Rome, not the kingdom of the saints.

Reasons why Antiochus cannot be the little horn of Daniel 8.
a. Antiochus was not a horn in his own right. He was of the Seleucid line therefore was a part (and a relatively minor part) of one of the four.
b. He did not wax exceeding great. In fact his father was greater, but neither was as great as even Babylon or Media Persia, certainly no greater than Alexander. Yet the prophecy demands that the little horn be greater than any empire before it.
c. He does not fit the time periods. According to Maccabees 1:54,59, and 4:52 Antiochus suppressed the sacrifices exactly 3 years. This fits neither the 1260 days , (times time and half a time,) nor the 2300 days (evenings and mornings of Daniel 8:14), nor even 1150 days (3 years 2 months and ten days) if you half the 2300 days. These figures do not compliment one another NOR do they meet the reign of Antiochus.
d. The 2300 days is prophetic. Using the day/year principle established elsewhere as being the standard and norm for interpreting prophetic time periods, it is a literal 2300 years.

Therefore,
And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

can only refer to the empire of Rome, and thus is the Daniel 8 parallel to not just the 4th beast of Daniel 7…
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

… but also the iron legs of the statue of Daniel 2. See how each prophecy repeats and enlarges upon the preceding prophecy?

The dragon beast represents the Roman empire (168 B. C. – 476 A. D.). This empire came to be known as the “iron monarchy of Rome” (Edward Gibbon, The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, vol. 4, p. 161). The ten horns represent the ten kingdoms into which the Roman Empire was divided when it fell apart. These ten kingdoms, according to Edward
Gibbon, were: The Alemanni, the Franks, the Burgundians, the Vandals, the Suevi, the Visigoths, the Saxons, the Ostrogoths, the Lombards and the Heruli (see, M. H. Brown, The Sure Word of Prophecy, pp. 54, 55).
“The historian Machiavel, without the slightest reference to this prophecy, gives the following list of the nations which occupied the territory of the Western Empire at the time of the fall of Romulus Augustulus [476 A. D], the last emperor of Rome: The Lombards, the Franks, the Burgundians, the Ostrogoths, the Visigoths, the Vandals, the Heruli, the Sueves, the Huns, and
the Saxons: ten in all.” (H. Grattan Guinness, The Divine Program of the World’s History, p. 318).
Already in the fourth century, Jerome had spoken of the fragmentation of the Roman Empire in the following terms:
“Moreover the fourth kingdom, which plainly pertains to the Romans, is the iron which breaks in pieces and subdues all things. But its feet and toes are partly of iron and partly of clay, which at this time [note that Jerome was living when this was happening] is most plainly attested. For just as in its beginning nothing was stronger and more unyielding than the Roman Empire, so at the end of its affairs nothing is weaker.” (Jerome, Commentary on Daniel, comments on 2:40, column 504). In the days when Jerome lived, the Roman Empire was coming apart. The barbarian tribes from the north had descended upon the empire with a vengeance and broke it up into the nations which today constitute western Europe.

Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.




Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.


Remember, that the little horn in Daniel 8:9 is different from the little horn of Daniel 7:8. The one in Daniel 8:9 represents the empire of pagan Rome. It is the parallel symbol of the dragon beast with the ten horns and iron teeth that rises from the sea. However, in Daniel 8:10 can be seen a change in the practice of the little horn from being one that “waxed exceeding great” on a horizontal plane to one that then “waxed great” on a vertical plane. Rome at first operated as a secular pagan entity only. But here we see a change in her nature to a religious entity in that she began to attack the things of God and spiritual truths that pertain to heaven.
The little horn of Daniel 7:8, which grows out of the Roman empire amongst the former ten horns and uproots 3 of them, is also an entity which has aspirations of a more heavenly nature.

Daniel 7:9 ¶ I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.


We see here that the duration of this little horn does not end until the judgment. So it endures right up to the second coming, therefore is with us today.
 
B

brakelite

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As for the investigative judgement, and 1844, there is screeds of Adventist authors who have written entire books devoted to this topic. I would suggest that if anyone is genuinely interested in the Adventist position regarding what is certainly unique to Adventism, then read those books, not books and studies designed to criticise them. No-one goes to the Bible in order to understand Islam. Nor vice versa. I could quote criticisms all day from atheists regarding Christianity. Would that paint a realistic picture of Christian thought and belief? Of course not. No more so than enemies of Adventism painting an accurate picture of our beliefs.
Ask the horse what it eats. Not the whip.
 

CoreIssue

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Curious, that a great deal in this study refutes much of your own beliefs. I didn't know you were a preterist and accepted what today is basically preferred Catholic teaching. And while I find some of the information interesting, particularly the history of Antiochus and how some would see that as Biblically fulfilled prophecy, there are also many holes in the writer's arguments. Adventist scholars have studied these things longer than you or anyone else...not to validate preconceived opinions, or to simply refute opposition, which is easy to do if you pick and choose your own agenda, but to honestly understand the prophecies.
Daniel 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.


There are however a total of six horns that grow out of the he-goat , and it is to the 6th that we will now focus our attention.
This ‘little horn’ was to exceed the greatness of all the preceding horns. Media/Persia “became great” (Daniel 8:4); The he-goat itself was to wax “very great”, (Daniel 8:8), but this little horn was to grow and become “exceeding great”.( Daniel 8:9). It is claimed by many, in fact it has almost become standard belief in modern Christian thought, that Antiochus Epiphanes is represented by this little horn. This is based solely on his persecution of the Jews and the desecration of the temple, as is presumed to have taken place upon a reading of the ensuing verses. The problem however is that Antiochus does not meet the requirements of any other specific in the prophecy. (Some refer to him as being the fulfilment of the little horn that grows out of the fourth beast in Daniel 7 also.)
This is particularly popular with the preterist position, but to insist upon this understanding is to wrest the scripture from it’s historical setting, for an important point to note is that the 4th beast (in the form of the horn which grows out of it...Roman beast therefore Roman horn) reaches to the end of time, and is destroyed at the second coming. The view that Antiochus is the little horn restricts the entire book of Daniel to the period of time before Christianity was established.

Let me in detail give my reasons why I believe Antiochus cannot be the little horn of Daniel 7.
a. Antiochus does not rise after 10 kings. He was the 8th king in the Syrian line of Seleucid kings. Besides, the prophecy calls for 10 kingdoms to exist contemporaneously, not successively.
b. Antiochus belonged to the 3rd empire (Greece) in actual historical sequence from Daniel’s time.
c. He was not ‘diverse’ from any other king.
d. He did not ‘pluck up’ 3 other kings.
e. He was not ‘stouter’ than his fellows. His father was known as Antiochus the Great, not Epiphanes.
f. He did not prevail until the end of time, the judgment.
g. The kingdom following was Rome, not the kingdom of the saints.

Reasons why Antiochus cannot be the little horn of Daniel 8.
a. Antiochus was not a horn in his own right. He was of the Seleucid line therefore was a part (and a relatively minor part) of one of the four.
b. He did not wax exceeding great. In fact his father was greater, but neither was as great as even Babylon or Media Persia, certainly no greater than Alexander. Yet the prophecy demands that the little horn be greater than any empire before it.
c. He does not fit the time periods. According to Maccabees 1:54,59, and 4:52 Antiochus suppressed the sacrifices exactly 3 years. This fits neither the 1260 days , (times time and half a time,) nor the 2300 days (evenings and mornings of Daniel 8:14), nor even 1150 days (3 years 2 months and ten days) if you half the 2300 days. These figures do not compliment one another NOR do they meet the reign of Antiochus.
d. The 2300 days is prophetic. Using the day/year principle established elsewhere as being the standard and norm for interpreting prophetic time periods, it is a literal 2300 years.

Therefore,
And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

can only refer to the empire of Rome, and thus is the Daniel 8 parallel to not just the 4th beast of Daniel 7…
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

… but also the iron legs of the statue of Daniel 2. See how each prophecy repeats and enlarges upon the preceding prophecy?

The dragon beast represents the Roman empire (168 B. C. – 476 A. D.). This empire came to be known as the “iron monarchy of Rome” (Edward Gibbon, The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, vol. 4, p. 161). The ten horns represent the ten kingdoms into which the Roman Empire was divided when it fell apart. These ten kingdoms, according to Edward
Gibbon, were: The Alemanni, the Franks, the Burgundians, the Vandals, the Suevi, the Visigoths, the Saxons, the Ostrogoths, the Lombards and the Heruli (see, M. H. Brown, The Sure Word of Prophecy, pp. 54, 55).
“The historian Machiavel, without the slightest reference to this prophecy, gives the following list of the nations which occupied the territory of the Western Empire at the time of the fall of Romulus Augustulus [476 A. D], the last emperor of Rome: The Lombards, the Franks, the Burgundians, the Ostrogoths, the Visigoths, the Vandals, the Heruli, the Sueves, the Huns, and
the Saxons: ten in all.” (H. Grattan Guinness, The Divine Program of the World’s History, p. 318).
Already in the fourth century, Jerome had spoken of the fragmentation of the Roman Empire in the following terms:
“Moreover the fourth kingdom, which plainly pertains to the Romans, is the iron which breaks in pieces and subdues all things. But its feet and toes are partly of iron and partly of clay, which at this time [note that Jerome was living when this was happening] is most plainly attested. For just as in its beginning nothing was stronger and more unyielding than the Roman Empire, so at the end of its affairs nothing is weaker.” (Jerome, Commentary on Daniel, comments on 2:40, column 504). In the days when Jerome lived, the Roman Empire was coming apart. The barbarian tribes from the north had descended upon the empire with a vengeance and broke it up into the nations which today constitute western Europe.

Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.




Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.


Remember, that the little horn in Daniel 8:9 is different from the little horn of Daniel 7:8. The one in Daniel 8:9 represents the empire of pagan Rome. It is the parallel symbol of the dragon beast with the ten horns and iron teeth that rises from the sea. However, in Daniel 8:10 can be seen a change in the practice of the little horn from being one that “waxed exceeding great” on a horizontal plane to one that then “waxed great” on a vertical plane. Rome at first operated as a secular pagan entity only. But here we see a change in her nature to a religious entity in that she began to attack the things of God and spiritual truths that pertain to heaven.
The little horn of Daniel 7:8, which grows out of the Roman empire amongst the former ten horns and uproots 3 of them, is also an entity which has aspirations of a more heavenly nature.

Daniel 7:9 ¶ I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.


We see here that the duration of this little horn does not end until the judgment. So it endures right up to the second coming, therefore is with us today.
I am a pre-tribulation and the 2300 year doctrine is an SDA invention.
 

JesusFan1

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As for the investigative judgement, and 1844, there is screeds of Adventist authors who have written entire books devoted to this topic. I would suggest that if anyone is genuinely interested in the Adventist position regarding what is certainly unique to Adventism, then read those books, not books and studies designed to criticise them. No-one goes to the Bible in order to understand Islam. Nor vice versa. I could quote criticisms all day from atheists regarding Christianity. Would that paint a realistic picture of Christian thought and belief? Of course not. No more so than enemies of Adventism painting an accurate picture of our beliefs.
Ask the horse what it eats. Not the whip.
the Investigative Judgement cannot be supported by the Bible, as some of the Sda best and brightest minds tried for 5 years, such as Desmond Ford tried , and could never find it in the Bible!
 

JesusFan1

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As for the investigative judgement, and 1844, there is screeds of Adventist authors who have written entire books devoted to this topic. I would suggest that if anyone is genuinely interested in the Adventist position regarding what is certainly unique to Adventism, then read those books, not books and studies designed to criticise them. No-one goes to the Bible in order to understand Islam. Nor vice versa. I could quote criticisms all day from atheists regarding Christianity. Would that paint a realistic picture of Christian thought and belief? Of course not. No more so than enemies of Adventism painting an accurate picture of our beliefs.
Ask the horse what it eats. Not the whip.
Read the work from Desmond Ford in regards to the Investigative Judgement heresy, as he should beyond a doubt not derived from the scriptures!
 

Brakelite

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Read the work from Desmond Ford in regards to the Investigative Judgement heresy, as he should beyond a doubt not derived from the scriptures!
I can speak for Brakelite with a certain amount of authority, and can tell you that Brakelite found it in the Bible and he doesn't know why Desmond Ford couldn't.
 
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marksman

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This Vet learned long time ago all that happens when you tried to be nice to an enemy is they defeat you.

Cults are enemies of Christianity.
Christianity is the enemy of Cults. I know because I unknowingly joined two.
 

marksman

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In your study, you should have come across some FACTS.

Mission Statement of the Seventh-day Adventist Church
...source; Adventist.org


Our Mission Make disciples of Jesus Christ ...

Glory to God,
Taken
As I see it and I may be wrong but I don't think so, the angst about the 7th Day Adventists is mainly due to the fact that they meet on Saturday.

I don't have a problem with this because the NTC met on the sabbath Saturday which means the traditional church has to justify not meeting on the Saturday Sabbath. They have tried but usually, they use incorrect interpretations of scripture to do this. Which means of course they are not open to truth and that denominational values have more power than what the scripture says. I have spoken to denominational leaders abut this and they admit to the fact but they always say "Yes but..." in other words, we know that is true but we have chosen to ignore it.

As for the SDA mission statements, they have one of the best that I have seen regarding abortion. A lot of movements in the church ignore it altogether.
 
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Taken

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As I see it and I may be wrong but I don't think so, the angst about the 7th Day Adventists is mainly due to the fact that they meet on Saturday.

I don't have a problem with this because the NTC met on the sabbath Saturday which means the traditional church has to justify not meeting on the Saturday Sabbath. They have tried but usually, they use incorrect interpretations of scripture to do this. Which means of course they are not open to truth and that denominational values have more power than what the scripture says. I have spoken to denominational leaders abut this and they admit to the fact but they always say "Yes but..." in other words, we know that is true but we have chosen to ignore it.

As for the SDA mission statements, they have one of the best that I have seen regarding abortion. A lot of movements in the church ignore it altogether.

I was neither agreeing or disagreeing with SDA gathering day practice.

I was simply referencing the SDA Mission Statement that it speak for itself what they Believe.

Glory to God,
Taken