The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity

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Waiting on him

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Waiting on him

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If your gonna perform it, do it to the letter. This means if your children are disobedient(cursing in your house) then take them outside and heap stones on top of their bodies until they die.
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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I had posted in reply to Phoneman's post #16.
What is it you say I have no idea about?
What 2 words have I combined?
antinomian
noun
an·ti·no·mi·an | \ ˌan-ti-ˈnō-mē-ən \
Definition of antinomian
1: one who holds that under the gospel dispensation of grace (see GRACE entry 1sense 1a) the moral law is of no use or obligation because faith alone is necessary to salvation
2: one who rejects a socially established morality
Thanks for clarifying Nancy...the word Antinomian suffices for what you were getting at.
I am not sure antinomianist is a word.
 

farouk

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My Lord is full of pity full of mercy!
Psalm 118:

O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: because his mercy endureth for ever.

2 Let Israel now say, that his mercy endureth for ever.

3 Let the house of Aaron now say, that his mercy endureth for ever.

4 Let them now that fear the LORD say, that his mercy endureth for ever.

5 I called upon the LORD in distress: the LORD answered me, and set me in a large place.

6 The LORD is on my side; I will not fear: what can man do unto me?

7 The LORD taketh my part with them that help me: therefore shall I see my desire upon them that hate me.

8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

9 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes.

10 All nations compassed me about: but in the name of the LORD will I destroy them.

11 They compassed me about; yea, they compassed me about: but in the name of the LORD I will destroy them.

12 They compassed me about like bees; they are quenched as the fire of thorns: for in the name of the LORD I will destroy them.

13 Thou hast thrust sore at me that I might fall: but the LORD helped me.

14 The LORD is my strength and song, and is become my salvation.

15 The voice of rejoicing and salvation is in the tabernacles of the righteous: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly.

16 The right hand of the LORD is exalted: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly.

17 I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD.

18 The LORD hath chastened me sore: but he hath not given me over unto death.

19 Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the LORD:

20 This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter.

21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation.

22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.

23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.

24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.

25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.

26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

27 God is the LORD, which hath shewed us light: bind the sacrifice with cords, even unto the horns of the altar.

28 Thou art my God, and I will praise thee: thou art my God, I will exalt thee.

29 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.
 

Waiting on him

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Psalm 118:

O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: because his mercy endureth for ever.

2 Let Israel now say, that his mercy endureth for ever.

3 Let the house of Aaron now say, that his mercy endureth for ever.

4 Let them now that fear the LORD say, that his mercy endureth for ever.

5 I called upon the LORD in distress: the LORD answered me, and set me in a large place.

6 The LORD is on my side; I will not fear: what can man do unto me?

7 The LORD taketh my part with them that help me: therefore shall I see my desire upon them that hate me.

8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

9 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes.

10 All nations compassed me about: but in the name of the LORD will I destroy them.

11 They compassed me about; yea, they compassed me about: but in the name of the LORD I will destroy them.

12 They compassed me about like bees; they are quenched as the fire of thorns: for in the name of the LORD I will destroy them.

13 Thou hast thrust sore at me that I might fall: but the LORD helped me.

14 The LORD is my strength and song, and is become my salvation.

15 The voice of rejoicing and salvation is in the tabernacles of the righteous: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly.

16 The right hand of the LORD is exalted: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly.

17 I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD.

18 The LORD hath chastened me sore: but he hath not given me over unto death.

19 Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the LORD:

20 This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter.

21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation.

22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.

23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.

24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.

25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.

26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

27 God is the LORD, which hath shewed us light: bind the sacrifice with cords, even unto the horns of the altar.

28 Thou art my God, and I will praise thee: thou art my God, I will exalt thee.

29 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.
This is Jesus praying to the Lord.
 

SovereignGrace

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Calvinism is a theological “safe-space” where church goers flee to escape from their responsibility to “choose you this day whom ye will serve.”

Joshua 24:15 was addressed to the Jews, not the Jebusites, Hittites, Hivites, Assyrians, Syrians, Egyptians, Philistines, Moabites, et al.
 
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SovereignGrace

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If Christ had not laid aside His divinity and overcome sin in the strength of His God, Satan would have the ultimate evidence to condemn God as unjust for demanding man attain the same perfection Calvinism’s “divinely-advantaged” Jesus attained.

Come now, let us reason together - Why would He have to “learn obedience” if obedience for Him was already as involuntary a function as His breathing or heartbeat?

He did NOT lay aside His divinity. He was just as much God in the flesh for those 33.5 years as He was prior to and after His incarnation.
 
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Enoch111

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Sorry that’s a miss . May I suggest reading up on the subject. I suggest a Reformed site or book that use the scriptures side by side with what Reformed folks believe.
No. That is not a miss. I have read up on the subject in the most authoritative presentation of Reformed Theology: The Westminster Confession of Faith. It says exactly the same thing, just worded differently (and more of a 17th century flavor). I could quote you chapter and verse but it won't make any difference. Calvinists always come up with "But you don't understand". The problem is that the Scriptures quoted to support some of those beliefs are not really so. And to refute everything would take a volume.
 

Laish

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No. That is not a miss. I have read up on the subject in the most authoritative presentation of Reformed Theology: The Westminster Confession of Faith. It says exactly the same thing, just worded differently (and more of a 17th century flavor). I could quote you chapter and verse but it won't make any difference. Calvinists always come up with "But you don't understand". The problem is that the Scriptures quoted to support some of those beliefs are not really so. And to refute everything would take a volume.

You do know that Westminster is a confession and not a systematic theology or a explanation of Reformed beliefs right ?
It’s a statement of belief without argument . It nowhere explains the subject only what is believed and a brief quote of scripture. It’s like a signpost using it for any other reason is not it’s intended purpose
It’s not used to study sir Using it to understand what what Reformed theology is , well it’s like using a unicycle to cross the Atlantic.
Blessings
Bill
 
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friend of

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Obviously, He asks us to "reason together" with Him so that we can make an informed choice about the crucial issue He so desperately wants us to consider: "sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness". The choice to accept Jesus as Savior is not "works", but a thought.

I like the scripture Isaiah 43:26 particularly. But I believe you are correct. Choosing to believe is not "works" to God, no matter how much Calvinists want to make it out to be. Romans 4:3-5 makes a clear distinction that having Faith is not considered a work.
 

Taken

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Of course everyone is against God until they hear the Gospel, repent, and believe of the Lord Jesus Christ. Only then are they saved.

Why did you take a partial quote of what I said to misrepresent it.

I didn't.
I quoted a portion of what you said, and asked you specifically about that portion.

ASKING you is NOT MISREPRESENTING what you SAID...

IT IS ASKING YOU "ABOUT" what you said, for YOUR OWN CLARIFICATION..

Here is the complete post:"No one is denying this. God saves each and every sinner from eternal Hell entirely by His grace, and only because of the finished work of Christ, not for any goodness in anyone.That does not in any way diminish the need to obey the Gospel.Please read and study Romans 10 in its entirety."

Thanks for repeating your entire comment that was NOT what I was "asking" ABOUT.

The point under discussion was the grace of God. And those who are saved are all saved by the grace of God,

THAT would have been A SUFFICIENT
Answer to my QUESTION.
THAT clarifies "those who are saved".


but as stated above
That does not in any way diminish the need to obey the Gospel.

I had no question about that point, nor was there a need to repeat what I did not ask you about.

Total Depravity turns everything on its head, and claims that because no one can respond to, or obey, the Gospel, they are FIRST regenerated, then believe, and then they are saved. And that is TOTALLY ABSURD and contrary to the Bible. So if that is your belief, it is unbiblical and you should give it up.

What are you babbling about then calling ABSURD, then wonding if that is my Belief??

You will know MY BELIEF, when I SAY IT, "not you".

Conversations go on and on.
I don't read everything you post.

I asked you to elaborate on a comment you made.

It would have been sufficient for you to respond....you were expressly speaking of "ALL" in the context of "ALL" who were saved.

Repeating your post, didn't identify the "ALL" the first time, or when you repeated it.

And your going off on a tangent of "depravity", and obedience, and the Gospel, then making some implication that what you were babbling about was ANYTHING I had commented about is Ridiculous.
And futher Ridiculous for you to say "IF" those were my beliefs......well it's ABSURD.

Maybe you are UNAWARE, there are PLENTY of people who BELIEVE...."the ENTIRETY" of "ALL" PEOPLE WILL BE "SAVED"...

I requested YOU to CLARIFY your own SPECIFIC WORDS...

Which ONLY Required a SIMPLE answer, that YOU Finally got around to...
after...
Making a false accusation...
Then...
Clarifying
Then...
introducing some Off point babbling
Then...
Announcing IF I believed YOUR off point babbling...
Then...
That would be ABSURD of me.

Good Grief....no need to swing the gavel on every post...not everyone here is your enemy; You should have figured out who's who by now.

Glory to God,
Taken
 
D

Dave L

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According to your misguided belief, totally depraved means total inability to respond to Christ, respond to the Gospel or do any good deed.

According to Scripture though, the "totally depraved" thief (malefactor could mean much more, an out and out criminal, one who does harm or evil to others) on the cross repented while crucified, and then believed wholeheartedly on the Lord Jesus Christ, including the belief that He would have a LITERAL KINGDOM on earth (unlike you).
You think a response to Christ saves. = salvation by works. It is God who must first save us before we can respond... in love for him.
 

Phoneman777

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Why do you think people are not totally depraved when scripture says we are born speaking lies? And there's not one who does good and seeks after righteousness? And then asks how can a corrupt tree produce good fruit?
Of course we're totally depraved. "The whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint." I disagree with the idea that God only makes house calls to a select few and that He barges in against their wish to be treated or not.

"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear My voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with Me." - Revelation 3:20 KJV
 
D

Dave L

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Of course we're totally depraved. "The whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint." I disagree with the idea that God only makes house calls to a select few and that He barges in against their wish to be treated or not.

"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear My voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with Me." - Revelation 3:20 KJV
If you look at the big picture, it's not about us. It's about God's glory. And we can only know God if sin exists. Apart from which there is no righteousness, justice, mercy, wrath, sovereignty, and all that God reveals himself to be. Had he not mercifully stood in the place of some on the cross, none would be saved.