The Righte Prayer Partner

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Berserk

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Sometimes people aren't healed because the right faith-filled person did not pray for the answer to the need in question. This thread will explore several relevant testimonies and then reflect on (a) the biblical basis for this reality and (b) what this means for the church's ministry of prayer support.

(1) Anglican mystic, Agnes Sanford, has written several books on prayer and spirituality. In her classic, "The Healing Light," she tells the story of her dying baby grandson. Doctors had doomed the baby to imminent death. She was caring for the boy and organized prayer vigils to pray for healing--to no effect. She prayed constantly for healing without success. Then one day, a young first-year Bible school student dropped by, saying, "I heard you have a dying baby here and I've come to pray for his healing." Agnes said she felt indignant at his presumption. Didn't he realize that she was an expert on prayer and that the room was prayer-saturated? The arrogance of this inexperienced young man! But she couldn't bring herself to deny his request; so she grudgingly complied. She watched as he picked up the baby with joy radiating from his face as he lovingly prayed for the boy's recovery. She saw the baby gloriously healed before her very eyes, and was properly humbled by the realization that this young man was the right person at that time to serve as God's instrument of healing.

She was too ego-invested and too agitated to be God's instrument of healing in this case, and the Bible school student's calm divinely instilled confidence was exactly what God needed to channel full healing. Such anecdotes can be multiplied.
 
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Berserk

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(2) Dave Q. is in our weekly small prayer group, He suffered from a massive blood clot that extended from his foot to his groin area. Doctors expressed the hope that this clot would eventually calcify, removing the risk to his heart. Dave and his wife Patty's prayers did nothing to change his condition. The clot was very painful when Dave did any extensive walking and the doctor advised him not to go out much. But one day, Dave defied that order and took his wife to dine at Mavericks, a restaurant I can see from my residence. An unknown young couple approached their table, asking, "I hope you don't mind my asking, but do you have a serious physical condition that needs prayer?" Dave was initially taken aback at this intrusion, especially with other customers overhearing the question. Though a tad embarrassed, he told them about the massive clot. They nodded relief and felt that their "word of knowledge" they had clairvoyantly received was confirmed. Then the couple asked if Dave wanted prayer for his condition. He consented , expecting to pray quietly, but he was again taken aback, when they prayed loudly for his healing.

I did some detective work and later learned that this couple were new charismatic believers. Mark, the husband, had recently experienced "the baptism of the Holy Spirit," had spoken in tongues, and was eager to explore his new spiritual gifts. I later had dinner with them in Maverick's and asked to hear about Dave's healing from their perspective.

Subsequent x-rays confirmed that Dave was completely healed. Dave realizes he would never have been healed unless God brought the right prayer partners. Nor would he have been healed if his pride prompted him to decline their request to pray for him. So this healing provides a great parallel to Agnes's dilemma at the presumptuous Bible school student's request.

The faith lessons? (1) As in Agnes's case, true humility is a great asset to effective faith. (2) Real faith takes risks, risks I would typically lack the confidence to take. I would have been more polite and prayed quietly--and my prayer would have had no effect. I would have been hedging my bets to prevent myself from looking really bad! I later learned that gifted faith healers do not pray softly in situations like that, because they want the healings to serve as a witness to God's power. (3) The younger generation is jumping out of the windows of mainline churches, because these churches are "holding to the outward form of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid them (2 Timothy 3:5)!" Thus, Paul says of his rivals: "I will find out not the talk of these arrogant people, but their power. For the kingdom of God depends not on talk, but on power. (1 Corinthians 4:19-

(3) I'm posting my next example because the family involved hunted me down and called me last week. I was embarrassed because they were good friends and I hadn't contacted them in over 10 years after moving form Buffalo, NY, to northeastern Washington state. I'm puzzled by how the family was able to track me down and was humbled and delighted to hear from them. Karen, the mother of Austin in the testimony described below , wanted me to know that our discussions on the gifts of the Holy Spirit and the paranormal long ago had born fruit because she was now a Charismatic Christian. We will now be e-mailing each other on a regular basis.

When I was a pastor in Buffalo, NY Austin was a quiet teenager who avoided my many discussions on paranormal incidents with his parents. What we didn't know was that Austin had become addicted to opioids. One day, he accepted his friends' dare to go see the movie Paranormal. Austin was not the horror movie type and it frightened him badly. Soon thereafter, he began to see lights in his closet in his blackened room. He tried to ignore this, but soon psychokinetic experiences began to terrorize him, e.g. his blankets would suddenly be ripped off his bed by an unseen hand. Finally, in desperation he confessed all this to his parents. They invited 2 charismatic Christians who supposedly specialized in deliverance ministry to bless their house and exorcise any demonic presence. This had no effect and the paranormal manifestations continued relentlessly. Then in desperation, the parents called the Catholic church. This step was hard for them because they were not pro-Catholic by any means. The bishop sent a gentle Nigerian priest who, with no histrionics, quietly took command of the nasty spirit presence and successfully exorcised the house. There were no more paranormal manifestations. This Nigerian apparently had had prior experience with African witch doctors (shamans). I learned about this and met Austin's baby son, when I was asked to return to Buffalo to perform the wedding ceremony for Austin's brother. I like to share this story with anti-Catholic charismatics who seem to think they have a monopoly on deliverance ministry. Again, the right prayer partner proved decisive.

In my 12 years as a theology professor at a Catholic university, I had a colleague who was a priest exorcist and had been a good friend of Father Bawdern, the priest who had performed the exorcism in the famous paranormal that inspired the horror movie, "The Exorcist." This priest knew the paranormal details of this afmous exorcism. As in my friends' case, in that famous exoicism a Protestant minister had attempted and failed to perform the exorcism and was injured by the boy's superhuman strength in the attempt. And that's why Father Bowdern was summoned and proved to be the right choice.

I am known around here as a debunker of alleged possession cases, because I have had to deal with the harm done by wannabe exorcists who treat ordinary psychopathology and mental illness as cases of possession. Real possession cases are rare and every step must first be taken to find alternative explanations of the aberrant behavior and phenomena. Still, my family has encountered and dealt with a couple of dramatic possession cases in a convincing way, but only a couple in my lifetime. Again, the right prayer partner was essential.
 
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Berserk

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(4) Jack Deere was an evangelical Presbyterian Old Testament professor at Dallas Seminary and an avowed cessationist. He was an elder in his church. A well educated female member asked the elders for prayer for her clinical depression, but their prayers had no effect. Then a Christian psychiatrist, Dr. John White, was invited to preach at his church. Only after this invitation did the elders learn that Dr. White had become a Charismatic believer. Some elders thought his invitation should be rescinded for this reason, but the c church ultimately decided to let him preach. After his sermon, Dr. White was accosted by the woman who had asked the elders for prayer for her clinical depression. He quietly laid hands on her and rebuked the "spirit of depression" that was harassing her and she was instantly healed! Dr. Deere was disturbed that this Charismatic's prayers had succeed, while the elders' prayers had failed. This led to more a more careful study of God's Word that led to Deere leaving his post as a Dallas Seminary professor and becoming a Charismatic speaker, pastor, and writer. You can read about his spiritual journey in his marvelous book, "Surprised by the Power of the Spirit."
 
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Berserk

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All of your writings and up to is not a Pentecostal you fail as a Christian.

Not an English sentence! Congratulations, you just spoke in tongues!:rolleyes:
Your gibberish seems to ignore the fact that 2 of my 4 cases feature a non-Pentecostal prayer partner and example (3) even features a Catholic exorcist succeeding where 2 Charismatic deliverance ministers failed! So you really must learn to read! But keep speaking in tongues because I think I have the gift of interpreting your ungrammatical gibberish.

btw, I'm United Methodist, not Pentecostal. I haven't spoken in tongues in several decades.
 
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CoreIssue

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Not an English sentence! Congratulations, you just spoke in tongues!:rolleyes:
Your gibberish seems to ignore the fact that 2 of my 4 cases feature a non-Pentecostal prayer partner and example (3) even features a Catholic exorcist succeeding where 2 Charismatic deliverance ministers failed! So you really must learn to read! But keep speaking in tongues because I think I have the gift of interpreting your ungrammatical gibberish.

btw, I'm United Methodist, not Pentecostal. I haven't spoken in tongues in several decades.

UMC - very liberal
 
D

Dave L

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Not an English sentence! Congratulations, you just spoke in tongues!:rolleyes:
Your gibberish seems to ignore the fact that 2 of my 4 cases feature a non-Pentecostal prayer partner and example (3) even features a Catholic exorcist succeeding where 2 Charismatic deliverance ministers failed! So you really must learn to read! But keep speaking in tongues because I think I have the gift of interpreting your ungrammatical gibberish.

btw, I'm United Methodist, not Pentecostal. I haven't spoken in tongues in several decades.
You make prayer to difficult and do not understand how the prayer of faith works. Or how to live in divine health and not need healing.
 

Nancy

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(2) Dave Q. is in our weekly small prayer group, He suffered from a massive blood clot that extended from his foot to his groin area. Doctors expressed the hope that this clot would eventually calcify, removing the risk to his heart. Dave and his wife Patty's prayers did nothing to change his condition. The clot was very painful when Dave did any extensive walking and the doctor advised him not to go out much. But one day, Dave defied that order and took his wife to dine at Mavericks, a restaurant I can see from my residence. An unknown young couple approached their table, asking, "I hope you don't mind my asking, but do you have a serious physical condition that needs prayer?" Dave was initially taken aback at this intrusion, especially with other customers overhearing the question. Though a tad embarrassed, he told them about the massive clot. They nodded relief and felt that their "word of knowledge" they had clairvoyantly received was confirmed. Then the couple asked if Dave wanted prayer for his condition. He consented , expecting to pray quietly, but he was again taken aback, when they prayed loudly for his healing.

I did some detective work and later learned that this couple were new charismatic believers. Mark, the husband, had recently experienced "the baptism of the Holy Spirit," had spoken in tongues, and was eager to explore his new spiritual gifts. I later had dinner with them in Maverick's and asked to hear about Dave's healing from their perspective.

Subsequent x-rays confirmed that Dave was completely healed. Dave realizes he would never have been healed unless God brought the right prayer partners. Nor would he have been healed if his pride prompted him to decline their request to pray for him. So this healing provides a great parallel to Agnes's dilemma at the presumptuous Bible school student's request.

The faith lessons? (1) As in Agnes's case, true humility is a great asset to effective faith. (2) Real faith takes risks, risks I would typically lack the confidence to take. I would have been more polite and prayed quietly--and my prayer would have had no effect. I would have been hedging my bets to prevent myself from looking really bad! I later learned that gifted faith healers do not pray softly in situations like that, because they want the healings to serve as a witness to God's power. (3) The younger generation is jumping out of the windows of mainline churches, because these churches are "holding to the outward form of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid them (2 Timothy 3:5)!" Thus, Paul says of his rivals: "I will find out not the talk of these arrogant people, but their power. For the kingdom of God depends not on talk, but on power. (1 Corinthians 4:19-

(3) I'm posting my next example because the family involved hunted me down and called me last week. I was embarrassed because they were good friends and I hadn't contacted them in over 10 years after moving form Buffalo, NY, to northeastern Washington state. I'm puzzled by how the family was able to track me down and was humbled and delighted to hear from them. Karen, the mother of Austin in the testimony described below , wanted me to know that our discussions on the gifts of the Holy Spirit and the paranormal long ago had born fruit because she was now a Charismatic Christian. We will now be e-mailing each other on a regular basis.

When I was a pastor in Buffalo, NY Austin was a quiet teenager who avoided my many discussions on paranormal incidents with his parents. What we didn't know was that Austin had become addicted to opioids. One day, he accepted his friends' dare to go see the movie Paranormal. Austin was not the horror movie type and it frightened him badly. Soon thereafter, he began to see lights in his closet in his blackened room. He tried to ignore this, but soon psychokinetic experiences began to terrorize him, e.g. his blankets would suddenly be ripped off his bed by an unseen hand. Finally, in desperation he confessed all this to his parents. They invited 2 charismatic Christians who supposedly specialized in deliverance ministry to bless their house and exorcise any demonic presence. This had no effect and the paranormal manifestations continued relentlessly. Then in desperation, the parents called the Catholic church. This step was hard for them because they were not pro-Catholic by any means. The bishop sent a gentle Nigerian priest who, with no histrionics, quietly took command of the nasty spirit presence and successfully exorcised the house. There were no more paranormal manifestations. This Nigerian apparently had had prior experience with African witch doctors (shamans). I learned about this and met Austin's baby son, when I was asked to return to Buffalo to perform the wedding ceremony for Austin's brother. I like to share this story with anti-Catholic charismatics who seem to think they have a monopoly on deliverance ministry. Again, the right prayer partner proved decisive.

In my 12 years as a theology professor at a Catholic university, I had a colleague who was a priest exorcist and had been a good friend of Father Bawdern, the priest who had performed the exorcism in the famous paranormal that inspired the horror movie, "The Exorcist." This priest knew the paranormal details of this afmous exorcism. As in my friends' case, in that famous exoicism a Protestant minister had attempted and failed to perform the exorcism and was injured by the boy's superhuman strength in the attempt. And that's why Father Bowdern was summoned and proved to be the right choice.

I am known around here as a debunker of alleged possession cases, because I have had to deal with the harm done by wannabe exorcists who treat ordinary psychopathology and mental illness as cases of possession. Real possession cases are rare and every step must first be taken to find alternative explanations of the aberrant behavior and phenomena. Still, my family has encountered and dealt with a couple of dramatic possession cases in a convincing way, but only a couple in my lifetime. Again, the right prayer partner was essential.

Good stuff Berserk! May I ask what Church you Pastored at in Buffalo? I live in Buffalo and have my whole life, minus 4 years in the Air Force. My first protestant Church was quite Charismatic. I never saw any healings and, why I left the Church was because the whole congregation would all speak in tongues at the same time, every service and, not a single interpreter. I sure did feel that I did not belong there as, when I became saved, there was no speaking in tongues and oh how I prayed for it! So many years later, I am okay that I do not speak in tongues as, not everybody is given that gift. Though, it would be so awesome to have for prayer alone! ♥
 

Berserk

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Dave L: "You make prayer to difficult and do not understand how the prayer of faith works."
I have conducted a 6-hour workshop on prayer for lay leaders. Have you? Your arrogant presumption is ghastly and your judgmental spirit is a stain on your anti-charismatic piety. How many healing miracles have your experienced through your prayers for others?
btw, the UMC rejected gay marriage and ordination at their special February conference.

@Nancy, I was a theology professor for 12 years at a university near you. I pastored 2 liberal churches in Buffalo not because I agreed with their liberalism, but because I wanted to exercise a conservative evangelical influence there. I remain in regular communication with believers from one of those churches who are now solidly grounded in Charismatic experience and theology.
 
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CoreIssue

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Dave L: "You make prayer to difficult and do not understand how the prayer of faith works."
I have conducted a 6-hour workshop on prayer for lay leaders. Have you? Your arrogant presumption is ghastly and your judgmental spirit is a stain on your anti-charismatic piety. How many healing miracles have your experienced through your prayers for others?
btw, the UMC rejected gay marriage and ordination at their special February conference.

@Nancy, I was a theology professor for 12 years at a university near you. I pastored 2 liberal churches in Buffalo not because I agreed with their liberalism, but because I wanted to exercise a conservative evangelical influence there. I remain in regular communication with believers from one of those churches who are now solidly grounded in Charismatic experience and theology.

When it comes to gifts there are three groups.

There is my group which believes gifts are given, but in accordance to God's will.

Charisma Magazine

And then there is the extreme Pentecostal positions.

In spite of his claims Berserk is pushing Pentecostalism.
 

Nancy

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Dave L: "You make prayer to difficult and do not understand how the prayer of faith works."
I have conducted a 6-hour workshop on prayer for lay leaders. Have you? Your arrogant presumption is ghastly and your judgmental spirit is a stain on your anti-charismatic piety. How many healing miracles have your experienced through your prayers for others?
btw, the UMC rejected gay marriage and ordination at their special February conference.

@Nancy, I was a theology professor for 12 years at a university near you. I pastored 2 liberal churches in Buffalo not because I agreed with their liberalism, but because I wanted to exercise a conservative evangelical influence there. I remain in regular communication with believers from one of those churches who are now solidly grounded in Charismatic experience and theology.

How nice that you are still in touch with some of the old congregation. I attend The Chapel, used to be The Renovation Church many years back. The Chapel now has 4 locations, the newest is in Niagara Falls and, I used to go to the first one (The Chapel) in Amherst/Getzville area but, have moved too far for that one so, I go to the Cheektowaga campus. I love it there, they may not be charismatic, per se, but they are spirit filled and very warm and loving people ♥
 

Berserk

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How nice that you are still in touch with some of the old congregation. I attend The Chapel, used to be The Renovation Church many years back. The Chapel now has 4 locations, the newest is in Niagara Falls and, I used to go to the first one (The Chapel) in Amherst/Getzville area but, have moved too far for that one so, I go to the Cheektowaga campus. I love it there, they may not be charismatic, per se, but they are spirit filled and very warm and loving people ♥

I returned to Buffalo a few years ago to perform the wedding ceremony for a young man whose family attended my church when I was a pastor there. He now attends the Chapel! Small world.
 
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Nancy

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I returned to Buffalo a few years ago to perform the wedding ceremony for a young man whose family attended my church when I was a pastor there. He now attends the Chapel! Small world.

Oh yes, small world for sure. The Chapel is huge now, with all 4 locations. The Crosspoint campus (main and largest one) is already paid for as is Cheektowaga! I remember calling The Chapel a "country club Church", lol. There were a couple folks who left and started going there and it had a reputation of only the rich and well to do went there...it was not long before I ate those words :oops: And, all these years later, it is still where I feel more at home ♥
 

Berserk

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(5) Russ (a judge) and his wife Linda had attended a UMC church I pastored in Western New York. After I moved to Buffalo for a new one-year pastoral appointment there, Linda called me one Thursday night to say that Russ was in Florida maintaining a deathbed vigil for his mother who was in a nursing home, suffering from the last stages of Alzheimer's Disease. Russ was a new Christian. As a young man, he led his own rock and roll band and had irreparably alienated himself from his Mom. Now she was dying, unable to recognize him or even speak to him due to her acute dementia. Russ was desperate to seek a reconciliation with his Mom and was heart-broken by her manikin-like condition. Linda urged me to pray for him and I promised to do so.

When I tried to pray for Russ and his Mom, I realized that I lacked the faith that brings results and was merely doing my duty. I needed the help of a Charismatic prayer group that knew how to pray and get results. I was between church pastorates at the time and knew that there were no effective prayer warriors in my former church. So I invited myself to a small Charismatic prayer group that I had attended only once before. I explained the situation and shared how I felt led to handle this need. Here is what is said:

"Neither I nor any of you know Russ or his Mom, but I know Russ. I want you to gather around my chair and lay hands on me as a proxy for Russ's Mom and pray for a miraculous reconciliation."

They gladly agreed and, as they lay hands on me, the power of the Spirit fell on us and we wept for joy. As God's power surged through me, I knew something powerful had happened--but what?

The next day (Saturday morning), I called Linda to inform her of what I had done and what had happened. She replied that Russ had just called her from Florida. He had again visited his Mom's bedside as he had done in vain all week. Suddenly a miracle! His Mom suddenly became lucid and rational and for 45 minutes mother and son wept with joy as they shared their points of view about their alienation and became gloriously reconciled. Then, as if God clicked a switch in her brain, Russ's Mom lost her lucidity and, within minutes, was gone! Russ was in awe at the power of God's grace in answering prayer.

In this case I was the right prayer partner, but lacked the faith to produce the needed miracle. In tandem with that wonderful little Charismatic prayer group, we proved to be the right prayer partners for Russ's need.

That prayer group sang to this recording of the praise chorus "The Power of Your Love" and when I hear it again, the song brings back precious memories of that sacred night of prayer:

the power of your love youtube - Bing
 
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amadeus

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Sometimes people aren't healed because the right faith-filled person did not pray for the answer to the need in question. This thread will explore several relevant testimonies and then reflect on (a) the biblical basis for this reality and (b) what this means for the church's ministry of prayer support.

(1) Anglican mystic, Agnes Sanford, has written several books on prayer and spirituality. In her classic, "The Healing Light," she tells the story of her dying baby grandson. Doctors had doomed the baby to imminent death. She was caring for the boy and organized prayer vigils to pray for healing--to no effect. She prayed constantly for healing without success. Then one day, a young first-year Bible school student dropped by, saying, "I heard you have a dying baby here and I've come to pray for his healing." Agnes said she felt indignant at his presumption. Didn't he realize that she was an expert on prayer and that the room was prayer-saturated? The arrogance of this inexperienced young man! But she couldn't bring herself to deny his request; so she grudgingly complied. She watched as he picked up the baby with joy radiating from his face as he lovingly prayed for the boy's recovery. She saw the baby gloriously healed before her very eyes, and was properly humbled by the realization that this young man was the right person at that time to serve as God's instrument of healing.

She was too ego-invested and too agitated to be God's instrument of healing in this case, and the Bible school student's calm divinely instilled confidence was exactly what God needed to channel full healing. Such anecdotes can be multiplied.
Jesus always knew the right time and place. He did not heal every sick person in Israel. He is not call all of the naturally dead people out of their graves. Also, He never failed to heal a person when He tried to heal a person...

"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;" Ecc 3:1-3


Jesus never failed because always knew what time it was. Sometimes it is time to die. Sometimes it is time for healing. Are we hearing from God now so that we know?

Are we not like Him? Are we not becoming like Him? Are we not hearing His voice?

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." John 4:12
 
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Nancy

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Jesus always knew the right time and place. He did not heal every sick person in Israel. He is not call all of the naturally dead people out of their graves. Also, He never failed to heal a person when He tried to heal a person...

"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;" Ecc 3:1-3


Jesus never failed because always knew what time it was. Sometimes it is time to die. Sometimes it is time for healing. Are we hearing from God now so that we know?

Are we not like Him? Are we not becoming like Him? Are we not hearing His voice?

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." John 4:12

"Jesus never failed because always knew what time it was. Sometimes it is time to die. Sometimes it is time for healing. Are we hearing from God now so that we know?"


"All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be."
(Psalm 139:16 )
In Him Always! And to Him Be the Glory! :)
 
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