Covenants

Naomi25 said:

Well, the two are not mutually exclusive, are they? Isn't God even now working with the Gentile nation (mostly) while the Israel one is here? They do not need to be gone for that to happen. Why must we be gone for God to then start bringing large numbers of ethnic Jews to Christ?

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Because the present translations of Rom.11:24-26 paint the picture that way from a replacement theology perspective.

In reality, what "achri hou to plērōma tōn ethnōn eiselthē" tells us that "when the fullness in time of the Heathen Gentiles is complete," that after that all of Israel will be saved.

This is what we are told also by Christ in Luke 16 and 19 and that if they have not lost their saltiness, they will nor be discarded.

The fullness in time of the Heathen Gentiles is complete is a reference to Dan.8:13-14 where we are told that the Heathen Gentiles will be trampling the Sanctuary of God for a period of 2,300 years. When the time of prophecies concerning Heathen Gentiles is complete, the heathen gentiles are usually judged and punished by God. Rev.16:12-16 is also a reference to all the heathen gentile kings of the earth being assembled at Armageddon to be judged as well as Isa.24:21-22 describing the beasts in heaven and the kings of the earth being judged at the same time and then imprisoned in a pit for many days to await their punishment.

Satan has been good at getting his good and faithful servants into positions of influence within the "church" to twist the meaning of what the writers of the scriptures actually says.

But with access to the tools of translations and knowing the actual meaning of the original source text words, we are able to unravel and understand the scriptures to fully understand what was intended to be said in the bible.

Naomi, this is not a criticisms directed at you, because I to lack some of the tool to be able to unravel God's word so that it reflects God intent.

Shalom.

Jay Ross said:

Because the present translations of Rom.11:24-26 paint the picture that way from a replacement theology perspective.

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Okay...first...I usually find it problematic when attempting to either confirm or dismiss something purely based on the notion of "replacement theology" simply because I've found that the phrase is often misrepresented by those using it as a strawman argument. I'm happy to define what it is I believe Romans 9-11 says about Israel and the Church, but I think that must be done before any such terms get tossed around.
Secondly...how do translations paint pictures one way or the other? Do they translate the words/ideas that are there, or not? If they do not, then they are not a faithful translation and should be disregarded. Full stop. If they do translate the words/ideas that are there, that is not 'replacement theology's' fault, but again, those attempting to use a strawman to argue against something they don't like seeing there.

In reality, what "achri hou to plērōma tōn ethnōn eiselthē" tells us that "when the fullness in time of the Heathen Gentiles is complete," that after that all of Israel will be saved.

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I'm going to need to get you to confirm a few things, because I can't quite make some connections here.
When looking up the Greek, here's what I find:

ἄχρι οὗ τὸ πλήρωμα τῶν ἐθνῶν εἰσέλθῃ

ἄχρι - achri (until), οὗ - hou (that), τὸ - to (the), πλήρωμα - plērōma (fullness), τῶν - tōn (of the), ἐθνῶν - ethnōn (Gentiles), εἰσέλθῃ, - eiselthē (be come in).

So...I'm unsure where your "in reality" comes from. Does not the Greek say "until that the fullness of the Gentiles be come in"...in regards to the 'partial hardening' that has come upon Israel.
Where is the "in time of the heathens" in the Greek text?
Thanks.

This is what we are told also by Christ in Luke 16 and 19 and that if they have not lost their saltiness, they will nor be discarded.

The fullness in time of the Heathen Gentiles is complete is a reference to Dan.8:13-14 where we are told that the Heathen Gentiles will be trampling the Sanctuary of God for a period of 2,300 years. When the time of prophecies concerning Heathen Gentiles is complete, the heathen gentiles are usually judged and punished by God. Rev.16:12-16 is also a reference to all the heathen gentile kings of the earth being assembled at Armageddon to be judged as well as Isa.24:21-22 describing the beasts in heaven and the kings of the earth being judged at the same time and then imprisoned in a pit for many days to await their punishment.

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So...are you saying (sorry, am just now seeing it!) that in focusing on the 'heathen' part of the Gentiles, it is speaking to a fulfilment of the evil times and therefore whence it be done, judgement will fall? Rather then 'the fullness of the Gentile Church'?

Because...I would have to say, again, that I don't see these two things as necessarily mutually exclusive. First...the text doesn't appear to say 'heathen' Gentiles, so we must not assume it means that. The text in question is comparing the Church to Israel...one having been grafted into the tree, the other having been removed from it. So, it does't seem at a glance, that it has anything to do with 'gentile heathens'.
The reference in Daniel clearly does. However, how can we deny that at the end of human history, we are going to see a great convergence of events? The drawing to a close of the 'Gentile ingrafting'...the 'regrafting' of many Jews. And unbelievers filling up the cup of wrath that they will need to drink. I see it as sort of a funnel. There are not many Jewish people in the world, compared to the number of Gentile people still coming to Christ. I don't think that, considering a particular time period, it would take very long at all, for one to slow and the other to bloom. Weeks, perhaps? All surrounded by the growing wrath.
I just think it makes a kind of biblical symmetry.

Satan has been good at getting his good and faithful servants into positions of influence within the "church" to twist the meaning of what the writers of the scriptures actually says.

But with access to the tools of translations and knowing the actual meaning of the original source text words, we are able to unravel and understand the scriptures to fully understand what was intended to be said in the bible.

Naomi, this is not a criticisms directed at you, because I to lack some of the tool to be able to unravel God's word so that it reflects God intent.

Shalom.

Click to expand...

I think we can agree that everyone needs constant prayer and reflection on how to better understand the word of God. May we never stop asking him to show us his true intent.

Naomi25 said:

Okay...first...I usually find it problematic when attempting to either confirm or dismiss something purely based on the notion of "replacement theology" simply because I've found that the phrase is often misrepresented by those using it as a strawman argument. I'm happy to define what it is I believe Romans 9-11 says about Israel and the Church, but I think that must be done before any such terms get tossed around.
Secondly...how do translations paint pictures one way or the other? Do they translate the words/ideas that are there, or not? If they do not, then they are not a faithful translation and should be disregarded. Full stop. If they do translate the words/ideas that are there, that is not 'replacement theology's' fault, but again, those attempting to use a strawman to argue against something they don't like seeing there.


I'm going to need to get you to confirm a few things, because I can't quite make some connections here.
When looking up the Greek, here's what I find:

ἄχρι οὗ τὸ πλήρωμα τῶν ἐθνῶν εἰσέλθῃ

ἄχρι - achri (until), οὗ - hou (that), τὸ - to (the), πλήρωμα - plērōma (fullness), τῶν - tōn (of the), ἐθνῶν - ethnōn (Gentiles), εἰσέλθῃ, - eiselthē (be come in).

So...I'm unsure where your "in reality" comes from. Does not the Greek say "until that the fullness of the Gentiles be come in"...in regards to the 'partial hardening' that has come upon Israel.
Where is the "in time of the heathens" in the Greek text?
Thanks.


So...are you saying (sorry, am just now seeing it!) that in focusing on the 'heathen' part of the Gentiles, it is speaking to a fulfilment of the evil times and therefore whence it be done, judgement will fall? Rather then 'the fullness of the Gentile Church'?

Because...I would have to say, again, that I don't see these two things as necessarily mutually exclusive. First...the text doesn't appear to say 'heathen' Gentiles, so we must not assume it means that. The text in question is comparing the Church to Israel...one having been grafted into the tree, the other having been removed from it. So, it does't seem at a glance, that it has anything to do with 'gentile heathens'.
The reference in Daniel clearly does. However, how can we deny that at the end of human history, we are going to see a great convergence of events? The drawing to a close of the 'Gentile ingrafting'...the 'regrafting' of many Jews. And unbelievers filling up the cup of wrath that they will need to drink. I see it as sort of a funnel. There are not many Jewish people in the world, compared to the number of Gentile people still coming to Christ. I don't think that, considering a particular time period, it would take very long at all, for one to slow and the other to bloom. Weeks, perhaps? All surrounded by the growing wrath.
I just think it makes a kind of biblical symmetry.



I think we can agree that everyone needs constant prayer and reflection on how to better understand the word of God. May we never stop asking him to show us his true intent.

Click to expand...

Noami, I used the transliterated text from Bible Hub for that verse. The Greek text is "ἄχρι οὗ τὸ πλήρωμα τῶν ἐθνῶν εἰσέλθῃ"

I would also like to point you to this passage from Luke: -

Now Jerusalem is where God's sanctuary was located when Jesus spoke these words.

Now the Luke.21:20-24 and Romans.11:25 both speak of the same event.

I am confident of my understanding of this passage as the Parable of the Pound points to this same time when Satan goes away for a time, the sixth bowl judgement speaks of the Kings of the nations of the earth gathering at Armageddon just outside of Jerusalem, to point to other scriptural passages that also confirm my POV.

I would also point out to you that until the end of the fourth age of the visitation of the fathers iniquities upon their children and their children's children, has run it full course, in around 25 years time, (Ex.20:4-6) God will not turn to look upon Israel and redeem them.

My understanding of the scriptures do not link the redemption of Israel to the full number of the Gentiles entering into relationship with God. The Prophecy in Ez.47:1-12 and the Parable of the Sower do not suggest that at the end of this present age, all of the Gentiles will have come into the Kingdom. In fact, prophecy suggests that in the next age after Israel has been redeemed, that the gentiles will grab hold of an Israelite and ask them the way to Mt Zion.

There is enough evidence for me to hold the understanding that I do with Romans.11 25.

Shalom

Jay Ross said:

Noami, I used the transliterated text from Bible Hub for that verse. The Greek text is "ἄχρι οὗ τὸ πλήρωμα τῶν ἐθνῶν εἰσέλθῃ"

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Mmmm, yes. I also went to Biblehub, found that Greek and did me some transliteration....but as I pointed out, my interpretation seems to come out slightly different to yours, and it shouldn't...so....still no real clarification on that point...sorry.

I would also like to point you to this passage from Luke: -

Luke 21:20-24 The Destruction of Jerusalem
(Matt 24:15-28; Mark 13:14-23)
20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
​

Now Jerusalem is where God's sanctuary was located when Jesus spoke these words.

Now the Luke.21:20-24 and Romans.11:25 both speak of the same event.

I am confident of my understanding of this passage as the Parable of the Pound points to this same time when Satan goes away for a time, the sixth bowl judgement speaks of the Kings of the nations of the earth gathering at Armageddon just outside of Jerusalem, to point to other scriptural passages that also confirm my POV.

I would also point out to you that until the end of the fourth age of the visitation of the fathers iniquities upon their children and their children's children, has run it full course, in around 25 years time, (Ex.20:4-6) God will not turn to look upon Israel and redeem them.

My understanding of the scriptures do not link the redemption of Israel to the full number of the Gentiles entering into relationship with God. The Prophecy in Ez.47:1-12 and the Parable of the Sower do not suggest that at the end of this present age, all of the Gentiles will have come into the Kingdom. In fact, prophecy suggests that in the next age after Israel has been redeemed, that the gentiles will grab hold of an Israelite and ask them the way to Mt Zion.

There is enough evidence for me to hold the understanding that I do with Romans.11 25.

Shalom

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Eh...it's is getting late and my brain is refusing to function, sorry. We can come back and cover this other stuff if you like, it's not my intention to just skip over it.
But, answer me this: how is it that people still have a chance of coming to a saving faith after Christ comes back? Isn't everything we know and read pointing to the fact that we need to choose NOW, before Jesus returns? That once he does, it will be too late? How then, do you say there will be a time where Gentiles will seek him?

Naomi25 said:

But, answer me this: how is it that people still have a chance of coming to a saving faith after Christ comes back? Isn't everything we know and read pointing to the fact that we need to choose NOW, before Jesus returns? That once he does, it will be too late? How then, do you say there will be a time where Gentiles will seek him?

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Your question only becomes relevant if we believe that Christ comes back at the beginning of the next age. My understanding is that Christ does not come back until the end of the next age for the GWTRJ although there may be a fleeting period visitation at the being of the next age when the kings of the earth and their armies are judged at Armageddon when Christ comes like a thief.

Shalom

Jay Ross said:

Your question only becomes relevant if we believe that Christ comes back at the beginning of the next age. My understanding is that Christ does not come back until the end of the next age for the GWTRJ although there may be a fleeting period visitation at the being of the next age when the kings of the earth and their armies are judged at Armageddon when Christ comes like a thief.

Shalom

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So...you're a Postmillennialist? Sorry...just trying to get a hold of where you sit.
How does the 'come back at the end of the next age' fit with the idea that most of the "age to come" texts we see in scripture seem to speak of the eternal state? If the 'next age' is eternal...how can Christ come back at the end of it...if it's ongoing? Also...shouldn't he be here for the eternal state? Also...even the texts that speak of 'thief in the night' can still be linked to the other 'comings' of Christ, and therefore to the judgement of all mankind, one way or the other...so again...I struggle to see how that works.
Thanks.

Naomi25 said:

So...you're a Postmillennialist? Sorry...just trying to get a hold of where you sit.
How does the 'come back at the end of the next age' fit with the idea that most of the "age to come" texts we see in scripture seem to speak of the eternal state? If the 'next age' is eternal...how can Christ come back at the end of it...if it's ongoing? Also...shouldn't he be here for the eternal state? Also...even the texts that speak of 'thief in the night' can still be linked to the other 'comings' of Christ, and therefore to the judgement of all mankind, one way or the other...so again...I struggle to see how that works.
Thanks.

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One prophecy, Ez.47:1-12, tells us that there are 4,000 years between when God's Glory filled Solomon's Temple and the River of Life, the river which represents all of the saints in its width, finally ends with it cascading over the escarpment into the "bad lands" in the valley and brings healing to the land.

My search of the Biblical chronology suggests that God's Glory filled Solomon's Temple around the year 932 BC, (be cause of the uncertainty in the relativity of the calendars), which means that the number of years since God's Glory filled the temple is around 2950 years with around 1050 years still to go before the GWTRJ occurs.

Now the seventh Age, which has been labelled the Millennium Age length is 1,000 years for the imprisonment of Satan before he is released plus the little while period where he goes to the four corners of the earth to assemble an army to go up against Jerusalem one last time. How long is the little while period? My understanding is that it will be 20-30 years in duration. That means that the Bottomless pit is opened and Satan, the Beast and the scorpions like creatures will only have around 20-30 years to do what is prophetically reveals in scripture before their final judgement occurs.

Now the translation of the second part of Rom.11:25 as I see it should read as:

ὅτι that G:3754 πώρωσις a hardening G:4457 ἀπὸ in G:575 μέρους part G3313 τῷ the/to G:3588 Ἰσραὴλ Isreal G:2474 γέγονεν has happened G:1096 ἄχρι until G:0891 οὗ that G3739 τὸ the G:3588 πλήρωμα fullness {with respect to time} G:4138 τῶν of the G:3588 ἐθνῶν Gentiles {heathen} G:1484 εἰσέλθῃ may/has come in {is completed} G:1525

The question I had to answer was, "What is the fulness of the Gentiles referring too?"

Jesus speaks of the Destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD and that the Israelites will be lead away in captivity into all the nations. Jesus also tells us that Jerusalem will be trampled until the period of time of the Gentiles trampling the sanctuary in Jerusalem has run its full course over time.


What was He referring to? This: -

Daniel.8:8-14: - 8 Therefore the male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, the large horn was broken, and in place of it four notable ones came up toward the four winds of heaven. 9 And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. 10 And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them. 11 He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down. 12 Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily sacrifices; and he cast truth down to the ground. He did all this and prospered.

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, "How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?"

14 And he said to me, "For two thousand three hundred days,{/years}; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed."

Where did the army come from that the Little Horn had influence over? It came for the Heathen Gentiles. Why was the Little Horn Given an army to trample the sanctuary of God? Because of the transgression of Israel and their continual idolatrous worship.

How long was the visitation of Israel's iniquities to last? Exodus 20:4-6 tells us that the iniquities would be visited on the children and the Children's children in the third and the fourth age??? which is a period of around 2,000 years. That means that the completion in time of the trampling of the Sanctuary by the Gentiles is coming to its completion in our near future and the event that marks that completion is the judgement of the Kings of the earth when they are collectively drawn to Armageddon.

At the same time the end of the devastations and desolation of Jerusalem will end because the war in heaven will be over because Satan and the other fallen wicked heavenly hosts will also be judged and thrown down to the earth were they will be imprisoned in a pit for many days to await their punishment.

In Isaiah 61:4 we are told that after two ages of desolation and devastation that the Israelites will rebuild their houses, i.e. the twelve tribes of Israel. They will be allowed to do so because Israel at that time will cry out to the Lord with a repentant heart.

Jesus spoke of this in Luke.19:14 when Satan's citizens, i.e. Israel send a delegation after Satan expressing their desire not to have Satan as their king over them. Also in Luke.14:28-32 Jesus tells Israel that they will attempt to build a new temple to God but that they will not have the means to complete the task and will look foolish to the rest of the world. He also tell of a king fighting against a collective army near Jerusalem and that they will seek this Kings terms of peace.

This is all unfolding at present and will draw to a collusion around the time of the end of this present age as the Millennium Age is herald in.

Then at the end of the Millennium Age the GWTRJ of the nations will occur.

Shalom

Naomi25 said:

So...you're a Postmillennialist? Sorry...just trying to get a hold of where you sit.

Click to expand...

I am not sure that they would easily welcome my views above either as they are probably to left field for them as well.

Shalom

Jay Ross said:

One prophecy, Ez.47:1-12, tells us that there are 4,000 years between when God's Glory filled Solomon's Temple and the River of Life, the river which represents all of the saints in its width, finally ends with it cascading over the escarpment into the "bad lands" in the valley and brings healing to the land.

My search of the Biblical chronology suggests that God's Glory filled Solomon's Temple around the year 932 BC, (be cause of the uncertainty in the relativity of the calendars), which means that the number of years since God's Glory filled the temple is around 2950 years with around 1050 years still to go before the GWTRJ occurs.

Now the seventh Age, which has been labelled the Millennium Age length is 1,000 years for the imprisonment of Satan before he is released plus the little while period where he goes to the four corners of the earth to assemble an army to go up against Jerusalem one last time. How long is the little while period? My understanding is that it will be 20-30 years in duration. That means that the Bottomless pit is opened and Satan, the Beast and the scorpions like creatures will only have around 20-30 years to do what is prophetically reveals in scripture before their final judgement occurs.

Now the translation of the second part of Rom.11:25 as I see it should read as:

ὅτι that G:3754 πώρωσις a hardening G:4457 ἀπὸ in G:575 μέρους part G3313 τῷ the/to G:3588 Ἰσραὴλ Isreal G:2474 γέγονεν has happened G:1096 ἄχρι until G:0891 οὗ that G3739 τὸ the G:3588 πλήρωμα fullness {with respect to time} G:4138 τῶν of the G:3588 ἐθνῶν Gentiles {heathen} G:1484 εἰσέλθῃ may/has come in {is completed} G:1525

The question I had to answer was, "What is the fulness of the Gentiles referring too?"

Jesus speaks of the Destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD and that the Israelites will be lead away in captivity into all the nations. Jesus also tells us that Jerusalem will be trampled until the period of time of the Gentiles trampling the sanctuary in Jerusalem has run its full course over time.

Luke.21:24: - 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.​

What was He referring to? This: -

Daniel.8:8-14: - 8 Therefore the male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, the large horn was broken, and in place of it four notable ones came up toward the four winds of heaven. 9 And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. 10 And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them. 11 He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down. 12 Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily sacrifices; and he cast truth down to the ground. He did all this and prospered.

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, "How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?"

14 And he said to me, "For two thousand three hundred days,{/years}; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed."

Where did the army come from that the Little Horn had influence over? It came for the Heathen Gentiles. Why was the Little Horn Given an army to trample the sanctuary of God? Because of the transgression of Israel and their continual idolatrous worship.

How long was the visitation of Israel's iniquities to last? Exodus 20:4-6 tells us that the iniquities would be visited on the children and the Children's children in the third and the fourth age??? which is a period of around 2,000 years. That means that the completion in time of the trampling of the Sanctuary by the Gentiles is coming to its completion in our near future and the event that marks that completion is the judgement of the Kings of the earth when they are collectively drawn to Armageddon.

At the same time the end of the devastations and desolation of Jerusalem will end because the war in heaven will be over because Satan and the other fallen wicked heavenly hosts will also be judged and thrown down to the earth were they will be imprisoned in a pit for many days to await their punishment.

In Isaiah 61:4 we are told that after two ages of desolation and devastation that the Israelites will rebuild their houses, i.e. the twelve tribes of Israel. They will be allowed to do so because Israel at that time will cry out to the Lord with a repentant heart.

Jesus spoke of this in Luke.19:14 when Satan's citizens, i.e. Israel send a delegation after Satan expressing their desire not to have Satan as their king over them. Also in Luke.14:28-32 Jesus tells Israel that they will attempt to build a new temple to God but that they will not have the means to complete the task and will look foolish to the rest of the world. He also tell of a king fighting against a collective army near Jerusalem and that they will seek this Kings terms of peace.

This is all unfolding at present and will draw to a collusion around the time of the end of this present age as the Millennium Age is herald in.

Then at the end of the Millennium Age the GWTRJ of the nations will occur.

Shalom

Click to expand...

Okay...I have to be honest here...I've never come across "seven ages" in scripture before. And at present, I just don't have time to dig into what you mean when you say this, or the teaching of it...I've just promised brakelite to dig into something else, and that's it, that's my free time and my excess 'think-i-ness'.
So...sorry...perhaps at some point in the future you and I can dig into this more in depth, but right now, I just cannot comment on it with anything approaching biblical or intelligent rebuttal, and that would be a disservice to both of us and the texts involved.

Naomi25 said:

Okay...I have to be honest here...I've never come across "seven ages" in scripture before. And at present, I just don't have time to dig into what you mean when you say this, or the teaching of it...I've just promised brakelite to dig into something else, and that's it, that's my free time and my excess 'think-i-ness'.
So...sorry...perhaps at some point in the future you and I can dig into this more in depth, but right now, I just cannot comment on it with anything approaching biblical or intelligent rebuttal, and that would be a disservice to both of us and the texts involved.

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Naomi, that is fine. With your understanding of a near future return of Christ, it is difficult to break out and look at a distant future return and make sense of it from just a few posts. We will see if we both have the time to connect in the future.

Shalom

Jay Ross said:

Naomi, that is fine. With your understanding of a near future return of Christ, it is difficult to break out and look at a distant future return and make sense of it from just a few posts. We will see if we both have the time to connect in the future.

Shalom

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Sure! Although, I feel compelled to add.....its not an 'understanding' per se that has me focusing on a 'near future' return...but hope. I see the bible teaching a 'future' return...that's it. That could be near, that could be far. It's hope and hope alone that places it close in time!