Son of Perdition

I have pretty much said all I have to say on the subject so Im not going to keep harping on it those with eyes to see will see what God allows them to see. But I will leave this topic with a few points for you to consider1. remember we are reading this in English the original Greek is very clear that this Word Perdition means utter destructruction/ forever condemned 2. God has only forever condemned One and that is Satan3. Gods word tells us NO ONE will be judged until the White throne Judgement4. are we to assume he is lying or had some special judgement day for Judas??I think this gives Judas more credit then he deserves5. Judas was a simply man that showed a lack of faith that allowed Satan to work through himsomething that happens everyday to many6.Judas did not kill Christ as far as he knew they were looking for Jesus to question him about whether he had broken any laws, I'm sure Judas felt Jesus was innocent of these crimes and would tell them so, he didn't understand what was going to happen.Im not excusing Judas but I ask if you .....think God would give him the same punishment as Satan a Fallen Angel that had superior knowledge and wants to over throw God.If so Then you must question God himself, for if he UTTERLY DESTROYS/CONDEMS FOREVERa man that had a weakness and God allowed him because of his weakness to be used to bring about Gods Plan. Then he is not the God we learn about.So if in your heart you are comfortable with this simply because of the way you interpret one verse in English without understanding the Words implication. Then I guess you have to run with it.7. But I will go with God NO ONE has been judged to utter destruction/condemned for eternity ....except Satan he is the Only Son of Perdition.8. Christ died to defeat Death/sin who is Satan the son of Perdition,the man of lawlessness,the devil,the dragon, Lucifer, the prince of tyre. the king of babylon,the serpent, what ever name you want to call him he is all of these and more either in title or type, not Judas Im not willing to comprimise All Of Gods Words because of one verse that creates nothing but contradictions in the rest of Gods Words I find that these kind of errors lye with us the reader Not Our Father. My Father Tells me One is condemed and Im taking his Word.Words you need to learnhttp://www.biblestudy.org/question/list-of...-for-devil.htmlhttp://askville.amazon.com/Names-Satan-fou...questId=7488251 http://www.intothyword.org/apps/articles/d...4&columnid=3844http://www.abecedarian.org/Pages/namesofsatan.htmhttp://www.markbeast.com/satan/names-of-satan.htm

(logabe;57903)
In order to understand the son of perdition, you must understand that God has vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor for the purpose of His Plan. Example, God had to harden Pharaoh's heart several times so he could do God's Will (Exodus 11:9-10). Notice the reason why God hardened Pharoah's heart. So his wonders shall be multiplied in the land of Egypt. How can that be fair? That's what Paul said in (Romans 9:18-19) Why does He yet find fault? Paul was saying, Pharaoh didn't have a choice so how could that be fair. He had to say no to Moses because it was the will of God.Logabe
Logabe, This is of topic but I notice you are just north of New Orleans. Stay safe!

Ahhh *sigh* I could really still go either way. Although I still say due to context it seems very clear that he is talking of Judas, one of the diciples he is talking about (because he is not talking about the people or the world, he is talking about the disciples, we can assume that "not one is lost except" as meaning not one of the disciples except...) I am also in full agreement however that only one is forever condemned until the day of judgement.So here's where I'm leaning, and I'm afraid this topic will be exhausted before I arrive at a solid answer. It may not be necessary for me to understand if I can't understand.But check your first link kriss. "Son of Perdition" is shown to be mentioned once. Sure, we have looked up the meaning of the word 'perdition', but that page also gives a verse saying," But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils. " (Luke 11:15)The chief of devils...hmmm...Jesus at the table said, "But one of you is a devil!" so hmmm....Could this Judas, being a man, not necessarily be condemned forever, but as a devil, be a son of the one who is? A son of perdition?I'm not trying to argue this till I'm blue in the face, I haven't even landed on a solid argument. I'm seeking truth in the matter, but like I said, if it's not God's purpose for me to understand this, then I never will.Just My Two Cents

I was showing that yes one person might say Judas but lots of others say it is Satan so we must compare with the rest of scripture and Gods Word there is only one conclusion I see. (God is the right one of course )Jesus called lots of people devils,vipers, antichristsGod often uses these descriptions to depict charachter or ones actions.The problem is like you said There is only one condemed to death, and such Perdition means utterly destroyed/ forever condemed there is also no doubt who is refered to in 2 Thess so we have a president that God calls Satan THE SON OF PERDITIONAll evidence combined there is ONLY ONE thats fits without having to say, what if ,could this or that be, ect. we know there has been no judgement yet so to use a word that means one has been Judged to the fate we know Satan has defys logic to me. So guess we will have to leave this one hanging out there

(MyTwoCents;57922)
...." But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils. " (Luke 11:15)The chief of devils...hmmm...Jesus at the table said, "But one of you is a devil!" ....
Luk 11:15 But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub (G954) the chief of the devils. G954Beelzeboulbeh-el-zeb-ool'Of Chaldee origin (by parody upon [H1176]); dung god; Beelzebul, a name of Satan: - Beelzebub.The difference is the words "the" and "a". "THE" is a definite article.You would have a whole lot easier time with this if you bought a good old KJV and a good Strong's Concordance. (a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance by published by Henderickson)

I was thinking today about buying a KJV, because I only read it when I use bible gateway, and I'm starting to see good reason for using that version. I'll pick up Strong's Concordance also.

excellent twocents its the best way to study

(MyTwoCents;57951)
I was thinking today about buying a KJV, because I only read it when I use bible gateway, and I'm starting to see good reason for using that version. I'll pick up Strong's Concordance also.
If you are going to purchase a KJV I would highly recommend "The KJV Companion Bible" edited by E. W. Bullinger, and published by Kregel Publishing. You can find them in some Book stores or online: http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Boo...&Go.x=18&Go.y=9Do not get the condenced version or the pocket version, they are not as good.

(MyTwoCents;57951)
I was thinking today about buying a KJV, because I only read it when I use bible gateway, and I'm starting to see good reason for using that version. I'll pick up Strong's Concordance also.
Yea, I knew Satan hates that bible.

(tomwebster;57899)
Where does it say Satan "Kept the Word"????? Certainly not in verse 6.
Unless I am missing something with my 6th grade English background, that is simple. It goes to words used and structure.“They” is a personal pronoun (3rd personal plural) and is used 18 times in John 17. Pronouns are not typically or maybe properly used in writing unless it is already understood who or in this case whom one is talking about. So if one is unclear when reading who or whom a particular pronoun is referring to, then one should be able to read prior sentences to find out.In this case, EVERY single time “they” is used by Jesus in this prayer it is in reference to either those that God has given Him while He is here on earth or those that followed Him while He was here on earth or those that kept His Word while He was here on earth. In one case we might say THEY may include ALL that have/will follow Him (vs 3) and that is in keeping with the theme of "them and "many" in the prior verse. However, to avoid any confusion in the rest of the prayer, verse 6 narrows for the reader paying attention who he says "THEM" refers to in the prayer - a very specific group of men (Satan is not a man). The pronoun is never again redefined for us during the rest of the prayer. As verse 6 comes after verse 3, any idea that a subsequent “they” could possibly refer to some larger group is unfounded.“Them”, another personal pronoun, is used no less than 23 times. Again EVERY single time “them” is used it refers to a very small select group of men defined in verse 6, those that were given to Him by God, followed Him and KEPT HIS WORD. So again, the translator has clearly identified the “them” in verse 6 as His disciples/Apostles. Something of a familiar re-occurring theme should be apparent to the reader by this point.The structure of the Chapter is a single continuous prayer by our Lord Jesus to His Father as recorded by John. Generally when people are speaking it is common, at least in English to group common thoughts, ideas in some form structure. That structure is commonly sentences combined into paragraphs. Here we have 26 verses without a break in the common thought. In the verse in question, the word “them” is used 3 times and there has been no break in thought or structure since verse 6. There is nothing (that means none as in zero – as in the null sense) or absolutely nothing from verse 6, where "They" and "Them" are defined to verse 12 to indicate a transition or change that would indicate that John understood or that we should understand these pronouns to be referring to some wider or different group of people/beings from the 20 other times he heard Jesus say the same word. Now in verse 12 John has Jesus saying “none of them is lost, but the son of perdition”. The word "but" is a conjunction, joining the thought "none of them is lost" with an exception - the son of predition. Which is to say “one” of “them” is "lost". He also further indicates this individual is in this state of “lost” so that prophecy may be fulfilled. So the son of perdition is one of THEM, is lost and it was prophesied it would be so.SO, if the claim is this one individual in verse 12 is Satan, then it follows with that understanding that John has Jesus saying Satan is one of THEM. Which is the same THEM and THEY referred to repeatedly throughout the prayer. Which means Satan would be a member of the group of the individuals the Father has given the Son while He was here on earth (Apostles/disciples). As a member included in that group then we would be understanding that Satan glorified Jesus, that Satan received His Word, that Jesus wants Satan to be one with the rest of Them (Apostles!!!), that Satan kept His Word…..and so on. Am certainly no English professor, but perhaps someone who is could explain how Satan becomes one of THEM in verse 12 in order to identify Satan as the “the son of perdition” yet we have to exclude Satan from every other reference to THEM or THEY in the same prayer in order to avoid the ridiculous implications it makes as shown in the previous paragraph.
but the son of perdition; The word "THE" indicates that Christ is referring to the same being. THE is a definite article.
My guess is by this you mean to say "THE Son of Perdition" is different than perhaps "a son of perdition" or just "son of perdition". Can't argue against that, but not sure it helps your case of not making Satan one of THEM or THEY. But as you cared to mention this, does "THE" really further identify here or is it merely proper English? As I remember definite articles and sentence structure, one cannot have a proper noun at the end of the sentence such as this without using such an article. In this verse, "son of perdition" is a proper noun, a label for an individual. The English writer could not have rendered this sentence "but son of perdition". So the inclusion of the definite article "the" is required for proper grammar and by itself does not help us identify the individual in question. And from somewhere in the back of my mind, is it not normally a convention that if "The" were meant to be understood as a part of a proper noun, as in "The Son of Perdition" it would normally be capitalized? (the son and The Son come to mind) Would have to ask an English professor that one.
"son of perdition" see the above.
Reader understanding proper use of personal pronouns in identifying the group or individual referred to by writer - see THEY and THEM above.

waquinas,Joh 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. Joh 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. Joh 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. The They's and the Them's are refering to "the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word." the disciples. Did God give Christ Satan? NO! Did Satan evere KEEP the Word? NO! he miss-quoted it but NEVER kept it! Satan was comdemned to perish in the 1st earth age. He is the ONLY named being condemned to perish.Joh 17:7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. Joh 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost,(G622), but the son of perdition;(G684); that the scripture might be fulfilled. G622apollumiap-ol'-loo-meeFrom G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.apollumi= one of the strongest words in the Greek language to express final and irretrievable destruction.G684ἀπώλειαapōleiaap-o'-li-aFrom a presumed derivative of G622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal): - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.Joh 17:13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. Joh 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. Joh 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. Joh 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. Joh 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; Christ here is including us, Christians, in this prayer. The value of "they" and "them" includes us from here on. PTL!Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Joh 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. Joh 17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. Joh 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

(found in Alaska;57786)
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:12Jesus said "None of them is lost, but the son of perdition", who was the son of perdition and how was he lost?
Simple, He was talking about Judas. Thats it. context context context. A simple rule.Joh 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me. Here is another reference to Judas who fulfillled the prophecy of Psalm 41Psa 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.

(1 of 3 Martyrs;57972)
(found om Alaska;57786)
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:12Jesus said "None of them is lost, but the son of perdition", who was the son of perdition and how was he lost
Simple, He was talking about Judas. Thats it. context context context. A simple rule.Joh 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me. Here is another reference to Judas who fulfillled the prophecy of Psalm 41Psa 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.Wrong answer. The answer is Satan. Judas did not kill Christ. In fact it was Satan and the sons of Cain.

(tomwebster;57965)
waquinas,Joh 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. Joh 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. Joh 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. The They's and the Them's are refering to "the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word." the disciples. Did God give Christ Satan? NO! Did Satan evere KEEP the Word? NO! he miss-quoted it but NEVER kept it! Satan was comdemned to perish in the 1st earth age. He is the ONLY named being condemned to perish.Joh 17:7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. Joh 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost,(G622), but the son of perdition;(G684); that the scripture might be fulfilled. G622apollumiap-ol'-loo-meeFrom G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.apollumi= one of the strongest words in the Greek language to express final and irretrievable destruction.G684ἀπώλειαapōleiaap-o'-li-aFrom a presumed derivative of G622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal): - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.Joh 17:13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. Joh 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. Joh 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. Joh 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. Joh 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; Christ here is including us, Christians, in this prayer. The value of "they" and "them" includes us from here on. PTL!Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Joh 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. Joh 17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. Joh 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
my whole point. Thank you for helping me demonstrate it more better and precisely.Again, I would have to ask an English professor to explain how we are to read this and go from recognizing who the writer intended "they" and "them" to be in verse 6 to some other meaning in verse 12? No matter whom one claims this “son” to be, clearly the "but" in verse 12 joins the "son of perdition" to a group, identifying that individual as being one of "them"? The only question then becomes what group is the writer referring to?We apparently both agree that verse 6 indicates "they" and "them" are the disciples, perhaps only the Apostles. However I see nothing in the above which indicates that you see that definition changes prior to verse 12.I do note that you have pointed out and I agree that like verse 2 there is another transition/change in verse 20 identifying the group referred by the pronouns. Proper grammar then dictates that the newly defined group identified in verse 20 applies to the pronouns used AFTER that verse. So apparently we agree that there is a group 1 (a larger group identified in vs 2) and used up to verse 6. We agree a much smaller group is identified in verse 6 and thereafter associated with "they" and "them". And we agree a larger group again is identified in verse 20. All of these groups are properly identified by the writer and would apply in the verses that follow those identifications up to the point where a new group is introduced. So again and apparently we agree here; that in verse 12 the group associated at that point with both “they” and “them” and indicated by conjunction as including the “son of perdition” is the disciples (or some might say possibly only the Apostles). As in “none is lost, but the” ONE. “One” belongs to the group referred to. So whomever one says this "son of perdiction" is, we both agree that the writer indicates in verse 12 that individual is a member of the group indentified by "them".I would point out again that no where in the entire Chapter does the writer indicate a group associated with "they" or "them" for which I would include Satan, which was my point. We note that none of the groups you identify above would include Satan either. Hey, so apparently we agree on something and you have more better and precisely made my point. Thank you again.

(waquinas;57985)
...Again, I would have to ask an English professor to explain how we are to read this and go from recognizing who the writer intended "they" and "them" to be in verse 6 to some other meaning in verse 12? ....
Well it was written in Greek so maybe it would be better to ask a Greek Prof

Waquinas/Red anyone else in confusion here After re reading this thread to see if there was something I neglected to sat to show you what this verse saysI think I know where confusion comes in here This is not a Prayer about/to the Apostles Jesus is not talking just about the Apostles he is Praying to God about his ministry he is teaching/speaking to all believers the Entire Body of Christ John 17:1 "These words spake Jesus, and lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said, "Father, the hour is come; glorify Thy Son, that Thy Son also may glorify Thee:"Jesus didn't have to speak these words to the Father, but He spoke them for our benefit. This whole seventeenth chapter is given by Christ to teach us how to pray. Within this chapter we will see the whole plan of God, and everything that we should know about salvation, election, grace, the different ages, and who has power, and who does not have power. We need to know how to interact with our heavenly Father.It is time now for Jesus to go to the cross and defeat deathJohn 17:4 "I have glorified Thee on the earth: I have finished the work which Thou gavest Me to do." In other words, Jesus had finished the work that the Father had given Him to this point in time. Jesus had spoken the words that God the Father had given Him to teach, to fulfill the plan of God, which is His will and written by the prophets in the Scriptures. Jesus ministry was basically over, for all the teachings necessary in word, and miracles had been preformed. The thing left to do in the fulfillment of Scriptures for salvation to come to sinful man, was His humility, suffering, His death and resurrection, and this must be done separate from His disciples. There are many places in the Scriptures that tell of Jesus duty to the Father, that tells us of His purpose, other then salvation.Hebrews 2:14; "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil,"This is telling us why Jesus came to this earth, and come in the form of a flesh body. John 17:6 "I have manifested Thy name unto the men which Thou gavest Me out of the world: Thine they were, and Thou gavest them Me; and they have kept Thy word." John 17:7 "Now they have known that all things whatsoever Thou hast given Me are of Thee."John 17:8 "For I have given unto them the words which Thou gavest Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from Thee, and they have believed that Thou didst send Me.""The words which Thou gavest Me;" is the Bible that we hold in our hands, and study by. When the disciples, and followers of Jesus saw the miracles and heard Jesus' teaching, they had the insight to know that Jesus was sent from God. They had the eyes to see and the ears to hear and understand that it was Christ that was before them. When they saw, they believed that Jesus was the sent one.John 17:9 "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which Thou hast given Me; for they are Thine."Jesus is praying for each of those that see and believe that He is the sent one, because He is their advocate before the Father. Jesus became their advocate the moment they saw and believed on Him, and repented to Him of their sinsJohn 17:10 "And all Mine are Thine, and Thine are Mine; and I am glorified in them."He is praying for all of us past and present When you read this chapter as just a prayer about the apostles you diminish the entire ministry of Christ When you view this chapter in context of being to the Whole body of the church it makes perfect sense to understand that he is saying none are lost except... The Son of Perdition which is Satan John 17:25 "O righteous Father, the world hath not known Thee: but I have known Thee and these have known that Thou hast sent Me."Jesus is telling us that our Heavenly Father is right in everything that He does. This is why it is important that when you pray to the Father, that you pray in Jesus name. He is the only authority that you have before the throne of God. The Father desires your love and prayers, and He in His plan, He sent forth the Son for that purpose. for the purpose that the Son would be your advocate before His throne.

Actually Kriss, I think the prayer for all other starts in verse 20..."I do not pray only for them. I pray also for those who will believe in me because of their message. 21 Father, I pray that all of them will be one, just as you are in me and I am in you. I want them also to be in us. Then the world will believe that you have sent me.So anything before this is directed at the 12.

So its your take then that Jesus is just praying for the apostels? And not,his ministery, the Elect and the church Body?well I guess we just have to disagree on this for now I have to go with the majority on this one as you can see from the links I have given in my previous post 5 out of 6 understand this is Satan not Judas as I believe the rest of the scripture bears out, that there is no one judged until GWT judgement not even Judas.GB

(kriss;58025)
So its your take then that Jesus is just praying for the apostels? And not the Elect and the church Body?well I guess we just have to disagree on this for now I have to go with the majority on this one as you can see from the links I have given in my previous post 5 out of 6 understand this is Satan not Judas as I believe the rest of the scripture bears out, that there is no one judged until GWT judgement not even Judas.GB
I also like to point out a little something here... Even though Satan is the only one Judged to the Second Death......For people saying that Judas is the "son of perdition"... is really an abomination... It's like saying there are "TWO" sons of perdition... which that also is abomination to God.

(thesuperjag;58026)
I also like to point out a little something here... Even though Satan is the only one Judged to the Second Death......For people saying that Judas is the "son of perdition"... is really an abomination... It's like saying there are "TWO" sons of perdition... which that also is abomination to God.
How is it any different than saying that we are all sonS of God? Even though I care less about this topic- I took the devils advocate to really see why people take it this way. I remain thinking that before verse 20- Jesus is talking about the 12 given to Him. I do not deny however, that Jesus continues in his prayers- Including all his "church"