Son of Perdition

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Jordan

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I also like to point out a little something here... Even though Satan is the only one Judged to the Second Death......For people saying that Judas is the "son of perdition"... is really an abomination... It's like saying there are "TWO" sons of perdition... which that also is abomination to God.
How is it any different than saying that we are all sonS of God? Even though I care less about this topic- I took the devils advocate to really see why people take it this way. I remain thinking that before verse 20- Jesus is talking about the 12 given to Him. I do not deny however, that Jesus continues in his prayers- Including all his "church"It is unrelated, sons of God, of course we are, so is Satan. But it does not even come close to the son of perditionHaving saying like the are "TWO sons of perdition" is like saying there are TWO Sons of God (I put that capital S on there on purpose...)
 

Red_Letters88

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It is unrelated, sons of God, of course we are, so is Satan. But it does not even come close to the son of perditionHaving saying like the are "TWO sons of perdition" is like saying there are TWO Sons of God (I put that capital S on there on purpose...)
Your conclusion only works if indeed the ONLY son of perdition EVER mentioned only applies to satan. Which is all clealy based on interpretation. Its not bad to not go with the flow Jag, search these things alone.
 

Christina

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Please show any scripture that says a man/anyone besides Satan was already ever judged to utter destruction/condemed forever. If there is none then there is only one Son of Pertion
 

Red_Letters88

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Please show any scripture that says a man/anyone besides Satan was already ever judged to utter destruction/condemed forever. If there is none then there is only one Son of Pertion
Which is the only reason I feel- it is indeed talking about Satan. Context throws me off on this one: but I can not find anywhere (even the one predestined to betray him) that shows ANY are pre-judged.
 

Jordan

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It is unrelated, sons of God, of course we are, so is Satan. But it does not even come close to the son of perditionHaving saying like the are "TWO sons of perdition" is like saying there are TWO Sons of God (I put that capital S on there on purpose...)
Your conclusion only works if indeed the ONLY son of perdition EVER mentioned only applies to satan. Which is all clealy based on interpretation. Its not bad to not go with the flow Jag, search these things alone.And Lucy is the ONLY son of perdition. And I don't follow with the flow. Which is better? A mouth of two or three witnesses or the witness of the whole world.BTW, I had God teach me alone before I came here...(Red_Letters88;58038)
(Kriss;58035)
Please show any scripture that says a man/anyone besides Satan was already ever judged to utter destruction/condemed forever. If there is none then there is only one Son of Pertion
Which is the only reason I feel- it is indeed talking about Satan. Context throws me off on this one: but I can not find anywhere (even the one predestined to betray him) that shows ANY are pre-judged.There is one main good guy and one main bad guy... Christ vs Satan. It really shouldn't be that hard to figure out which one of the two is lost...of course I know the answer.And humans aren't the main either.
 

treeoflife

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I agree completely. I see how this could fit satan if you really stretched it....but the entire prayer is focused on his disciples. Why are people so quick to forget that Jesus told Judas that he would betray him BEFORE it happened- Jesus clearly said- woe to that one that betrays the son of man, it would be better for him if he wasnt ever born. Coming from the judges mouth- these do not sound like words you would label on someone- unless they really were lost.Btw Kriss, nobody said he was judged us or the verse. Are there not lost people living today? Was Jesus not prophesied to be betrayed?And Jag, reread that post of his- nobody is calling Judas anything more than a man.
Also agreed. I see how Kriss (and others) could read it as such that it means Satan (and perhaps it does, in part), but I do believe this is referring specifically to Judas here for sure.
Luke22:3Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
Perhaps Judas was called the same as Satan because Satan entered Judas? I do believe that the lost Son of Perdition referred to in this passage in John 17:12, is/was Judas.
 

Christina

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LOL...I just love this you guys are always disagreeing with me because I do not go with what the majority teach, for once I agree with the majority and you guys disagree with meIts like we have a famine on earth for the true Word of God
smile.gif
Oh yeah we do.I love you my brothers and sisters but you could be in danger of driving me crazy:)
 

Jordan

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I agree completely. I see how this could fit satan if you really stretched it....but the entire prayer is focused on his disciples. Why are people so quick to forget that Jesus told Judas that he would betray him BEFORE it happened- Jesus clearly said- woe to that one that betrays the son of man, it would be better for him if he wasnt ever born. Coming from the judges mouth- these do not sound like words you would label on someone- unless they really were lost.Btw Kriss, nobody said he was judged us or the verse. Are there not lost people living today? Was Jesus not prophesied to be betrayed?And Jag, reread that post of his- nobody is calling Judas anything more than a man.
Also agreed. I see how Kriss (and others) could read it as such that it means Satan (and perhaps it does, in part), but I do believe this is referring specifically to Judas here for sure.
Luke 22:3Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
Perhaps Judas was called the same as Satan because Satan entered Judas? I do believe that the lost Son of Perdition referred to in this passage in John 17:12, is/was Judas.So to your opinion and others, Christ is not Saviour of the world?
 

waquinas

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(Originally Posted by kriss)
Please show any scripture that says a man/anyone besides Satan was already ever judged to utter destruction/condemed forever. If there is none then there is only one Son of Pertion
Which is the only reason I feel- it is indeed talking about Satan. Context throws me off on this one: but I can not find anywhere (even the one predestined to betray him) that shows ANY are pre-judged.LOL people.No on our side of this debate is saying that we know Judas is in Hell. At best we could say things did not go well for him, anything more is just speculation.This prayer in John 17 occurs before Judas kills himself. Saying that Judas is "lost" at that point in time could mean many things, but he obviously was not "judged" yet as he is not even dead at that point. So there is no reason to argue against our view of who we say "the son of perdition" is in this verse with statements about judgement or Judas's eternal fate. So please do not confuse our view with saying we are judging Judas by claiming he is the son of perdition.Clearly Judas is in some sense "lost" at this point in time and we know it is said it would be better if he were never born. Besides as we agree that "son of perdition" in other occurances in the NT refers to other beings, so am not real sure what the big deal here is about our calling Judas "the son" refered to in John 17. IMO Verse 12 is very difficult to understand having Jesus say Satan is one of "them" which is defined as the disciples in verse 6. But if that works for you, ok.
 

Christina

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My problem with this is how can read it and just apply it to the Apostels yes they were of course included and even perhaps refered to in a verse or two but the entire chapter is Christ praying to God about his whole ministery and all believers of his believers. He was not talking to the Apostels10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. Do you see the Word ALL are the aposiels All his? and no one else? was Mary Magdeline a Apostel was Lazarus an apostels was his mother a apostel for that matter? 11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. You dont think this can refer to All who believed upon him all believers? 12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. While I was with them ...with who...the believers....I kept them in your name...And none of them are lost ...none of who ....the believers...Ive lost none...but the Son of PerditionSatan was an annoited cherb a believer until he fell ...Can any one say Judas was not a believer and that he ever stopped believing.. he in fact probably thought this is the son of God surely he can get out of these false charges easilyNo where are we ever told Judas didnt believe .. 13And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. So the apostels are the only ones he prays this for? 14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Are not we told that we will all be hated for his name sake how can you assume he was only talking to the apostels and not all the believers of that day and this for that matter
 

waquinas

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Kriss,Have you never spoke or written using a pronoun and someone asked who or whom you were talking about it? If I say "he" or "her" or "they" and your are not sure, the only way to know is ask. It is no different when reading. If one is in doubt you have to go back in the text to the last time the pronoun was defined.It is the same thing here. Context is everything. As Thomas and I have already shown, "they" and "them" are defined three times in this prayer. Verse 6 is the applicable definition before verse 12. I agree at the end and beginning of the prayer these pronouns have a much larger meaning, but even there it is inclusive of ALL BELIEVERS, not all creation. I could see how Satan would be included in all creation, but that definition for "they" and "them" you will not find anywhere in Chapter 17 of John. So I do not see how we can just insert our own definition for those pronouns when the writer gives us three. So no, I cannot agree that we can pick and choose our own definition for "them" and "they" to make a verse agree with our particular theology or understanding when the writer has Jesus defining those pronouns for us. Again if you feel it works for you to do that, it is ok with me.
 

treeoflife

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LOL...I just love this you guys are always disagreeing with me because I do not go with what the majority teach, for once I agree with the majority and you guys disagree with meIts like we have a famine on earth for the true Word of God
smile.gif
Oh yeah we do.I love you my brothers and sisters but you could be in danger of driving me crazy:)
I'm not personally trying to drive you crazy
smile.gif
.Another danger some get themselves into is the thinking that the truth cannot be whatever is popular (even among Christians). And, if a certain belief is popular, then the truth must be something contrary... because the truth is never popular. Some people get into the mindset that if most Christians believe a certain way... then that way can't be right... and the only reason the vast majority believes a certain way is they are in sin (because the truth is not popular). And, there must be something deeper that everyone else just is ignoring... because the truth is contrary to whatever is popular.Personally, I don't disagree or agree because something is popular or unpopular. I'm just stating what I can conclude from what I know of God's Word. I'll stand with or against whatever is popular depending on that.
 

Jordan

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(Kriss;58035)
Please show any scripture that says a man/anyone besides Satan was already ever judged to utter destruction/condemed forever. If there is none then there is only one Son of Pertion
Which is the only reason I feel- it is indeed talking about Satan. Context throws me off on this one: but I can not find anywhere (even the one predestined to betray him) that shows ANY are pre-judged.LOL people.No on our side of this debate is saying that we know Judas is in Hell. At best we could say things did not go well for him, anything more is just speculation.This prayer in John 17 occurs before Judas kills himself. Saying that Judas is "lost" at that point in time could mean many things, but he obviously was not "judged" yet as he is not even dead at that point. So there is no reason to argue against our view of who we say "the son of perdition" is in this verse with statements about judgement or Judas's eternal fate. So please do not confuse our view with saying we are judging Judas by claiming he is the son of perdition.Clearly Judas is in some sense "lost" at this point in time and we know it is said it would be better if he were never born. Besides as we agree that "son of perdition" in other occurances in the NT refers to other beings, so am not real sure what the big deal here is about our calling Judas "the son" refered to in John 17.IMO Verse 12 is very difficult to understand having Jesus say Satan is one of "them" which is defined as the disciples in verse 6. But if that works for you, ok.It is not that hard to understand IF we stop letting men and our flesh do the thinking for us... It's literally easy to know IF we let God interpret Himself and His words for you.
smile.gif
 

waquinas

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and no the apostles are not the only ones he prays for. Prior to verse 6 and after verse 20 He is obviously praying for a larger group, possibly even all believers (at all times).I think from verse 6 (were "they" and "them" is defined a second time) through verse 20 (where the pronouns change to a larger group of believers) the pronouns referes to all the Apostles including Judas. I do not have strong feelings against saying it could have a larger definition of all disciples during his ministry(which would of course include Mary and all the women). Neither of those definitions include Satan or any other part of creation.Could the ideas expressed by Jesus be applied or true if said about all believers? Yes, but in context you cannot just claim something is true as being said if the context excludes that it was the intended meaning. Example14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the worldCould that be said about all believers? YES. Was Jesus praying about all believers at that point in time? Not according to John, as he has Jesus defining who "they" and "them" are in verse 14 back in verse 6. Again this is really a tangent, because either way we cannot include Satan among the group of all believers. I guess that is unless you are saying at time, before his fall, that Satan believed. But you already recognized yourself that Jesus is speaking about his ministry here on earth, so Satan's past would not apply.
 

tomwebster

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waquinas,I have no idea what you are saying half of the time. I just want you and every one to know what I am saying.I am saying Satan IS the son of perdition. Satan IS the ONLY son of perdition. Perdition is another name for Satan. Judas is NOT the son of perdition. Judas is not in Hell, fact is no one is in hell right now, unless you want to call being on the wrong side of the gulf (Luke 16)hell. I believe Judas was forgiven and will be in his seat with the 24 in heaven.
 

treeoflife

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So to your opinion and others, Christ is not Saviour of the world?
No, I just believe Jesus is referring to Judas.I will add that I am not even making a strong doctrinal stance on this.You are proud and make baseless conclusions based on your limited information, and your pride. Please stop, thank you.
 

waquinas

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It is not that hard to understand IF we stop letting men and our flesh do the thinking for us... It's literally easy to know IF we let God interpret Himself and His words for you.
smile.gif

I would suggest that John in God's Word has clearly defined for us in John 17 verse 2, 6 and 20 what group of people are intended to be understood by the pronouns in the verses that follow those definitions. If someone is suggesting an alternate definition for those pronouns which is not part of John 17, then that individual would not be letting God interpret His Words and people following that persons understanding would be letting men and our flesh lead them. Some things are clear in the Bible, this is one of those cases.
 

Christina

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4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. 6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Men is just as easily disicples followers as it is just 12 apostels this is mans narrow view not Gods and pronouns in scripture are not always the same as English so if you are basing your entire reasong on pronouns be very careful
 
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