The Restrainer

Lady Crosstalk · May 13, 2019

brakelite said:
I can't argue that you should cleave to God word. Absolutely. Can you offer anything from that word that would convince me that the planet will be liveable after the second coming? I ask because I am aware that there is to be a new heavens and a new earth... We all agree on that right? But the question is when? Amils of course will have is believe it could be tomorrow, but you and I both would disagree with that eh. But I see the new creation as being at the end of the millennium... Not at the second coming, in fact it is the ravages of the earth and the pollutions man had caused that require the new earth isn't it. But I only see one new creation in the Bible... Not two.

In my opinion, that is because the Millennium is preceded by a restoration rather than a completely new creation (which will come after the Final Judgment, AKA "the Great White Throne Judgment" and the "Sheep and Goat Judgment" of the nations). There will be mortal believers (both Jew and Gentile) who make it through the Tribulation (do the math from the Book of Revelation). Where would they go, if the earth was destroyed and recreated by God? We already know that "flesh and blood [that is mortals] cannot inherit the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven (the only one there is at present or even will be through the Tribulation). So, they would not be able to go to the New Jerusalem in heaven, because that is the place where the resurrected believers go--unless you believe that God will rapture or kill them all and resurrect them (and there are significant problems with this interpretation).

Really, the simple answer is restoration of the earth, following all of the destruction and death of the Tribulation. We have a model of this in the restoration of the Temple after the desecration performed by Antiochus IV Epiphanes. There will ultimately be a new heaven and a new earth but it will not happen until after the 1,000 years have elapsed and Satan is loosed to go out and deceive the nations once more. Fire will come down from heaven and devour all of God's wicked enemies. Then Satan, along with death and Hades will join the Antichrist and the False Prophet in the Lake of Fire and heaven will come to earth for all eternity.

Phoneman777 · May 13, 2019

CoreIssue said:
I answered you.

If ignoring other's points were a paying job, you'd have a fleet of Bugatti Veyrons.

Nancy · May 13, 2019

Phoneman777 said:
He's going to come and claim he's Christ for sure. Many people will be decieved because they don't read Paul's words that Christ will not touch the Earth, but will elevate the faithful to Him in the clouds.

Matthew 24:27 says "as lightning cometh out of the East and shineth unto the West, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be". Notice, it doesn't say, "As lightning bursts forth from the clouds and blasts a crater in the ground, so shall the coming..." But, I'm sure you know that, as smart as you are, Nancy

"it doesn't say, "As lightning bursts forth from the clouds and blasts a crater in the ground, so shall the coming..."
Lol...you do have a way with words Phone guy!

And, don't know why you keep saying I am so smart as I really am not! I'm not stupid (made a few stupid choices tho, lol) but I am of average intelligence, nothing more! But thanks for the encouragement ♥

Phoneman777 · May 13, 2019

Naomi25 said:
These are all really good points, and I grant them to you.
Except, I still hold out on the last one! Regardless of WHY the ECF are 'unanimous' in belief...at least a seeming majority, it is still unwise and just plain outside of wise practice, to build a biblical doctrine on something that is not found IN scripture. Building a "I'm fairly darn sure it's this" on it...fine. But resting doctrine on it? Nope...sorry, you're not gonna get me!

Thanks Nancy

With regard to the Restrainer, I do sometimes come off as one who thinks it's Gospel to call the Roman Empire the Restrainer, which is not in Scripture. However, in my mind I'm thinking of all the other evidence which places the rise of Antichrist back where Scripture says it occurs: "I considered the (ten) horns, and lo there came up among them another Little Horn, before whom three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots". The ten barbarian tribes arose out of the ashes of the fallen Roman Empire and the papacy arose up among those ten, and uprooted three - the Vandals, the Heruli and the Ostrogoths, supposedly because, according to the papacy, they didn't believe in the divinity of Christ. Actually, history tells us that these horns got their doctrine from the NORTHERN trade routes which came from Palestine and is where the Byzantian Bible MSS were maintained, and these horns weren't "Arian", they were "anti-Roman Catholic". Do you know where "Vandalism" comes from? Becasue the Vandals were known for destroying the pagan statues that the Bishop of Rome was setting up in the churches - they knew John said, "Little children, keep yourselves from idols."

So, for me and Historicists in general, there can't be any other candidate than that which prevented the rise of Papal Rome, which was Pagan Rome. But, we can agree to disagree

Lady Crosstalk · May 13, 2019

friend of said:
Right, that's the crux of what my disagreement would be. Satan is lawless. Lawlessness is by definition unrestrained.

Also, there is the matter of Matthew 12:26--->"...if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then shall his kingdom stand?" Why would Satan restrain the Antichrist?

Phoneman777 · May 13, 2019

Naomi25 said:
Forgive me, but...how can we see 'right away' that the papacy is the prime candidate for Antichrist? I may just be lacking some essential historical knowledge here, but in any case...I'm not seeing a clear lining up between "little horn from ten horns" and a fallen Roman Empire.

You're such a gentle soul! If I come of as arrogant, believe me I am not in the least! I can't help it if I mingle a little of what some people today call "toxic masculinity" with my contention for "the faith once delivered to the saints".

Without posting a long read, suffice it to say that if we start in Daniel 2 and work our way through the rest of Daniel and into Revelation, the four kingdoms which have the most impact on the history of God's people are Babylon, M.P., Greece, and Rome. Daniel 7 clearly says "the fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom (Rome), and this beast has TEN HORNS. When the fourth beast fell, the ten horns arose, which were the ten barbarian nations which evolved into Europe, and which were seen standing when the dust from Pagan Rome settled:

Anglo Saxons - England
Allemani - Germany
Visigoths - Spain
Francs - France
Suevi - Portugal
Burgundians - Swiss
Lombards - Italy
Vandals - EXTINCT
Heruli - EXTINCT
Ostrogoths - EXTINCT

Daniel says, "I considered the (ten) horns, and behold, there came up among them another Little Horn, before whom three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots..." All agree that this Little Horn is very much Antichrist - it's depicted as blasphemous (which the Bible says means "claiming to be God and claiming the power to forgive sin"), persecuting, self-exalting, etc. The "three horns plucked up by the roots" were these extinct nations that were totally destroyed by the influence of the church of Rome because these opposed the church, and once they were gone, the Papacy stood completely unopposed and ascended the former throne of the caesars and united church and state...which is when the most ferocious persecution of God's faithful broke out to the point where true Christians who opposed Rome's blasphemous dogmas were driven from public view and remained hidden for over 1,000 years of papal Antichrist darkness.

Therefore, the Antichrist had to have arisen waaaaayy back in the 6th century after the fall of Rome and among the ten horns.

Phoneman777 · May 13, 2019

Nancy said:
And, during John's time, I tend to believe Caesar Nero was the "restrainer"...spoken as such by John perhaps to avoid persecution if he uses Nero's name outright? So, could there be a connection between the office, or title of "Caesar" and Bishop of Rome, or the papacy?

I believe Caesar was among the others of Pagan Rome which restrained the rise of the papacy, because as long as the Caesars sat on the throne, the Bishop of Rome was subordinate to him...after all, Caesar was a "god" and worshiped accordingly. Only when the succession of Caesars came to an end could the succession of Popes begin to rule in the same manner as Caesar - over BOTH secular AND religious matters.

I can (sadly) picture a day when the governments seizes all of our bibles and replaces them with the "Codex Sinaiticus".
Went to a bible study years back and it was on Ecumenism. As the years have passed, I see it coming on the horizon more and more. And, I know Christians who just love to watch some of these charlatans on TV...they will follow them right over a cliff as, they too are all over this kumbaya religion...how can anyone think we serve the same God as these other false religions? SMH

Nancy girl, we've GOT to hold the line and stand for truth. Just as the Climate Crisis agenda people know the more the educational system dumbs down kids, the easier it is to indoctrinate them with lies, so it is that with each passing generation in the church, the young people seem to keep erasing and redrawing the line closer and closer to the edge of the cliff.

Phoneman777 · May 13, 2019

CoreIssue said:
You gave me SDA doctrine.

Every example is from Scripture, and you know it.

BTW, I see that $100 is still on the table. Now, it seems to me that if someone challenged me to back up what I say and claim $100, I'd jump on that in a New York minute...but that's just me.

Phoneman777 · May 13, 2019

CoreIssue said:
Jesuit Futurism

I already know what you believe, so you don't have to post links to it.

Phoneman777 · May 13, 2019

Nancy said:
"it doesn't say, "As lightning bursts forth from the clouds and blasts a crater in the ground, so shall the coming..."
Lol...you do have a way with words Phone guy!
And, don't know why you keep saying I am so smart as I really am not! I'm not stupid (made a few stupid choices tho, lol) but I am of average intelligence, nothing more! But thanks for the encouragement ♥

I'll bet you tell that to all the guys

Lady Crosstalk · May 13, 2019

It seems safest to say that the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit. He was sent to indwell believers, but another main function of the Holy Spirit: "And when He comes, He will convict the world of its sin, and of God’s righteousness, and of the coming judgment. The world’s sin is that it refuses to believe in me. Righteousness is available because I go to the Father, and you will see me no more. Judgment will come because the ruler of this world has already been judged."(Matthew 16:8-11). The Holy Spirit may step out of the way because that work has been completed and the Father and the Lamb will then proceed to pour out wrath on the inhabitants of the world. There is absolutely no evidence that those "who belong to the world" are anything but rebellious toward God til the very end, even though they know where their suffering originates and for what reason.

Nancy · May 13, 2019

Phoneman777 said:
I'll bet you tell that to all the guys

Yes! But then, I say it to my sister too

CoreIssue · May 13, 2019

Phoneman777 said:
I already know what you believe, so you don't have to post links to it.

The link proves what you are claiming is a lie.

Phoneman777 · May 13, 2019

Nancy said:
Yes! But then, I say it to my sister too

Phoneman777 · May 13, 2019

CoreIssue said:
The link proves what you are claiming is a lie.

Oh, c'mon, CI, you don't believe in a "last seven years trib" antichrist that coming in the future?

Phoneman777 · May 13, 2019

Nancy said:
Yes! But then, I say it to my sister too

I ask God to help me make truth clear. Words means things and so often when we read the Bible - myself included - we miss things. I had the privilege to preach in church last weekend and I gave a Mother's Day message.

Title was "Composite Parent", and it was about how the Bible describes God's love for us from both the male and female perspective. It was so important for me to get across to the people that not only "as a father pitieth his children, so doth the Lord pitieth them that fear Him", but also, "Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? Yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee. Behold, I have graven thee on the palms of My hands."

Told them about the little Florida boy who was attacked by a gator and it was trying to drag him in the water from the bank. His mom heard him yelling and raced out and dug her fingernails in his arms and held on tight and screamed while the gator had him by the leg. A neighbor heard the commotion and ran with his gun and shot the gator dead. The news media came to interview the boy in the hospital, and while they were astonished at all the cuts and stitches on his legs, he said, "Let me show you something else" and he rolled up his sleeves and showed them his arms and proudly said, "These are from when my mom grabbed me and wouldn't let me go!"

I told them that little boy was wounded because his mom wound't let him go, but God loves us so much that He Himself was wounded because He wouldn't let us go. Nothing like a mother's love for her children and seems to me it's the closest example we've got to compare to His love for us.

Nancy · May 13, 2019

Phoneman777 said:
I ask God to help me make truth clear. Words means things and so often when we read the Bible - myself included - we miss things. I had the privilege to preach in church last weekend and I gave a Mother's Day message.

Title was "Composite Parent", and it was about how the Bible describes God's love for us from both the male and female perspective. It was so important for me to get across to the people that not only "as a father pitieth his children, so doth the Lord pitieth them that fear Him", but also, "Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? Yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee. Behold, I have graven thee on the palms of My hands."

Told them about the little Florida boy who was attacked by a gator and it was trying to drag him in the water from the bank. His mom heard him yelling and raced out and dug her fingernails in his arms and held on tight and screamed while the gator had him by the leg. A neighbor heard the commotion and ran with his gun and shot the gator dead. The news media came to interview the boy in the hospital, and while they were astonished at all the cuts and stitches on his legs, he said, "Let me show you something else" and he rolled up his sleeves and showed them his arms and proudly said, "These are from when my mom grabbed me and wouldn't let me go!"

I told them that little boy was wounded because his mom wound't let him go, but God loves us so much that He Himself was wounded because He wouldn't let us go. Nothing like a mother's love for her children and seems to me it's the closest example we've got to compare to His love for us.

Oh wow, that is awesome Phone! What an honor for you to give the Mother's Day sermon. And, I do believe I heard about something like this a long time ago in the news. Great comparison. ♥

CoreIssue · May 13, 2019

Phoneman777 said:
Oh, c'mon, CI, you don't believe in a "last seven years trib" antichrist that coming in the future?

I absolutely do.

The SDA is a cult.

Naomi25 · May 13, 2019

charity said:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:
only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
And then shall that Wicked be revealed,
whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth,
and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan
with all power and signs and lying wonders,' ... '
(2 Thessalonians 2:6-9)

Hello @Naomi25,

I would like to concentrate on this verse a moment.

It is obvious that 'someone' or 'something' is restraining or keeping check the revelation of the man of sin, and there have been several explanations given for this, but there is one which has a scriptural basis for it, which the others lack. Firstly the words, 'withholdeth' in verse six and 'letteth' in verse seven, are both translated from the same verb:- Katecho, which means 'to hold firmly'.or, 'to hold fast'. It occurs 19 times in the New Testament (eg., Romans 1:18; Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 6:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:21; Philemon 13; Hebrews 3:6; Hebrews 3:14; Hebrews 10:23).

1) Who holds fast the man of sin?
2) Who is it that hold something fast?

* The answer to the first question is found in Revelation 9:1,2, and Revelation 11:7. The man of sin is held fast by the 'bottomless pit' or 'abyss' until the 'appointed season', or the time of his manifestation to the world.

Hi Chris, thanks for the reply!

But...if the Man of Sin is being held in the bottomless pit, wouldn't that imply he was demonic in nature? Aren't we to believe that the Man who sets himself up to oppose God, while coming with Satan's authority and power, is still just a man?

* The answer to the second question is found in Satan, who holds fast to his possessions in the aerial regions (Ephesians 2:2) until he is taken out of the way, or removed. How this happens Revelation 12:7-17 describes. There is a war in heaven: Michael and his angels fight against Satan and the fallen angels under his control, and the Deceiver is cast down to the earth with terrible results, leading to the Great Tribulation. When this happens, as a last desperate attempt, Satan calls up his man from the abyss, and for a short time he dominates the whole world, Satan receiving, world worship through the Beast.

So...You're saying here that you don't see this passage as saying there is a restraining force here on earth preventing this Man of Sin coming forth...you see his coming as a natural consequence of Satan's being 'removed' from heaven?

* Isaiah 11:4 says, 'He shall smite the earth (or the oppressor) with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips shall He slay the wicked (one)'.

* It takes the glory of the Lord's Coming and His almighty power to destroy this superhuman being. It will be beyond the capacity of man to do this. Daniel 11:44-45, deals with his end, but gives no details as to how it is achieved. It takes 2 Thessalonians to reveal that.

* In relation to this 'lawless one', Paul says, 'Even he, whose coming (parousia) is according to the working of Satan, with all power, and signs and wonders of a lie (literally)'

* Satan is no creator, but he is an imitator. He travesties the truths of Christianity to ensnare and deceive the whole world at the time of the end. Christ's death, resurrection and coming again are copied by Satan acting through the Beast. See Revelation 13:3, and Revelation 17:8.

I think, while you have made several very good points, you have also raised a few that hinder the idea of this 'Man of Sin' as being a 'supernatural' being. No...Satan is NOT a creator. And beyond that, I'm not sure that demonic creatures can step onto the stage of humanity and play out human roles. If they could, why have they not done that a million times by now? Why must they settle for possession, influencing, seducation to their powers...but always ultimately acting through human hands.
I think this 'Man', when he comes, will be human. In a way, it's the ultimate (Satan would think, anyway) slap in the face to God...his own creation, made in his own image, claiming to be 'christ'. But while he will be human, he will be protected and empowered by Satan.

* Even the words of 2 Thessalonians 2:9 describing the advent of the lawless one are used directly of the Holy Spirit and His miraculous gifts: yes, Satan uses imitation and counterfeit in order to deceive.

* These Satanic happenings are the climax of the evil system described in the Word of God as 'the lie', originating from the Deceiver at his fall, and in direct conflict with God and the truth as personified in Christ. Those who think that miracles are necessarily a proof that a deed is of Divine origin are going to fare very badly at this period of history. Satan, to a certain extent can work miracles, but they are lying miracles with one object - to deceive. Hear the Lord's warning in Matthew 24:24.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

We're in agreement here!

Naomi25 · May 13, 2019

Phoneman777 said:
Thanks Nancy With regard to the Restrainer, I do sometimes come off as one who thinks it's Gospel to call the Roman Empire the Restrainer, which is not in Scripture. However, in my mind I'm thinking of all the other evidence which places the rise of Antichrist back where Scripture says it occurs: "I considered the (ten) horns, and lo there came up among them another Little Horn, before whom three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots". The ten barbarian tribes arose out of the ashes of the fallen Roman Empire and the papacy arose up among those ten, and uprooted three - the Vandals, the Heruli and the Ostrogoths, supposedly because, according to the papacy, they didn't believe in the divinity of Christ. Actually, history tells us that these horns got their doctrine from the NORTHERN trade routes which came from Palestine and is where the Byzantian Bible MSS were maintained, and these horns weren't "Arian", they were "anti-Roman Catholic". Do you know where "Vandalism" comes from? Becasue the Vandals were known for destroying the pagan statues that the Bishop of Rome was setting up in the churches - they knew John said, "Little children, keep yourselves from idols."

So, for me and Historicists in general, there can't be any other candidate than that which prevented the rise of Papal Rome, which was Pagan Rome. But, we can agree to disagree

Well...it's not that I'm disagreeing, I'm not there yet...am trying to do some research. I suppose all I'm saying is that even once I've reached my conclusion, I'm probably not going to put as much weight on it as I do on the doctrine I get from scripture. And that's fine...it's okay to have beliefs outside of biblical proofs that we're fairly certain still hold weight. But...nothing holds the weight of God's word!

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