Faith! Works! Obedience!

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aspen

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What are these terms we throw around and debate over ad nauseam? Why do many pit Paul, James, and Peter against one another? Paul saw it happening and warned us against it.

For me, I agree with Paul (and all the other writers) when he said there is no division in Christ - all the writers, apostles, disciples and followers are pointing to Christ, who is pointing to the Father, who is in fact, pointing back to Christ!

True faith is suspending your disbelief - your internal critic, AND loving outwardly even when your inner critic is screaming BS!

(I cringe when people declare, with pride and self satisfaction that they have an alert and tuned BS meter......yikes! Makes me wonder how they get out of bed)

True works is loving outwardly because you are following the Spirit instead of you internal critic.

False Faith is barking your knowledge about Jesus, without lifting a finger
Likewise, false works it running around looking busy for personal glory

True faith and true works cannot be separated - only false faith and false works stand alone.

Obedience is loving God and neighbor through service - it is faith/works

Love is the complete package - it erases all sin....like a sealant waterproofs. It is the double edge sword that cuts across all dichotomies.

Christians that like to revel in the war between God and the Devil are in danger of falling into the same trap that the Jewish people did when they expected a warrior Messiah, which ended up in their rejection of Christ. I am not claiming that the war between good and evil doesn’t exist, but our participation in that war is loving others. Yes, Jesus is coming back to judge the world, but it doesn’t change our role, at all.

Some Christians laugh and scoff at “wimpy, snowflake Christians” who promote flitting around and loving people who don’t deserve it and calling it following Christ. Of course, true love is not for snowflakes....it is serving others without reservation and without judgment. It is hospice work for the world - sitting with terminal illness and loving the person in spite of the behaviors you disapprove of.....it is visiting the prisoners of sin like an AA volunteer - loving the person with a message of freedom in spite of their crimes.

Love is our calling, our role, and our sanctification. We love because Christ loves us and we were created to do so.
 

frogoon789

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What are these terms we throw around and debate over ad nauseam? Why do many pit Paul, James, and Peter against one another? Paul saw it happening and warned us against it.

For me, I agree with Paul (and all the other writers) when he said there is no division in Christ - all the writers, apostles, disciples and followers are pointing to Christ, who is pointing to the Father, who is in fact, pointing back to Christ!

True faith is suspending your disbelief - your internal critic, AND loving outwardly even when your inner critic is screaming BS!

(I cringe when people declare, with pride and self satisfaction that they have an alert and tuned BS meter......yikes! Makes me wonder how they get out of bed)

True works is loving outwardly because you are following the Spirit instead of you internal critic.

False Faith is barking your knowledge about Jesus, without lifting a finger
Likewise, false works it running around looking busy for personal glory

True faith and true works cannot be separated - only false faith and false works stand alone.

Obedience is loving God and neighbor through service - it is faith/works

Love is the complete package - it erases all sin....like a sealant waterproofs. It is the double edge sword that cuts across all dichotomies.

Christians that like to revel in the war between God and the Devil are in danger of falling into the same trap that the Jewish people did when they expected a warrior Messiah, which ended up in their rejection of Christ. I am not claiming that the war between good and evil doesn’t exist, but our participation in that war is loving others. Yes, Jesus is coming back to judge the world, but it doesn’t change our role, at all.

Some Christians laugh and scoff at “wimpy, snowflake Christians” who promote flitting around and loving people who don’t deserve it and calling it following Christ. Of course, true love is not for snowflakes....it is serving others without reservation and without judgment. It is hospice work for the world - sitting with terminal illness and loving the person in spite of the behaviors you disapprove of.....it is visiting the prisoners of sin like an AA volunteer - loving the person with a message of freedom in spite of their crimes.

Love is our calling, our role, and our sanctification. We love because Christ loves us and we were created to do so.

If you are saying the Bible supports "once saved always saved", i agree. If you are saying we have to maintain our salvation to be saved from eternal suffering i would disagree with that.

Here are some questions:

1. How does the church decide if someones love for their fellow man is sufficient for eternal salvation from eternal suffering?

2. If the church concludes someone does not have enough love for his fellow man, can the church give a lower punishment then a eternal punishment?

3. Is not all these things decisions that Jesus Christ has to make?
 
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VictoryinJesus

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What are these terms we throw around and debate over ad nauseam? Why do many pit Paul, James, and Peter against one another? Paul saw it happening and warned us against it.

For me, I agree with Paul (and all the other writers) when he said there is no division in Christ - all the writers, apostles, disciples and followers are pointing to Christ, who is pointing to the Father, who is in fact, pointing back to Christ!

True faith is suspending your disbelief - your internal critic, AND loving outwardly even when your inner critic is screaming BS!

(I cringe when people declare, with pride and self satisfaction that they have an alert and tuned BS meter......yikes! Makes me wonder how they get out of bed)

True works is loving outwardly because you are following the Spirit instead of you internal critic.

False Faith is barking your knowledge about Jesus, without lifting a finger
Likewise, false works it running around looking busy for personal glory

True faith and true works cannot be separated - only false faith and false works stand alone.

Obedience is loving God and neighbor through service - it is faith/works

Love is the complete package - it erases all sin....like a sealant waterproofs. It is the double edge sword that cuts across all dichotomies.

Christians that like to revel in the war between God and the Devil are in danger of falling into the same trap that the Jewish people did when they expected a warrior Messiah, which ended up in their rejection of Christ. I am not claiming that the war between good and evil doesn’t exist, but our participation in that war is loving others. Yes, Jesus is coming back to judge the world, but it doesn’t change our role, at all.

Some Christians laugh and scoff at “wimpy, snowflake Christians” who promote flitting around and loving people who don’t deserve it and calling it following Christ. Of course, true love is not for snowflakes....it is serving others without reservation and without judgment. It is hospice work for the world - sitting with terminal illness and loving the person in spite of the behaviors you disapprove of.....it is visiting the prisoners of sin like an AA volunteer - loving the person with a message of freedom in spite of their crimes.

Love is our calling, our role, and our sanctification. We love because Christ loves us and we were created to do so.

Your post has me considering 1 Corinthians 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

Knowledge puffs up. Charity builds.
Been thinking a lot lately about edification. At first I’m wondering what Knowledge or Charity has to do with touching things offered to idols. The title of your thread is “Faith! Works! obedience!” And maybe the last of that passage has all three 1 Corinthians 8:11-13 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? [12] But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. [13] Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

How often do we carelessly jump at the opportunity to wound a brother for whom Christ died through our knowledge? Knowledge puffs up. Charity builds. (Only sharing this because I’ve been considering has my life become more about knowledge than charity.)
 
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aspen

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Your post has me considering 1 Corinthians 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

Knowledge puffs up. Charity builds.
Been thinking a lot lately about edification. At first I’m wondering what Knowledge or Charity has to do with touching things offered to idols. The title of your thread is “Faith! Works! obedience!” And maybe the last of that passage has all three 1 Corinthians 8:11-13 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? [12] But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. [13] Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

How often do we carelessly jump at the opportunity to wound a brother for whom Christ died through our knowledge? Knowledge puffs up. Charity builds. (Only sharing this because I’ve been considering has my life become more about knowledge than charity.)

Interesting. I can relate to living in the safety of my own head....it becomes easier for me to pretend that knowledge passes for living the Christian life.

Surprisingly, I just read the book of 1 Corinthians today. Like Paul said, it is a balance between participating in a worldly behavior (eating meat offered to idols) so as not to offend and create distance between self and possible convert verses abstaining for the sake of being a good witness to other Christians and risking offense...

I was invited to a Sikh wedding years ago, and part of the ceremony involved the guests eating this gooey, sticking, honey/flour mixture that was slapped into our hands, which was offered as a sort of communion. We were told before the ceremony that the Sikh people would be deeply offended if we refused. I struggled with what to do during the entire 2 hour wedding - like Paul told the Corinthians, we know the god of the Sikhs to be false and either demonic or nothing, so do we just go along with it or do we offend everyone present and refuse? I was young and decided to go along with it; today, I would have excused myself from that portion of the ceremony.
 
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aspen

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If you are saying the Bible supports "once saved always saved", i agree.

I am not and I don’t

If you are saying we have to maintain our salvation to be saved from eternal suffering i would disagree with that.

Jesus died for our salvation, we are not in charge of it. Disagreement with the doctrine of OSAS is not equivalent to claiming that we are saving ourselves.

1. How does the church decide if someones love for their fellow man is sufficient for eternal salvation from eternal suffering?

The Church does not judge the heart. If you are talking about the Catholic Churches’ practice of naming Saints, it is only a recognition of Christ’s work on the cross and in the life of individuals- it is far from an exhaustive list.

2. If the church concludes someone does not have enough love for his fellow man, can the church give a lower punishment then a eternal punishment?

No human apart from Christ is without sin, therefore, no one has “enough love for his fellow man”.

3. Is not all these things decisions that Jesus Christ has to make?

Yes
 

Windmillcharge

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I agree with Paul (and all the other writers) when he said there is no division in Christ - all the writers, apostles, disciples and followers are pointing to Christ, who is pointing to the Father, who is in fact, pointing back to Christ!

The problem is that we enjoy a good squable and our tribalism following Paul, appollous etc makes it all it easy to find something to squable over.

We are Jesus's saved sinners, saved by him and kept by him with hopefully a desire to obey him and follow him.

Christianity when lived out by its followers has transformed the world and if we had the courage to obey Jesus will by Gods grace do so again.

It is too easy here in the west to coast as Christians, to be socal chameleons.
 
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aspen

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The problem is that we enjoy a good squable and our tribalism following Paul, appollous etc makes it all it easy to find something to squable over.

We are Jesus's saved sinners, saved by him and kept by him with hopefully a desire to obey him and follow him.

Christianity when lived out by its followers has transformed the world and if we had the courage to obey Jesus will by Gods grace do so again.

It is too easy here in the west to coast as Christians, to be socal chameleons.

Unfortunately you are right about squabbling.....fundamentalists dissecting ever letter.....progressives protesting every perceived misstep.......as long as we can prove ourselves righteous and holy by stepping on our brothers and sister we are living the dream
 

Windmillcharge

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Unfortunately you are right about squabbling.....fundamentalists dissecting ever letter.....progressives protesting every perceived misstep.......as long as we can prove ourselves righteous and holy by stepping on our brothers and sister we are living the dream


There is also a serious side to this.
Posts are made that are wrong either because of ignborance or because of the intent to teach falsehood.

Sometimes those of us who like to squable jump far to hard on the ignorant and not hard enough or the decivers.
I'm assuming a deciever cannot be persuaded to change.

How we respond to these post is telling.
 
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marks

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How often do we carelessly jump at the opportunity to wound a brother for whom Christ died through our knowledge? Knowledge puffs up. Charity builds. (Only sharing this because I’ve been considering has my life become more about knowledge than charity.)

Hi ViJ,

Or even to carelessly wound?

I think we need to be careful to examine ourselves to try to know, in the Spirit, when we are not posting in love, that is, in the sincere and heartfelt desire to help someone, to give a gift.

Much love!
Mark
 
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aspen

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Hi ViJ,

Or even to carelessly wound?

I think we need to be careful to examine ourselves to try to know, in the Spirit, when we are not posting in love, that is, in the sincere and heartfelt desire to help someone, to give a gift.

Much love!
Mark

I think there is a distinction between faith and doctrine. Challenging doctrine is interesting and can be a learning experience. Challenging a person’s faith, even if you believe it is misguided faith is not helpful and it can be damaging. Faith is given by God and should not be destroyed in order to score points.

People who over-identify with the doctrine they place their faith in, can be toxic witnesses because they take disagreements personally and often mock, scoff and dismiss others for not allowing them to dominate the conversation and assert their will and understanding of doctrine onto the people they are trying to mount.

Conversely, people who are metacognitive can separate themselves from their beliefs long enough to examine them, learn from others and share their understanding of the doctrine they place their faith in.

Hopefully, witnessing our most important relationship with others can be a shared experience that happens within an established, close relationship, between two people who are not over-identified with their belief system.
 
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marks

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I think there is a distinction between faith and doctrine. Challenging doctrine is interesting and can be a learning experience. Challenging a person’s faith, even if you believe it is misguided faith is not helpful and it can be damaging. Faith is given by God and should not be destroyed in order to score points.

People who over-identify with the doctrine they place their faith in, can be toxic witnesses because they take disagreements personally and often mock, scoff and dismiss others for not allowing them to dominate the conversation and assert their will and understanding of doctrine onto the people they are trying to mount.

Conversely, people who are metacognitive can separate themselves from their beliefs long enough to examine them, learn from others and share their understanding of the doctrine they place their faith in.

Hopefully, witnessing our most important relationship with others can be a shared experience that happens within an established, close relationship, between two people who are not over-identified with their belief system.

Very well stated, imho.

Feeling the urge to mock, scoff, and dismiss others is a good signal that the flesh is beginning to assert itself, and that it's time to rethink what I'm doing.

My hope always for a Christian Forum is that it will provide the close and safe place wherein we can build this relationship as community, completely identified by our new life in Christ, bound together by love, and building each other in love.

I think of Ephesians 4, it seems to put coming to a common doctrine before the body building itself in love. Christian forums tend to me to prove this point, as love takes a back seat to doctrinal disputes. So I wonder, how do we come to a common doctrine?

Much love!
 
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Nondenom40

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What are these terms we throw around and debate over ad nauseam? Why do many pit Paul, James, and Peter against one another? Paul saw it happening and warned us against it.

For me, I agree with Paul (and all the other writers) when he said there is no division in Christ - all the writers, apostles, disciples and followers are pointing to Christ, who is pointing to the Father, who is in fact, pointing back to Christ!

True faith is suspending your disbelief - your internal critic, AND loving outwardly even when your inner critic is screaming BS!

(I cringe when people declare, with pride and self satisfaction that they have an alert and tuned BS meter......yikes! Makes me wonder how they get out of bed)

True works is loving outwardly because you are following the Spirit instead of you internal critic.

False Faith is barking your knowledge about Jesus, without lifting a finger
Likewise, false works it running around looking busy for personal glory

True faith and true works cannot be separated - only false faith and false works stand alone.

Obedience is loving God and neighbor through service - it is faith/works

Love is the complete package - it erases all sin....like a sealant waterproofs. It is the double edge sword that cuts across all dichotomies.

Christians that like to revel in the war between God and the Devil are in danger of falling into the same trap that the Jewish people did when they expected a warrior Messiah, which ended up in their rejection of Christ. I am not claiming that the war between good and evil doesn’t exist, but our participation in that war is loving others. Yes, Jesus is coming back to judge the world, but it doesn’t change our role, at all.

Some Christians laugh and scoff at “wimpy, snowflake Christians” who promote flitting around and loving people who don’t deserve it and calling it following Christ. Of course, true love is not for snowflakes....it is serving others without reservation and without judgment. It is hospice work for the world - sitting with terminal illness and loving the person in spite of the behaviors you disapprove of.....it is visiting the prisoners of sin like an AA volunteer - loving the person with a message of freedom in spite of their crimes.

Love is our calling, our role, and our sanctification. We love because Christ loves us and we were created to do so.
Just a couple of things.
A. There is no contradiction between Paul, James or Peter. All 'alleged' differences are reconciled easily.
B. My 'internal BS meter' i.e. discernment is the Holy Spirit guiding me. Now that might not be what you intended so sorry, if thats not what you meant. But we do have the Holy Spirit to give us a proper direction, guidance...
C. We had this discussion just last week in sunday school. "Snow flake christian was unknown in the first century, well not tolerated...i.e. Paul and Mark initially. Paul willingly went into various towns knowing he was going to be beaten, stoned, beaten with rods, put in stocks....and went anyway! THAT is picking up our cross and following Jesus. We see the danger and walk forward anyway. No room for snowflakes there. We are called to press on...not look back.
 

farouk

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Just a couple of things.
A. There is no contradiction between Paul, James or Peter. All 'alleged' differences are reconciled easily.
B. My 'internal BS meter' i.e. discernment is the Holy Spirit guiding me. Now that might not be what you intended so sorry, if thats not what you meant. But we do have the Holy Spirit to give us a proper direction, guidance...
C. We had this discussion just last week in sunday school. "Snow flake christian was unknown in the first century, well not tolerated...i.e. Paul and Mark initially. Paul willingly went into various towns knowing he was going to be beaten, stoned, beaten with rods, put in stocks....and went anyway! THAT is picking up our cross and following Jesus. We see the danger and walk forward anyway. No room for snowflakes there. We are called to press on...not look back.
Ephesians 2.10 follows on from Ephesians 2.9. :)