The false gospel of grace

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justbyfaith

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the problems with KJV-only. Whenever it is in error,

The kjv is never in error.

Your misinterpretation points to one of the problems with KJV-only. Whenever it is in error, and I believe it errs if it refers to justification (a once-for-all sacrifice that makes us legally perfect) as "sanctification". A sound systematic theology must account for ALL statements in Scripture--even those which appear, at first glance, to be contradictory. We can have full confidence that any "contradictions" will yield to further study.

But for you, further study is done in a translation that is biased against the requirement for holiness in scripture. If you understand that the kjv is just as inspired, if not more so, than your watered-down translations, then you would be able to see that the kjv brings out very nicely this requirement of holiness, more than the others. To discount this requirement, you would have to discount the validity of the kjv entirely. However, to do so would be to denounce 2 Timothy 3:16.

2Ti 3:16, All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

It is improper to form a theology and impose it on the Bible.

Amen sister. However, I believe that this is what many people do who read the watered-down translations. In all actuality, the translators of them have imposed their theology on their translations.

When I read my kjv Bible, I do not impose my theology on what I read...I take at face value what it is saying to me at any given moment.

I fear that the creation of the watered-down translations has only served to bring division to the body of Christ; if those who read the watered-down translations are even in the body of Christ (I'll give them the benefit of the doubt).
 
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Lady Crosstalk

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2Co 7:1, Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
"Perfecting" as in ongoing process.



You are looking at it in the wrong translation...in fact, you have rejected the kjv and heaped up for yourself a teacher in the translator of a different version, to tell you what your itching ears want to hear.
Congratulations. You have managed to puff yourself up in rude condescension and insulted a child of God in the process. The "itching ears" phrase is for unbelievers. You have thoroughly misapplied it and been quite nasty to boot. Do you think that qualifies as sinless?


Yet John also says later that the commandments of the Lord are not burdensome/grievous (1 John 5:3).
And so they are not--I have never found them to be so.
 
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justbyfaith

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But only Jesus Christ was morally perfect while in this world--His name is above all names.

Indeed, all have sinned and come short of the glory of the Lord...however, our sins can be washed away in the blood of Christ and we filled with the Holy Spirit so that we no longer walk according to the flesh.

Oh nonsense--that is NOT what those passages teach.

It is indeed what they teach.
 

Lady Crosstalk

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The kjv is never in error.
Are you saying that the translators were infallible?

But for you, further study is done in a translation that is biased against the requirement for holiness in scripture. If you understand that the kjv is just as inspired, if not more so, than your watered-down translations, then you would be able to see that the kjv brings out very nicely this requirement of holiness, more than the others. To discount this requirement, you would have to discount the validity of the kjv entirely. However, to do so would be to denounce 2 Timothy 3:16.

2Ti 3:16, All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
The Apostle Paul obviously meant that it is inspired in the original languages.


I fear that the creation of the watered-down translations has only served to bring division to the body of Christ; if those who read the watered-down translations are even in the body of Christ (I'll give them the benefit of the doubt).

Does that mean that, when I read the KJV (and I do sometimes--I actually prefer to memorize Scripture in the KJV) I am in the Body of Christ and then when I read the NIV or the NLT, I'm put out of the Body and then when I read from the KJV again, I'm back in? Do you see the difficulty of your position?
 
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justbyfaith

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"Perfecting" as in ongoing process.

If we cannot reach the goal of perfection, what is the point in seeking to obtain it? we would just be spinning our wheels...

And also, those who do not believe they can reach the goal, impaho, really are not attempting to achieve it; because they believe that they never can...and therefore why would they even try?

Congratulations. You have managed to puff yourself up in rude condescension and insulted a child of God in the process. The "itching ears" phrase is for unbelievers. You have thoroughly misapplied it and been quite nasty to boot. Do you think that qualifies as sinless?

The "itching ears" phrase is about people who would be sitting under the teaching/preaching of Timothy. So then, it appears that you have judged their salvation.

Now I intended no disrespect. However, it is my belief that those who reject the kjv for watered-down translations, do so, for the most part, because they have itching ears. If that is not you, then I apologize to you, O child of God.
 

justbyfaith

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I am saying that the Lord is sovereign and Omnipotent and loving...and that based on this, He would set apart at least one Bible that contains His unadulterated full counsel (and also make it available to everyone).

re #244 (The false gospel of grace).
 
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justbyfaith

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Congratulations. You have managed to puff yourself up in rude condescension and insulted a child of God in the process. The "itching ears" phrase is for unbelievers. You have thoroughly misapplied it and been quite nasty to boot. Do you think that qualifies as sinless?
I do find that any time I begin to contend for this very faithful doctrine in the word of the Lord, that opponents of my pov most often are looking for any flaw that I might show forth to them so that they can say, "see? it isn't true...because it isn't true of you..." (see Titus 2:7-8, 1 Peter 2:12, 1 Peter 3:16).

(It translates into a hyper-critical spirit).

However, I don't claim that it is true of me; I am only contending for the reality of the teaching in the word of the Lord.

If I, who am setting forth this doctrine, personally have not yet obtained this second benefit that is spoken of so clearly in scripture, does that mean that it does not exist?

(I have said before that those who have been perfected will have the attitude that they always have room to grow).

Do we base our understanding of the word of the Lord on our experience, or ought we to base our understanding of our experiences on the word of the Lord?

I believe that the latter is the only viable option.
 
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Lady Crosstalk

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If we cannot reach the goal of perfection, what is the point in seeking to obtain it? we would just be spinning our wheels...
No, we hope to come closer every day--until the day when perfection is obtained in heaven.

And also, those who do not believe they can reach the goal, impaho, really are not attempting to achieve it; because they believe that they never can...and therefore why would they even try?
To please the Lord Jesus, whom they love.


The "itching ears" phrase is about people who would be sitting under the teaching/preaching of Timothy.
I would hope not! I would expect that Timothy taught the true gospel and not a false gospel. In any case, Paul says that those people have "rejected the truth". (also, please see 1 Timothy chapter 4).
So then, it appears that you have judged their salvation.
Not me--God the Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul.

Now I intended no disrespect. However, it is my belief that those who reject the kjv for watered-down translations, do so, for the most part, because they have itching ears. If that is not you, then I apologize to you, O child of God.
1) Who says that I have rejected the KJV? 2) Does your perfection permit mocking another Christian?
 

Episkopos

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I do find that any time I begin to contend for this very faithful doctrine in the word of the Lord, that opponents of my pov most often are looking for any flaw that I might show forth to them so that they can say, "see? it isn't true...because it isn't true of you..." (see Titus 2:7-8, 1 Peter 2:12, 1 Peter 3:16).

(It translates into a hyper-critical spirit).

However, I don't claim that it is true of me; I am only contending for the reality of the teaching in the word of the Lord.

If I, who am setting forth this doctrine, personally have not yet obtained this second benefit that is spoken of so clearly in scripture, does that mean that it does not exist?

Do we base our understanding of the word of the Lord on our experience, or ought we to base our understanding of our experiences on the word of the Lord?

I believe that the latter is the only viable option.


Kudos bro! You have the attitude of a genuine seeker of God...rare in our times. :)
 
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justbyfaith

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I would hope not! I would expect that Timothy taught the true gospel and not a false gospel.
Truly Timothy preached the truth...but Paul in 2 Timothy 4 warns Timothy that there will come a day when people (sitting under his teaching) will no longer endure sound doctrine. Of course there is a broader application in that we know (and see) that in these last days the body of Christ in general doesn't endure sound doctrine; in that they flip over to watered-down translations because they don't like something that the Lord spoke to them out of the kjv. This is a general observation and may not apply to all.
 

justbyfaith

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No, we hope to come closer every day--until the day when perfection is obtained in heaven.
Suppose I hit the ceiling of the situation while on earth...this does not necessarily mean that the Lord is going to immediately take me home; for I may be of some use to him on earth, exemplifying His virtue and glorifying His name thereby. Showing that not every Christian in the world is a hypocrite...which is the #1 reason why unbelievers don't come to faith in Jesus...that is, hypocrisy in the church.
 

stunnedbygrace

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If a person thinks they are condemned by their sins of the flesh then they are under the bondage of sin. They refuse to see that Jesus has already paid the price for their sins of the flesh and they are living in un-belief (without faith in God's work on the cross).

It is obvious to me that Romans 6:1-14 is not saying what you want it to say. If the children of God are DEAD TO SIN then how can sin have any dominion over them. They have been set free from the condemnation of their sins of the flesh, verse 6 and 7. Waking in newness of life is walking in faith verses 9-12. Finally in verse 14 we see that sin has no dominion over the children of God because they are not under the law, but under grace.

If the children of God are not under the law then how can the law condemn them???? The law condemns those that think they have to earn salvation by what They do. This is what the religious think. They think that they have to save themselves by what they do. They refuse to believe they are saved by what Jesus has already done on the cross.

You say the law condemns those who think they have to earn salvation by what they do. And this is true, because the law condemns every single man ever born.

But if you stop there, you are, as episkopos says, a halfbaked cake. (Which is to say, in other words, if you stop there, you have half the truth.)


The gospel cannot be boiled down to "trust that you will live forever and you will." It also can't be boiled down to
" believe that Jesus died and you will live forever."

You can't present "I don't condemn you" while failing to present "go and sin no more." Otherwise, you are no different than those who marveled over His gracious words but a second later wanted to kill Him.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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When a person doesn't understand the power of Christ...they always run to the flesh as an excuse to disbelieve...as you are doing.

All have sinned. But not all continue to sin.

Those of us who are truly born again have access to the Lord's grace so as to walk as He walked.

But if you only know the power of the flesh..you can't understand the power of this kind of life.

So I, as anyone who believes, do NOT sin, and cannot sin when I abide in Christ. This is to glory in the Lord. Those who hate the truth are actually glorying in themselves. My testimony is both experiential and biblical...not theoretical.

Can I fly? No, not of myself...but in a plane I can. The same goes for being in Christ. Can I be without
sin? Not of myself. But if I enter into Christ I walk as He walked. Many here testify against the truth because they are yet in their sins.

In Him is NO sin. Many here have NO experience of this Christ. They have a happy believing Jesus that is tickled at being asked to forgive them non-stop...for being carnal.

1 John also says...

1 John 3:16 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

....only they who know Jesus Christ can testify of this overcoming grace.

Just be careful to leave room for a man who does know Jesus and has received the Holy Spirit, but hasn't yet learned to abide and walk in the Spirit for very long periods of time. You yourself know that Not every man who struggles with what you say is without the Holy Spirit. When our trust grows, we abide a bit longer and stumble in the race less frequently.
 

stunnedbygrace

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So . . . again the question . . . do you sin?

Again . . . this is a serious question.

Much love!

I think your focus is wrong. And the question should be, have you ever stumbled in your race of trust? We all have stumbled in our race of trust. The point should be to get up and start trusting (abiding) again.

I think your question should rather be, do you think you will ever stumble again in your trust? Like...do you think you will ever begin to worry again over temporal provision? Or...do you think you will ever begin to try again to be good rather than trust Him to change your heart?

These are at least questions he could speculate on. But if someone is abiding presently, they're not sinning that they're aware of, and they're running their race of trust to win. So they're not looking behind at the last stumble of trust. They're running and looking forward.
 
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Episkopos

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Just be careful to leave room for a man who does know Jesus and has received the Holy Spirit, but hasn't yet learned to abide and walk in the Spirit for very long periods of time. You yourself know that Not every man who struggles with what you say is without the Holy Spirit. When our trust grows, we abide a bit longer and stumble in the race less frequently.


Good to hear from you! :)

Leave room for what? What I am saying is that the Holy Spirit is IN a person who is born again. It is Christ IN us. But it takes going to the throne of grace to get the FULL measure of grace. We need to further enter into someone who isn't us....Jesus Christ Himself. It's like the 10 lepers who were healed but only one came back to Jesus. ALL were indeed healed. But there was a selfishness in the other 9 as in...I got what I came for. (Come and get YOUR miracle today).

What you are speaking of is maturity. But even maturity is at different levels.

Imagine going for a long walk...say 30 miles. Some people could do that in a day. But then another person takes 2 days....because he is also carrying 80 pounds on his back. So who must be in the better shape?

That's the way it is with the narrow path. We can be as mature as can be...but maturity in the spiritual walk of purity (holiness) is something vastly different. The walk of the righteous person is one thing...but to walk as Jesus walked for any length of time is miraculous. Can a man walk on water as if he was walking on land?

So then I divide maturity in righteousness...becoming more loving, more forgiving...getting to know God better. That's good...very good. And that's one thing....but then there's maturity IN the Spirit which is like getting used to living on another planet. What makes a person at home on earth does not automatically make a person able to survive in another world. Of course righteousness and holiness are related. Learning righteousness helps with a longevity in holiness...even though it doesn't lead to it.

But the scandal of Jesus Christ is that He didn't just perfect a walk in the power of the flesh for us to grow into. He perfected humanity by a higher walk...a spiritual walk, and then brings us into it through translation into Zion in the Spirit. The scandal is that we can never improve ourselves into holiness. Holiness is a gift. Spiritual maturity is how long we can walk in the Spirit. Like how long we can walk on water for.

If I only spoke about what men can do...I would not be hated for speaking of the the cross of Christ in this way...the break with human kind which separates us from what we can do in our own capabilities...even mature capabilities. But I speak of the unspeakable gift...so I'm hated by many. The gift of God is the perfection of Christ's humanity given to us already perfected...as a gift. No improvements are required. It's the whole enchalada right away. That is what grace is. A gift of an eternal walk in an eternal life....not our life...but as partakers of HIS life. So the spiritual maturity is learning to walk IN someone else...not yourself.

Hard to believe? Absolutely. Not of this world. :) But there it is!

Having said all that...God loves us who walk after Him in the fear of Him and the hope of a future life with Him. We are saved not just by an active faith in the moment but also a living hope in the long race. God works with us...and guides us by His Spirit. We are His people who obey His commands and seek after Him. And then there's the saints...
 
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stunnedbygrace

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And . . . another straw man. Who is saying that??

Actually...a lot of men are saying it. Anytime we read - if we abide in Him we do not sin - and yet we hear a man argue - no, if we abide in Him we DO still sin - you are hearing it.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Epi when you ask, leave room for what? I was referring to the last paragraph of your post, where you said only those who know Jesus can attest to overcoming grace. I guess it sounded to me like it could be taken as you saying unless you can attest to that overcoming grace, you don't know Him and haven't received His Spirit. So I just wanted you to leave room for those who do know Him and have His Spirit but who are struggling in areas of trust/being exercised/being tested in their trust so it will come out stronger and purer.
 

Episkopos

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Epi when you ask, leave room for what? I was referring to the last paragraph of your post, where you said only those who know Jesus can attest to overcoming grace. I guess it sounded to me like it could be taken as you saying unless you can attest to that overcoming grace, you don't know Him and haven't received His Spirit. So I just wanted you to leave room for those who do know Him and have His Spirit but who are struggling in areas of trust/being exercised/being tested in their trust so it will come out stronger and purer.


OK....I meant know Christ in the intimate sense of experiential power. But I agree with you. In 1 John it says if we sin we have never known Him. I take that to mean...if you have never stopped sinning so as to walk in a supernatural life of power...then you have not yet known Jesus AS HE IS. So then a saint can say AS HE IS...so are we in this world.

I follow an exact biblical standard that is unheard of....which Paul sought after. He called it "the high calling in Christ."

It's like the difference between buying a guitar...and then becoming a world class musician. How many people buy guitars? Many. How many guitarists become world class musicians? Few. So then we have all these people claiming to be saints....just like pride-filled prima-donnas that can't play at all calling themselves world class musicians. It would be laughable if it wasn't so sad. :(

But people HATE God's standards. It sounds IMPOSSIBLE. But that's when you know the doctrine is from God. Because without His direct help...it IS impossible. So then we are forced to seek a relationship with Him. Then...everybody is happy! :)

But all this false doctrine that the modern churches teach...make people happy...but God not so much!
 

stunnedbygrace

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Good to hear from you! :)

Leave room for what? What I am saying is that the Holy Spirit is IN a person who is born again. It is Christ IN us. But it takes going to the throne of grace to get the FULL measure of grace. We need to further enter into someone who isn't us....Jesus Christ Himself. It's like the 10 lepers who were healed but only one came back to Jesus. ALL were indeed healed. But there was a selfishness in the other 9 as in...I got what I came for. (Come and get YOUR miracle today).

What you are speaking of is maturity. But even maturity is at different levels.

Imagine going for a long walk...say 30 miles. Some people could do that in a day. But then another person takes 2 days....because he is also carrying 80 pounds on his back. So who must be in the better shape?

That's the way it is with the narrow path. We can be as mature as can be...but maturity in the spiritual walk of purity (holiness) is something vastly different. The walk of the righteous person is one thing...but to walk as Jesus walked for any length of time is miraculous. Can a man walk on water as if he was walking on land?

So then I divide maturity in righteousness...becoming more loving, more forgiving...getting to know God better. That's good...very good. And that's one thing....but then there's maturity IN the Spirit which is like getting used to living on another planet. What makes a person at home on earth does not automatically make a person able to survive in another world. Of course righteousness and holiness are related. Learning righteousness helps with a longevity in holiness...even though it doesn't lead to it.

But the scandal of Jesus Christ is that He didn't just perfect a walk in the power of the flesh for us to grow into. He perfected humanity by a higher walk...a spiritual walk, and then brings us into it through translation into Zion in the Spirit. The scandal is that we can never improve ourselves into holiness. Holiness is a gift. Spiritual maturity is how long we can walk in the Spirit. Like how long we can walk on water for.

If I only spoke about what men can do...I would not be hated for speaking of the the cross of Christ in this way...the break with human kind which separates us from what we can do in our own capabilities...even mature capabilities. But I speak of the unspeakable gift...so I'm hated by many. The gift of God is the perfection of Christ's humanity given to us already perfected...as a gift. No improvements are required. It's the whole enchalada right away. That is what grace is. A gift of an eternal walk in an eternal life....not our life...but as partakers of HIS life. So the spiritual maturity is learning to walk IN someone else...not yourself.

Hard to believe? Absolutely. Not of this world. :) But there it is!

Having said all that...God loves us who walk after Him in the fear of Him and the hope of a future life with Him. We are saved not just by an active faith in the moment but also a living hope in the long race. God works with us...and guides us by His Spirit. We are His people who obey His commands and seek after Him. And then there's the saints...

I guess this sounds too hard to me the way it is written. But that could just be because of where I am. My only goal is to keep trusting and to trust for longer periods of time without stumbling in trust. It took me many years to even just stop worrying over money and where it was going to come from. I couldn't stop being dragged into worry again And again. And then I saw that I was worrying over my spiritual provision. So...I'm just always practicing remaining in trust. That's where I am, just loving that rest and striving to remain in it and refuse temptations to leave it, which is To stumble/stop abiding. To me, that IS practice of holiness.