Morality

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ScottA

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You have told me I cannot question you. That I must believe everything you say just because you say you know the truth. That is not a pathway to truth.
I have not said that at all. I simply told you I have told you the truth, and you believing it doesn't change that.

The pathway is finished, you have arrived. I have told you the truth. You just don't know it.
 

Vince

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What makes God good, is that He "is." His attributes are many.
More nonsensical BS. You explain nothing and then think you are wise.

Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight. Is 5:21.
 

Vince

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I have not said that at all. I simply told you I have told you the truth, and you believing it doesn't change that.

The pathway is finished, you have arrived. I have told you the truth. You just don't know it.
Ok. I am going to my sons baseball game. Have a nice weekend.
 

ScottA

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More nonsensical BS. You explain nothing and then think you are wise.

Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight. Is 5:21.
You are not allowed to quote scripture to me, you do not posses it.

But faced with what appears to be nonsensical and still having questions...you might want to make some adjustments to that stone you have in your head. Just sayin'.
 

ScottA

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Ok. I am going to my sons baseball game. Have a nice weekend.
Cool. Let's not do this again sometime. Instead, consider changing to meet the needs of the circumstances. Such is life. Your options are natural, or spiritual, or both. I recommend both.

Consider that for a moment. Life is first just natural, first you are born, you live, then you die. And if you are satisfied with that, that's cool, many species know nothing more. But if not, if life speaks to you beyond that, at that moment you should realize that you are totally out of your element, and that no one in this natural realm is going to be able to offer you anything but what they have experienced. They cannot offer to have you stick your head in some cosmic box and have you come out saying, "Wow!, I see what you mean - thanks for the demonstration, that was quite sufficient evidence." If they could - run! Do you not understand that if what you have been purposing where possible, it would be phony, and should be considered disqualified?

No, what makes the spiritual realm of God, the spiritual realm of God, is that it is completely set apart, unapproachable by the natural man...except in the hearing of it. Thus, it is written, "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." You see, this stuff has real supernatural meaning - but means nothing if it is like fairy dust to make magic of this worldly existence. And yet, if when you hear you do not believe and are not prompted to have faith in the things that are said and promised, or simply want a supercharged natural live here in the world and have no interest in life after this...then it's simply not for you. In which case, stop torturing yourself, enjoy what you have.

On the other hand, if you cannot imagine that humanity dies a natural death and then it's over - that, that is all there is, in spite of millions of testimonies to the contrary...then you have a life-choice to make. Not a half-life-choice, not even...that is what you have now.
 
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ScottA

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Have a great weekend!
 

Berserk

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Vince: "Does God have the ability to decide what is right and wrong? If so, then his judgments are subjective, if not, then he is not god."
The concept of "decide" implies deliberation about possible choices in time. That is a crude anthropomorphism because it assumes a need to ponder the right choice among alternate choices. This need already denies divine omniscience and omnipotence. If God transcends time, then God's values are timeless and eternal and are therefore never subject to decisions as circumstances arise in tione to demand such a decision. Rather, God's essence is Love, and so, Right and Wrong are corollaries of what Love eternally entails. You continually duck this point.

Vince: "Morality is about what is right and wrong not what the consequences are for wrong decisions."

What you don't get is this: the very concept of "wrong" is epistemologically meaningless without consequences. Define "wrong" wusing neither synonyms that beg the question nor consequences and accountability. You can't without arbitrarily imposing your wishful thinking on those who disagree with you.

Vince: "I agree these are objective to the standard of the bible. Just like my actions are objective as compared to my standard."
But your "standard" is arbitrary and pragmatic; and pragmatism is merely an expression of a value system that is socially functional, but not moral in the sense that you establish what "ought" to happen. Living according to your own fabricated value system is just your way of ducking the real question of whether there is such a thing as Right and Wrong in the universe apart from arbitrary pontifications that are merely asserted, but can't be defended.

Vince:"You have yet to demonstrate these laws exist."

A silly remark that overlooks the point that both of us are provisionally assuming both atheism and theism and discussing the implications of both beliefs for the meaningfulness of morality.

Vince: "I can objectively compare my actions to my standard."

Doing so has nothing to do with whether you can establish moral truth in any nonarbitrary way. You don't seem to have ever read an academic book on philosophical ethics.
 

Vince

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You are not allowed to quote scripture to me, you do not posses it.

But faced with what appears to be nonsensical and still having questions...you might want to make some adjustments to that stone you have in your head. Just sayin'.
Cool. Let's not do this again sometime. Instead, consider changing to meet the needs of the circumstances. Such is life. Your options are natural, or spiritual, or both. I recommend both.

Consider that for a moment. Life is first just natural, first you are born, you live, then you die. And if you are satisfied with that, that's cool, many species know nothing more. But if not, if life speaks to you beyond that, at that moment you should realize that you are totally out of your element, and that no one in this natural realm is going to be able to offer you anything but what they have experienced. They cannot offer to have you stick your head in some cosmic box and have you come out saying, "Wow!, I see what you mean - thanks for the demonstration, that was quite sufficient evidence." If they could - run! Do you not understand that if what you have been purposing where possible, it would be phony, and should be considered disqualified?

No, what makes the spiritual realm of God, the spiritual realm of God, is that it is completely set apart, unapproachable by the natural man...except in the hearing of it. Thus, it is written, "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." You see, this stuff has real supernatural meaning - but means nothing if it is like fairy dust to make magic of this worldly existence. And yet, if when you hear you do not believe and are not prompted to have faith in the things that are said and promised, or simply want a supercharged natural live here in the world and have no interest in life after this...then it's simply not for you. In which case, stop torturing yourself, enjoy what you have.

On the other hand, if you cannot imagine that humanity dies a natural death and then it's over - that, that is all there is, in spite of millions of testimonies to the contrary...then you have a life-choice to make. Not a half-life-choice, not even...that is what you have now.
Ok

Is murder wrong and if so why?
 

ScottA

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Ok

Is murder wrong and if so why?
Why do you ask? I mean, the fact that you are asking is an indication that your interest is not God.
Why then do you ask me, why don't you ask a policeman, an attorney, or a judge?
Have you no questions about God?
Or is this just another attempt on your part at baiting an emotional reaction to catch God and Christians on another immoral topic? And this you do after already being exposed.
See how you are?
 

Vince

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Why do you ask? I mean, the fact that you are asking is an indication that your interest is not God.
Why then do you ask me, why don't you ask a policeman, an attorney, or a judge?
Have you no questions about God?
Or is this just another attempt on your part at baiting an emotional reaction to catch God and Christians on another immoral topic? And this you do after already being exposed.
See how you are?
oh good grief.
 

ScottA

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Where does it say this in the bible?
Oh, I thought you were just asking me. But it would be in a variety of places, from "Thou shalt not kill", to "turn the other cheek." Why do you ask?
 

Vince

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Oh, I thought you were just asking me. But it would be in a variety of places, from "Thou shalt not kill", to "turn the other cheek." Why do you ask?
When the bible says explicitly that murder is wrong you use those verse. When the bible never says slavery is wrong you go through a bunch of hoops to try to make it say something it does not say. Why not be like Stranger and admit that slavery is ok if god says it is?
 

ScottA

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When the bible says explicitly that murder is wrong you use those verse. When the bible never says slavery is wrong you go through a bunch of hoops to try to make it say something it does not say. Why not be like Stranger and admit that slavery is ok if god says it is?
Because the bible is not literature, it's not literal in the way the world considers things to be literal. Many (as yourself apparently) just read and see the words.
 

Vince

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Because the bible is not literature, it's not literal in the way the world considers things to be literal. Many (as yourself apparently) just read and see the words.
When the Bible says don’t murder it is conveniently literal and simple when it says you can beat slaves it’s suddenly this complex theology that no one reading the Bible would ever get. Then the answer is since you are an unbeliever you cannot understand. That is also convenient. Whatever.

And if I ask 100 different Christians about these verses I will get 100 different answers. There is no reason to believe your interpretation over anyone else’s.
 
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ScottA

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When the Bible says don’t murder it is conveniently literal and simple when it says you can beat slaves it’s suddenly this complex theology that no one reading the Bible would ever get. Then the answer is since you are an unbeliever you cannot understand. That is also convenient. Whatever.

And if I ask 100 different Christians about these verses I will get 100 different answers. There is no reason to believe your interpretation over anyone else’s.
That's right, perfectly concealed in plain sight.

But you are not even being sensible. If you asked one person every mile for a hundred miles, what they saw...do you really think they would tell you the same thing? Even that is an example minutely too small. Don't be so foolish.
 

Vince

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That's right, perfectly concealed in plain sight.

But you are not even being sensible. If you asked one person every mile for a hundred miles, what they saw...do you really think they would tell you the same thing? Even that is an example minutely too small. Don't be so foolish.
This is just saying that Christians cannot agree on truth. Cannot know in any meaningful way what is true, if god exists, if the bible is accurate, etc.
 

Berserk

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Note carefully that Vince's meaningless view of the grounds for morality is decisively refuted by post 46 and understandably has had noting to say in response. So I will now address the absurdities of his other threads, specifically his failure to come to terms with the principle that the position that makes the best sense of all the relevant data is the position to be preferred.

Notice also that Vince established the criteria God must meet to make Himself real to Vince and shows no interest in God's criteria for the right way to invite Christ into his life. Thus, Vince acts as if God would be rather lucky to recruit him as a follower of Jesus.