The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity

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marks

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Do you really believe that is what Reformed people believe ?

Hi Bill,

Tell me if you will, what do you believe was the reason for God choosing those whom He chose?

And please, I'm not looking for a link to a webpage, or a lengthy treatise, more just a simple answer. I completely believe that truth can be simply expressed, and that the more complex the argument for something in the Bible, the more I would examine the view. Not that it's necessarily wrong, just that I consider such suspect.

Thanks in advance!

Much love!
 
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SovereignGrace

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Again you do not come right out and say it, leaving someone else to have to do it for you. Just tell me if you disagree.

Your view then is that

one such as me who believes from Scripture that God reconciled all, and now urges each to be reconciled,

one such as me, who believes God actually meant what He said, whosoever believes, all who are weary, I could go on,

who believes that Jesus' death was sufficient for all humanity, God not being stingy, has forgiveness for all, not just some, not being a respecter of persons,

One such as me is not born again.

In God's boundless love!
God hasn’t reconciled all. That’s not what 2 Corinthians 5:19 says. Those who are reconciled don’t have their sins imputed unto them. Those who died in their sins pay for them in hell, died not being reconciled to God.
 
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Anthony D'Arienzo

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marks,
[OK. Well, I've already spent quite a number of years studying this topic.]

there is no evidence of that.

[That's why I distilled my understanding into a couple of paragraphs.]
Sorry, this is bogus. The topic does not get distilled into two paragraphs


It was alledged that I was misrepresenting the opposing viewpoint. So I thought I'd do a little reality check to make sure the doctrine which I thought some of your were supporting was actually what you believed.
[But apparently no one is willing to engage me in that way. The only response I've gotten is from you, which I appreciate, but then you're just sending me off to more reading, and engage some document point by point by point]

If you are at all serious you will go line by line and respond. It looks as if you avoid scripture at any cost. Prove me wrong and go line by line.


[ keep hoping for a discussion]
If you want a discussion go line by line and we will discuss as much as you want.

3
._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace;

others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )
 

Preacher4Truth

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marks,
[OK. Well, I've already spent quite a number of years studying this topic.]

there is no evidence of that.

[That's why I distilled my understanding into a couple of paragraphs.]
Sorry, this is bogus. The topic does not get distilled into two paragraphs


It was alledged that I was misrepresenting the opposing viewpoint. So I thought I'd do a little reality check to make sure the doctrine which I thought some of your were supporting was actually what you believed.
[But apparently no one is willing to engage me in that way. The only response I've gotten is from you, which I appreciate, but then you're just sending me off to more reading, and engage some document point by point by point]

If you are at all serious you will go line by line and respond. It looks as if you avoid scripture at any cost. Prove me wrong and go line by line.


[ keep hoping for a discussion]
If you want a discussion go line by line and we will discuss as much as you want.

3
._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace;

others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )
I agree and do not buy his argument that; 1) He's studied this for years. 2) That he's distilled this down to a paragraph or two. 3) That he ever brings a biblical case. It's all pretentiousness on his part.

It's apparent that he's simply always believed what he's always believed and has not grown in Gospel understanding. He's never understood our biblical position, as he's misrepresented it too often for one to even remotely believe he's spent time studying it.
 

Preacher4Truth

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Again you do not come right out and say it, leaving someone else to have to do it for you. Just tell me if you disagree.

Your view then is that

one such as me who believes from Scripture that God reconciled all, and now urges each to be reconciled,

one such as me, who believes God actually meant what He said, whosoever believes, all who are weary, I could go on,

who believes that Jesus' death was sufficient for all humanity, God not being stingy, has forgiveness for all, not just some, not being a respecter of persons,

One such as me is not born again.

In God's boundless love!

Goodness sake man. The above is so representative of a very shallow and errant view of Scripture that it's sad.

You take so many allusions to Scripture, and every single one is completely out of context. Sorry, you've not done serious study, you simply meld together a bunch of out of context thoughts and have developed and erroneous doctrine off of it. It's quasi gospel and quasi biblical.

I know you don't really care to use Scripture in context or practice 2 Timothy 2:15, but perhaps others, or even one will see this and accept correction and biblical accuracy.
 
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SovereignGrace

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Goodness sake man. The above is so representative of a very shallow and errant view of Scripture that it's sad.

You take so many allusions to Scripture, and every single one is completely out of context. Sorry, you've not done serious study, you simply meld together a bunch of out of context thoughts and have developed and erroneous doctrine off of it. It's quasi gospel and quasi biblical.

I know you don't really care to use Scripture in context or practice 2 Timothy 2:15, but perhaps others, or even one will see this and accept correction and biblical accuracy.
His and their’s exegesis..

God so loved the world that He was not willing any should perish, because He has reconciled everybody without exception and that He is the atoning sacrifice or not us only, but the world, that He is now knocking on their heart’s door, wanting to sup with them and them with Him and that the Spirit says come, the bride says come, and let whosoever come and drink of the water office freely, because He is wanting everyone be saved.[JohnRev1John2Peter 3:16]

#Whew
 

marks

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Let's try again to rein back in from the fallacies and pejoratives, shall we?

I'd like to ask my question again about God's election.

What is the criteria by which God makes His choice? I believe I know how the Bible answers this question.

What do you believe the Bible tell us about God's criteria of why He choses one man over another?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Having had this debate many times with many people over many years, and having studied this myself over many years, I'm well versed on the arguments. Regardless of how much you may want to just keep dumping on me instead of engaging my very simple questions, those questions litter this thread unanswered.

There is a reason why no one wants to engage my questions, and have a simple discussion. Because these are the questions that show the flaws at the heart of this doctrine.

So rather than answer these questions, and engage in a real discussion, I see what I've routinely seen.

Mischaracterization and Straw Man arguments.
Attacks against my knowledge, my character, and my spirituality, Ad hominems.
Attempt to bury me in masses of material to misdirect away from my simple questions.
A general meanness, antagonistic replies, presumably intended to make me just go away. Or just simply expressing the contempt you feel inside.

And a new one here is the continuing side discussions about how ridiculous and awful I am.

Anything rather than actually respond.

Much love!
 
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marks

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marks said:

Again you do not come right out and say it, leaving someone else to have to do it for you. Just tell me if you disagree.

Your view then is that

one such as me who believes from Scripture that God reconciled all, and now urges each to be reconciled,

one such as me, who believes God actually meant what He said, whosoever believes, all who are weary, I could go on,

who believes that Jesus' death was sufficient for all humanity, God not being stingy, has forgiveness for all, not just some, not being a respecter of persons,

One such as me is not born again.

In God's boundless love!


God hasn’t reconciled all. That’s not what 2 Corinthians 5:19 says. Those who are reconciled don’t have their sins imputed unto them. Those who died in their sins pay for them in hell, died not being reconciled to God.

You didn't respond to my post.

Is this what you believe, what I wrote above?

Much love!
 
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Enoch111

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God hasn’t reconciled all. That’s not what 2 Corinthians 5:19 says.
But that is exactly what that verse says. And what it means is that on God's side there is no more enmity against sinners, since Christ paid the sin debt for THE WHOLE WORLD IN FULL. God is now fully satisfied with the perfect sacrifice of Christ, hence He no longer regards humanity with enmity.

But that is not where the matter ends. Sinners -- by definition -- are enemies of God, and separated from God. Therefore every person must be reconciled to God by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and receiving Him as Lord and Savior. That means repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21).

JAMIESON, FAUSSET, BROWN COMMENTARY
The first step towards restoring peace between us and God was on God's side (Joh 3:16). The change therefore now to be effected must be on the part of offending man, God the offended One being already reconciled. It is man, not God, who now needs to be reconciled, and to lay aside his enmity against God (Ro 5:10, 11).

Your misinterpretation of that verse clearly indicates that you do not really believe the true Gospel. Calvinism is a false gospel but you refuse to give it up.
 
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marks

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Goodness sake man. The above is so representative of a very shallow and errant view of Scripture that it's sad.

You take so many allusions to Scripture, and every single one is completely out of context. Sorry, you've not done serious study, you simply meld together a bunch of out of context thoughts and have developed and erroneous doctrine off of it. It's quasi gospel and quasi biblical.

I know you don't really care to use Scripture in context or practice 2 Timothy 2:15, but perhaps others, or even one will see this and accept correction and biblical accuracy.
And yet again, yet once more, insults instead of rebuttal.

No need to wonder why.

;)
 
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Laish

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Hi Bill,

Tell me if you will, what do you believe was the reason for God choosing those whom He chose?

And please, I'm not looking for a link to a webpage, or a lengthy treatise, more just a simple answer. I completely believe that truth can be simply expressed, and that the more complex the argument for something in the Bible, the more I would examine the view. Not that it's necessarily wrong, just that I consider such suspect.

Thanks in advance!

Much love!
One is to show His Glory to all . It’s not a thing of luck or about us it’s all about Him .
He is our Lord , our King .

1 Corinthians 1:26 For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; 27 but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, 28 and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, 29 so that no man may boast before God.30 but by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

It has nothing to do with us or any quality that we may possess.
God chose the least of this word to demonstrate it’s not about man or our wisdom.
He also called us to worship Him, to pray to Him ,spread the Gospel, feed the hungry, cloth the poor, visit and tend to the sick , and visit those in jail . I could go on but ya get the idea. This is also something out of desire if we are in Him this will be in us .
Hope that answers your question.
If not tell me .
Blessings
Bill
 
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Preacher4Truth

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Hi Bill,

Tell me if you will, what do you believe was the reason for God choosing those whom He chose...
What does the Bible say the reason is (without reading things into it not there?)

Just quote Scripture and nothing else.

Then, after answering this with only what Scripture says, answer why did God choose you?

The answer is obvious. It is only due to what God has revealed in Scripture. Not your ideas added to Scripture.

That's a challenge to you, answer these questions only with Scripture, not your ideas or preconceived notions. Then you'll have the biblical answer without all the pretense and disingenuous theories.
 
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SovereignGrace

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marks said:

Again you do not come right out and say it, leaving someone else to have to do it for you. Just tell me if you disagree.

Your view then is that

one such as me who believes from Scripture that God reconciled all, and now urges each to be reconciled,

one such as me, who believes God actually meant what He said, whosoever believes, all who are weary, I could go on,

who believes that Jesus' death was sufficient for all humanity, God not being stingy, has forgiveness for all, not just some, not being a respecter of persons,

One such as me is not born again.

In God's boundless love!




You didn't respond to my post.

Is this what you believe, what I wrote above?

Much love!
The Christ’s death was sufficient for all, but’s it only applied to the elect. The 1689 states it better than I can. It’s chocked full of scriptural references. God hasn’t forgiven all, seeing all are not saved. He hasn’t reconciled all, seeing all are not saved. I did answer you, you just won’t accept my(our) answer.
 
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Preacher4Truth

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The Christ’s death was sufficient for all, but’s it only applied to the elect. The 1689 states it better than I can. It’s chocked full of scriptural references. God hasn’t forgiven all, seeing all are not saved. He hasn’t reconciled all, seeing all are not saved. I did answer you, you just won’t accept my(our) answer.
Yes, to say it means every person has been reconciled is not correct.

You're right, you gave the proper answer, he just ignores it, that it's true, and won't accept it because he knows he's been answered.
 
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SovereignGrace

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Yes, to say it means every person has been reconciled is not correct.

You're right, you gave the proper answer, he just ignores it, that it's true, and won't accept it because he knows he's been answered.
What he preaches is potentiality. The cross could potentially save everybody, only if everybody holds up to their end of the deal. God has done His part by sending His Son to die for them, so that part is secure. Only those who do their part, get saved. It’s this type of salvation.


giphy.gif


#Putitthere!
 

Nancy

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But that is exactly what that verse says. And what it means is that on God's side there is no more enmity against sinners, since Christ paid the sin debt for THE WHOLE WORLD IN FULL. God is now fully satisfied with the perfect sacrifice of Christ, hence He no longer regards humanity with enmity.

But that is not where the matter ends. Sinners -- by definition -- are enemies of God, and separated from God. Therefore every person must be reconciled to God by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and receiving Him as Lord and Savior. That means repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21).

JAMIESON, FAUSSET, BROWN COMMENTARY
The first step towards restoring peace between us and God was on God's side (Joh 3:16). The change therefore now to be effected must be on the part of offending man, God the offended One being already reconciled. It is man, not God, who now needs to be reconciled, and to lay aside his enmity against God (Ro 5:10, 11).

Your misinterpretation of that verse clearly indicates that you do not really believe the true Gospel. Calvinism is a false gospel but you refuse to give it up.

When a group of people complicate the simplest of verses, look out...
 

SkyWriting

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When considering the Five Points of Calvinism, the first point - "total depravity" - insists that:
  • man, being dead in sin, cannot desire to escape the punishment of sin any more than a dead man desires to escape the grave he's buried in
  • man cannot "accept Christ" as his Savior from sin because "accepting" is an act of works which would render his salvation by works.
However, when we consider that "she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth" - we see the Bible puts spiritual death in the present tense while we are yet alive. Though being spritually dead, we can still respond to God's generous invitation to "come now, let us reason together."
Reasoning together for what purpose? For God to justify to the lost His "celestial eternal-life lottery" of which they can't even buy a ticket? Obviously, He asks us to "reason together" with Him so that we can make an informed choice about the crucial issue He so desperately wants us to consider: "sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness". The choice to accept Jesus as Savior is not "works", but a thought.
The battle for our eternal destiny begins and ends in the mind, by either choosing to remain a servant of sin or choosing salvation by grace through faith in Christ through which God makes us a child of the King.

From God's point of view, your future is His history. Man is unable to reconcile the notion that God's knows your future. It's not a flaw to recognize that man does not know the future and God does.
 

Nancy

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From God's point of view, your future is His history. Man is unable to reconcile the notion that God's knows your future. It's not a flaw to recognize that man does not know the future and God does.

Hello Charles, and welcome to the forum!
God does not live in "time", and 'history' is part of "time". And, my God is all knowing. From the beginning of time to the end of time...He already knows all things that have happened and that will happen. He works ALL things to the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose...which is to Trust in the ONLY way to Him, Jesus Christ. I also believe He uses every single thing we do to His glory and I do NOT believe He "makes" us choose every single thing we do. He is obviously perfect enough to display His will despite our blunders...He uses everything!
God Bless,
nancy
 
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SkyWriting

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Hello Charles, and welcome to the forum!
God does not live in "time", and 'history' is part of "time". And, my God is all knowing. From the beginning of time to the end of time...He already knows all things that have happened and that will happen. He works ALL things to the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose...which is to Trust in the ONLY way to Him, Jesus Christ. I also believe He uses every single thing we do to His glory and I do NOT believe He "makes" us choose every single thing we do. He is obviously perfect enough to display His will despite our blunders...He uses everything!
God Bless,
nancy
I agree. Thanks.
 
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