KJV versus Modern Translations

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CoreIssue

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The Holy Spirit has indeed guarded and preserved the written Word of God in the traditional Hebrew and Greek texts which are faithfully translated in the King James Bible and the Geneva Bible (among other Reformation Bibles).

But ever since the 19th century this pure text of the Bible has been under attack by unbelieving scholars and critics, who chose to promote a handful of CORRUPTED MANUSCRIPTS (the Minority or Critical Text) and that is what you will find in all modern Bible versions.

Christians have been informed about this attack on the Bible, but many continue to promote the corrupted Bibles instead of staying with the King James Bible. And for those who need updated versions of the KJV, there are a few out there (barring the NKJV which has also been corrupted).
That is a false claim.

None of the original autographs still exists.

Faithfully translated? Big claim that you cannot prove.

The Bible has been under attack since the writings of the OT prophets and New Testament apostles.

To claim that beginning the 19th century is pure blindness and a total lack of historical knowledge.

All you're doing is quoting the propaganda of the KJVO, which you absolutely cannot prove.

If you listen to the videos even the KJVO admit they cannot prove it. That it is pure faith on their part.

The fact remains the KJV you endorse is from 1679 and is different from the 1611.
 
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CoreIssue

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But God has "outsmarted" those unbelievers and has made sure that those who belong to Him are able to understand the pure word from the context and through duplication--under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I was raised with the KJV but was clueless to put it together until I became a Christian, by the convicting power of the Holy Spirit. The early 20th century's, C.H. Spurgeon (arguably, one of the greatest preachers ever of God's word) once said:"The need of the hour for today's ministry is believing scholarship joined with earnest spirituality, the one springing from the other as fruit from the root. The need is Biblical doctrine so understood and felt that it sets men's hearts on fire." C.H Spurgeon had NO formal academic training in theology but he did have 10,000 volumes in his own personal library.
None of the apostles had academic training.

They were fishermen, farmers and similar.

We are losing the greatest of today. Such as Walter Martin are gone. John Ankerberg is older than me.
David Hunt is gone.

The few remaining great ones are older than me.

The number of true Christians is dwindling rapidly and not being replaced.
 
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Lady Crosstalk

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None of the apostles had academic training.

They were fishermen, farmers and similar.

We are losing the greatest of today. Such as Walter Martin are gone. John Ankerberg is older than me.
David Hunt is gone.

The few remaining great ones are older than me.

The number of true Christians is dwindling rapidly and not being replaced.

That is why I believe that we are in the "gleaning" stage of the harvest. The "professional" harvesters have left the field and the "poor in spirit" are now in the field gathering up the last of the grain.
 
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CoreIssue

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That is why I believe that we are in the "gleaning" stage of the harvest. The "professional" harvesters have left the field and the "poor in spirit" are now in the field gathering up the last of the grain.
We are in the last gatherings of the age of the Gentiles for the rapture.

Another gathering will be in the tribulation concerning the tribulation saints for entering the MK.

The seventh church is growing.

The sixth church is shrinking.

The clock is ticking.
 
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Phoneman777

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But, Phoneman, the Sadducees and Pharisees had nothing but the pure word: They had extremely strict rules that led to the preservation of the Scriptures. Jesus Himself testifies to the accuracy of the Scriptures in John 10:35--->"...the Scriptures cannot be broken." And they STILL blew it when it came to recognizing who the Messiah was and is.

We don't want to be "straining at gnats and swallowing camels" which is what the religious authorities in Jesus' day appeared to be doing. Do you not think that the Holy Spirit can guard the word that He inspired and deliver it to the believer's heart in a pure way?
My point is that He did in fact guard His Word - not in Alexandria but in Palestine. The MSS that was preserved there up until the time when Islam chased Christianity from the Byzantian Empire toward the West and there the preservation of it was continued. Known as the "Traditional Text Family" or the "Byzantian Text Family", these precious MSS became the foundation upon which the Protestant Reformation stood.

It is not my intention to offend by saying as much, but there has been much effort to conceal historic truth and make it appear as if the Alexandrian and Western (Roman Catholic) Family MSS are what God originally intended and the only way one can make an informed decision as to which MSS is actually what God guarded as truth is to lay ALL POINTS OF VIEW on the table for examination.
 
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Phoneman777

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Exactly.

Every translation contains dynamic translation.

A great example is the hand. In English it does not include the wrist. In Greek it does.

Mailing someone through the hand on across results in the nail ripping out. Through the rest and ankle bone will hold the weight.

Nor was it a cross like most envision. It was an X
View attachment 6303
The goal of the KJV translators was to AVOID AS FAR AS POSSIBLE DYNAMIC EQUIVALENCE for obvious reasons.

They used Verbal Equivalence (word for word) and Formal Equivalence (forms of words).

Dynamic Equivalence is the surest way to corrupt the original idea with what "we think they meant".
 

CoreIssue

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The goal of the KJV translators was to AVOID AS FAR AS POSSIBLE DYNAMIC EQUIVALENCE for obvious reasons.

They used Verbal Equivalence (word for word) and Formal Equivalence (forms of words).

Dynamic Equivalence is the surest way to corrupt the original idea with what "we think they meant".
What you call verbal equivalents is the same as formal equivalents or Word for Word.

That simply is linguistically impossible. No language can translate to another Word for Word. It comes out sounding like garble to try.

Also words do not mean the same. As with hand. In the Greek it includes the wrist but the English it is not.

That is why you see so much imagery with a nail in Christ's hands, which would never support a body nailed to a cross. Been proven by nailing corpses to crosses.

Look at the shroud. The nail marks are in the hands and ankles.

There is a lot of dynamic equivalence in the KJV.

Let me remind you there is no excuse for Passover to be Easter in the KJV.

There is no excuse for saying God created evil. Inaccurate in the Hebrew.

And misunderstanding the word was in Genesis 1:2. The Hebrew means it became from another condition. It is not being created in that condition.

You want something that's trustable? Try the paraphrases.
 

Phoneman777

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We are in the last gatherings of the age of the Gentiles for the rapture.

Another gathering will be in the tribulation concerning the tribulation saints for entering the MK.

The seventh church is growing.

The sixth church is shrinking.

The clock is ticking.
There's just one slight, tiny, minuscule problem with your idea that there's going to be a tribulation period after Jesus comes to rapture the Gentile saints: our entire planet and the atmosphere surrounding it are going to both be totally incinerated at the time of the rapture:

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in the which ...

****not at some point after the day of the Lord but "in the which" meaning "in the day of the coming of the Lord as a thief in the night" the following takes place:****

...the heavens shall pass away with a great noise and the elements shall melt with fervent heat. The Earth and also the works therein shall be burned up..." 2 Peter 3:10
 

CoreIssue

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There's just one slight, tiny, minuscule problem with your idea that there's going to be a tribulation period after Jesus comes to rapture the Gentile saints: our entire planet and the atmosphere surrounding it are going to both be totally incinerated at the time of the rapture:

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in the which ...

****not at some point after the day of the Lord but "in the which" meaning "in the day of the coming of the Lord as a thief in the night" the following takes place:****

...the heavens shall pass away with a great noise and the elements shall melt with fervent heat. The Earth and also the works therein shall be burned up..." 2 Peter 3:10
You have a major problem. You're talking amillennialism.

The rapture is at the end of the church age and beginning of the tribulation.

The destruction of the earth is 1000 years later.

Again with the SDA doctrine.
 
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Enoch111

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CoreIssue

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Hardly. Just go to OFFICIAL KING JAMES BIBLE ONLINE: AUTHORIZED KING JAMES VERSION (KJV) and compare them for yourself. "Different" means that which was in the original was replaced with something else. But the only changes you will find are in spelling, punctuation, orthography, etc. which are immaterial.
All my. The official KJV.

You still have not provided one drop of evidence proving the KJV is the anointed by God.

There are other versions that are far old.

So what was the word of God in 1400AD? 1300, 1200, 1100, 1000?.

I asked you to prove your claim the KJV is the anointed word of God.

As the KJVO in the videos admitted, because they had no choice. It is a faith claim.
 

Phoneman777

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What you call verbal equivalents is the same as formal equivalents or Word for Word.
Wrong: Verbal equivalence means translating the Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic word into the equivalent English word. Formal equivalence means translating the noun to a noun, pronoun to a pronoun, noun/pronoun gender agreement, etc.
That simply is linguistically impossible. No language can translate to another Word for Word. It comes out sounding like garble to try.
"Je ne sais pas" = "I do know not" (That one phrase got me through my entire 11th grade French course)
Also words do not mean the same.
Yes, I can see why you believe that. You think "For the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night in the whcih the heavens shall pass away...the Earth and also the works therein shall be burned up" actually means "...thief in the night in the which there'll be seven more years of business as usual minus the Gentile saints".
As with hand. In the Greek it includes the wrist but the English it is not. That is why you see so much imagery with a nail in Christ's hands, which would never support a body nailed to a cross. Been proven by nailing corpses to crosses.
I'm sure the people who translated the KJV were well aware of the inability of a nail through the middle of a hand to support the weight of a body.
Look at the shroud. The nail marks are in the hands and ankles.
LOL are you actually appealing to the "shroud of turin" as a legitimate "relic"? I KNEW YOU WERE A JESUIT SYMPATHIZING HACK!!!
There is a lot of dynamic equivalence in the KJV.
Yes, the very thing the KJV translators tried to avoid at all costs ended up being peppered all through the KJV. Got it.
Let me remind you there is no excuse for Passover to be Easter in the KJV.
Let me remind you that after over ONE THOUSAND YEARS of papal distortion of the truth, we cannot expect the Protestant Reformers to have uncovered every single papal error as such overnight. Your papal masters for century after century had so caused Easter to become so intrinsically tied to the Passover that they were considered one in the same.
There is no excuse for saying God created evil. Inaccurate in the Hebrew.
TOTALLY ACCURATE IN THE HEBREW - "evil" in the Hebrew does not necessarily refer to the "moral" evil of "sin", but "evil" in the sense of "calamity, disaster, crop failure, judgment", etc. Also, the context of Isaiah 45 has to do with "evil" in the sense of "punishment" against rebellious Israel which has nothing to do with "moral" evil.
And misunderstanding the word was in Genesis 1:2. The Hebrew means it became from another condition. It is not being created in that condition. You want something that's trustable? Try the paraphrases.
You mean like your beloved Catholic Good News? Nah, I'll stick with anything based on the Textus Receptus.
 
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Enoch111

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You cannot prove he chose a certain translation as superior.
The history of the King James Bible and its impact on evangelism and church planting throughout the world for over 300 years is proof positive that God blessed this translation above all English translations. Indeed even to this day all reliable and conservative Bible study tools are based upon the King James Bible.

The Trinitarian Bible Society -- which had (and has) some outstanding conservative scholars -- took an implacable stand in publishing only the KJB in English, and all its foreign language translations being based upon the Masoretic and Received Texts.

Even the Jewish Publication Society -- which could have made its own translation of the Old Testament -- chose the King James Bible as its preferred translation (originally).

The enmity of the Catholic Church against William Tyndale as well as the King James Bible (which is hugely influenced by Tyndale) is another proof that the enemy of our souls hates this translation and has done everything in his power to attack it or try to replace it. Modern Bible versions are primarily based upon Codex Vaticanus, which is found in the pope's library. Vaticanus is one of the most corrupt Greek manuscripts, but it was elevated to the position of an idol by Westcott & Hort, and continues to impact all modern versions.

But the translators of the KJB exposed all the Catholic translations as being very faulty when they wrote their Preface (The Translators to the Reader) to the original version. Yet you have persisted in calling the KJB a "Catholic Translation".

'But now the Latin Translations were too many to be all good, for they were infinite (Latini Interpretes nullo modo numerari possunt, saith S. Augustine). Again they were not out of the Hebrew fountain (we speak of the Latin Translations of the Old Testament) but out of the Greek stream, therefore the Greek being not altogether clear, the Latin derived from it must needs be muddy...

...For what varieties have they, and what alterations have they made, not only of their Service books, Portesses and Breviaries, but also of their Latin Translation?... If we should tell them that Valla, Stapulensis, Erasmus, and Vives found fault with their vulgar Translation, and consequently wished the same to be mended, or a new one to be made, they would answer peradventure, that we produced their enemies for witnesses against them...

...But what will they say to this, that Pope Leo the Tenth allowed Erasmus' Translation of the New Testament, so much different from the vulgar, by his Apostolic Letter and Bull...If they say, it was one Pope's private opinion, and that he consulted only himself; then we are able to go further with them, and to aver, that more of their chief men of all sorts, even their own Trent champions Paiva and Vega, and their own Inquisitors, Hieronymus ab Oleastro, and their own Bishop Isidorus Clarius, and their own Cardinal Thomas a Vio Caietan, do either make new Translations themselves, or follow new ones of other men's making, or note the vulgar Interpreter for halting; none of them fear to dissent from him, nor yet to except against him....Nay, doth not Sixtus Quintus confess, that certain Catholics (he meaneth certain of his own side) were in such an humor of translating the Scriptures into Latin, that Satan taking occasion by them, though they thought of no such matter, did strive what he could, out of so uncertain and manifold a variety of Translations, so to mingle all things, that nothing might seem to be left certain and firm in them, etc.?'

 

Phoneman777

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You have a major problem. You're talking amillennialism.

The rapture is at the end of the church age and beginning of the tribulation.

The destruction of the earth is 1000 years later.

Again with the SDA doctrine.
Ladies and Gentlemen, friends and neighbors, step right up and observe for your entertainment pleasure what a total dismantling of eschatological nonsense using nothing but Scripture looks like! CoreIssue continues to claim his doctrinal opponents utilize only extra-Biblical sources as the authoritative basis for their arguments, so without further ado...

CoreIssue, your Jesuit sympathies have so effectively confused you to the point that it appears I have to first teach you your own error before refuting it. Here we go:

1) Modern Jesuit Futurists like yourself have fused Jesuit Priest Francisco Ribera's 15th century Jesuit Futurism and Darby's 19th century "secret rapture".

2) Modern Jesuit Futurists like yourself claim that the "rapture" happens when Jesus comes "as a thief in the night" (Matthew 24:43; Revelation 16:15; 1 Thessalonians 5:2) which will leave behind those who have to go through tribulation.

3) Modern Jesuit Futurists like yourself claim that at some point in the near future, a sudden "secret rapture" will happen when the Lord will sneak into town and sneak out with the Gentile saints - an event that will commence the "7 last years of tribulation" or "the 3 1/2 last years of tribulation" (some say "3 1/2 years" because how can you transport the entire 70th Week into the future if Jesus' death which was 2,000 years ago happened smack dab in the middle of it?)

4) During the "__ last years of tribulation", it'll be business as usual down here minus the Gentile saints.

Now, CoreIssue, since Peter says plainly that "the day of the Lord shall come as a thief in the night in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise and the elements shall melt with fervent heat. The Earth and also the works therein shall be burned up" (2 Peter 3:10 KJV)...

...how can there be a "7 last years" of anything if the entire planet will be reduced to a charred pile of rock with nothing but charred bones scattered everywhere?
 

CoreIssue

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The history of the King James Bible and its impact on evangelism and church planting throughout the world for over 300 years is proof positive that God blessed this translation above all English translations. Indeed even to this day all reliable and conservative Bible study tools are based upon the King James Bible.

The Trinitarian Bible Society -- which had (and has) some outstanding conservative scholars -- took an implacable stand in publishing only the KJB in English, and all its foreign language translations being based upon the Masoretic and Received Texts.

Even the Jewish Publication Society -- which could have made its own translation of the Old Testament -- chose the King James Bible as its preferred translation (originally).

The enmity of the Catholic Church against William Tyndale as well as the King James Bible (which is hugely influenced by Tyndale) is another proof that the enemy of our souls hates this translation and has done everything in his power to attack it or try to replace it. Modern Bible versions are primarily based upon Codex Vaticanus, which is found in the pope's library. Vaticanus is one of the most corrupt Greek manuscripts, but it was elevated to the position of an idol by Westcott & Hort, and continues to impact all modern versions.

But the translators of the KJB exposed all the Catholic translations as being very faulty when they wrote their Preface (The Translators to the Reader) to the original version. Yet you have persisted in calling the KJB a "Catholic Translation".

'But now the Latin Translations were too many to be all good, for they were infinite (Latini Interpretes nullo modo numerari possunt, saith S. Augustine). Again they were not out of the Hebrew fountain (we speak of the Latin Translations of the Old Testament) but out of the Greek stream, therefore the Greek being not altogether clear, the Latin derived from it must needs be muddy...

...For what varieties have they, and what alterations have they made, not only of their Service books, Portesses and Breviaries, but also of their Latin Translation?... If we should tell them that Valla, Stapulensis, Erasmus, and Vives found fault with their vulgar Translation, and consequently wished the same to be mended, or a new one to be made, they would answer peradventure, that we produced their enemies for witnesses against them...

...But what will they say to this, that Pope Leo the Tenth allowed Erasmus' Translation of the New Testament, so much different from the vulgar, by his Apostolic Letter and Bull...If they say, it was one Pope's private opinion, and that he consulted only himself; then we are able to go further with them, and to aver, that more of their chief men of all sorts, even their own Trent champions Paiva and Vega, and their own Inquisitors, Hieronymus ab Oleastro, and their own Bishop Isidorus Clarius, and their own Cardinal Thomas a Vio Caietan, do either make new Translations themselves, or follow new ones of other men's making, or note the vulgar Interpreter for halting; none of them fear to dissent from him, nor yet to except against him....Nay, doth not Sixtus Quintus confess, that certain Catholics (he meaneth certain of his own side) were in such an humor of translating the Scriptures into Latin, that Satan taking occasion by them, though they thought of no such matter, did strive what he could, out of so uncertain and manifold a variety of Translations, so to mingle all things, that nothing might seem to be left certain and firm in them, etc.?'
You offer opinion, not proof.

I repeat, there are other translation that have been in use centuries longer than the KJV.
 

Phoneman777

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CoreIssue

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Ladies and Gentlemen, friends and neighbors, step right up and observe for your entertainment pleasure what a total dismantling of eschatological nonsense using nothing but Scripture looks like! CoreIssue continues to claim his doctrinal opponents utilize only extra-Biblical sources as the authoritative basis for their arguments, so without further ado...

CoreIssue, your Jesuit sympathies have so effectively confused you to the point that it appears I have to first teach you your own error before refuting it. Here we go:

1) Modern Jesuit Futurists like yourself have fused Jesuit Priest Francisco Ribera's 15th century Jesuit Futurism and Darby's 19th century "secret rapture".

2) Modern Jesuit Futurists like yourself claim that the "rapture" happens when Jesus comes "as a thief in the night" (Matthew 24:43; Revelation 16:15; 1 Thessalonians 5:2) which will leave behind those who have to go through tribulation.

3) Modern Jesuit Futurists like yourself claim that at some point in the near future, a sudden "secret rapture" will happen when the Lord will sneak into town and sneak out with the Gentile saints - an event that will commence the "7 last years of tribulation" or "the 3 1/2 last years of tribulation" (some say "3 1/2 years" because how can you transport the entire 70th Week into the future if Jesus' death which was 2,000 years ago happened smack dab in the middle of it?)

4) During the "__ last years of tribulation", it'll be business as usual down here minus the Gentile saints.

Now, CoreIssue, since Peter says plainly that "the day of the Lord shall come as a thief in the night in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise and the elements shall melt with fervent heat. The Earth and also the works therein shall be burned up" (2 Peter 3:10 KJV)...

...how can there be a "7 last years" of anything if the entire planet will be reduced to a charred pile of rock with nothing but charred bones scattered everywhere?
I did this thread on your Jesuit nonsense that destroys it.

You have yet to post a single post on that thread.
 

Phoneman777

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I did this thread on your Jesuit nonsense that destroys it.

You have yet to post a single post on that thread.
Would you please explain how can there be a last seven years of anything after the "thief in the night" rapture when Peter says the day that the Lord comes as a thief in the night will end of the world as we know it?
 

Phoneman777

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All I asked for was proof of the claims about the KJV.

Neither of you have given any.
I gave you plenty of proof about the TR. Catholic priest Erasmus was a truth seeker more than a papist devotee - like you - and exposed the errors of the Western Latin MSS by the Byzantian Greek MSS brought West by Christians fleeing Islam in the East.