Apostles, teachers and other offices
- Thread starter CoreIssue
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Anthony D'Arienzo
Well-Known Member
This is where the denominational world has gone wrong. There is no such thing in the NT as a single, one man, “pastor” heading up some church. They appointed elders plural. It was always elders not let’s go see the “pastor”.
Acts 14:23 ordained them elders in every church. Not one elder or pastor.
In acts 20 Paul called for the elders not pastor of the church.
Give me an example where a church had one man as its head?
The word pastor in Eph 4 is the word poimem. It means shepherd. It is used again in 1 pet 2:25 and it’s translated shepherd. A variant word is used in acts 20:28
The word Elder is presbuteros or presbyter. it is referring to a mature person Ac 20:17. 1 Tim 4:14 .
The word bishop is episkopos. An overseer. Refers to someone who is to see that things are done correctly.
So, the point is they all refer to the same office. A pastor is a shepherd, is a bishop, is an elder, is an overseer. They are the same.
Example...
Acts 20: 17 Paul called for the “elders” (presbuteros) not one pastor, of the Ephesian congreagation or church.
Then in vs 28 he tells these men...
Take heed unto yourselves and to all the flock over which the Holy Ghost has made you overseers (episkopos, same word for bishop) to shepherd (a variant of poimen which Eph 4 uses for pastor) the church of God which he purchased with his own blood.
In this one encounter Paul uses three separate words to refer to the same plurality of men.
So someone like Charles Stanley cannot be head pastor over his church because that position never existed in the early church.
Do you believe salvation is by faith alone? If so, what passages do you use to support that.
101G
Well-Known Member
Romans 5:1 "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ".
PICJAG.
The rest of my post said I believe he was an apostle and gave scriptural reasons.
You Calvinists are stuck a loop.
No matter how many times your answer you keep repeating because he didn't like the answer.
Where is the word alone? It just says we are justified by faith. If you read vs 9 it says we are justified by the blood. If we use your logic we need to add the word alone which means now we are saved by the blood alone. So which is it...faith or blood because we can’t have them both if we add the word alone. Even my 10 year old knows when you add the word alone it excludes everything else since you can’t have two things “alone”. When some one says I’m driving my car alone we know there is no one else in it. What other verses might you use to teach faith “alone”.
It just says justified by faith because we are justified by faith.
You're claiming the statement is incomplete, which would make it a lie.
But the Bible does not lie.
Calvinism does.
No. we are justified by faith. Just not faith alone. I get tired of people adding the word. The Bible says we are saved by grace. Just not grace alone. So are we saved by blood, grace, and faith? Then it is not by faith alone. The Bible says we are saved by the word. Just not the word alone. Bible says we are saved by confession with our mouth. In Rom 10 we find at least three different things attributed to salvation. So it can’t be by faith alone. 1 Peter 3:21 say baptism doth also now save us. Just not baptism alone. Point is...where is the word alone? It’s not there so why do so many people add it.
You are still calling me a Calvinist? Did you not read my post covering the TULIP. I denied every letter.
This is so rich. Your other thread talks about how nobody will listen to what the Bible plainly says. I just presented 6 or more things we are saved by but you don’t care. You just stick to faith alone. Oh well some people won’t even listen to the sound of their own voice.
Let’s add another.
Paul said that whosoever shall call on the name of the lord shall be saved. But your doctrine teaches we are saved by faith alone without calling.
No you have not.
You are pleading salvation by works. A nonstarter.
We are saved by faith. All the comes after is sanctification.
Learn the difference.
We are saved by blood Ro 5:9
We are saved by hope. Ro 8:24
We are saved by grace. Eph 2:5
We are saved by confession with the mouth Ro 10:10
We are saved by the word. Ja 1:21
We are to call in order to be saved. Ro 10:13
Baptism saves us 1 pet 3:21.
But know...CoreIssue says we are saved by faith alone . I wonder what a 4th grade grammar teacher would say?
Confession isn’t.
Read Jn 12. 42. The chief rulers believed but would not confess.
So true faith leads to water baptism? And without it you don’t have faith since confession and baptism are aspects of faith. I can actually agree with that. A person is not saved by faith unless every aspect is included.
That's correct. As we see in Ephesians 4, among the spiritual gifts listed are those of apostles and prophets (no longer operative) and evangelists, pastors, and teachers. Since there was always a plurality of elders in the apostolic churches (and Paul calls that "the presbytery") the various elders would have one or more of these spiritual gifts, along with some of the other gifts listed elsewhere. So there was never a one-man ministry.
The elders (presbyters) were also pastors and bishops, but shortly after the apostles passed on, one man became "the bishop" over a church, and then gradually over several churches, and the office of elder was changed until today we hardly see the New Testament pattern.
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