Maturity in Christ

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stunnedbygrace

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He has to kind of...wear our defenses down. And at the same time, renew our mind and bring us into agreement with Him. And I'm not sure that ANY man just arrives there instantly. We don't want to give up our "rights." We try to proceed while demanding that men treat us well and fairly. And if they treat us well and fairly, THEN we will agree to treat them well! I even had a conversation with a woman recently who refused to do as our Lord said regarding turning the other cheek and she had numerous defenses. And she was demanding she be treated well and fairly by certain people and those people weren't even believers!

Essentially, she was demanding that they change before she would obey! Which is exactly opposite what our Lord did!

So the woman has a lot of dying to do. But she can't just grit her teeth and do it. That's not how it works. Because then she will just be cleaning the outside of her cup for others to see while inside is still filthy and resentments and anger suppressed.

All you can do is speak with her and point some things out and then leave her to God. You certainly can't get through her defenses. God has to do it.
 

Episkopos

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He has to kind of...wear our defenses down. And at the same time, renew our mind and bring us into agreement with Him. And I'm not sure that ANY man just arrives there instantly. We don't want to give up our "rights." We try to proceed while demanding that men treat us well and fairly. And if they treat us well and fairly, THEN we will agree to treat them well! I even had a conversation with a woman recently who refused to do as our Lord said regarding turning the other cheek and she had numerous defenses. And she was demanding she be treated well and fairly by certain people and those people weren't even believers!

Essentially, she was demanding that they change before she would obey! Which is exactly opposite what our Lord did!

So the woman has a lot of dying to do. But she can't just grit her teeth and do it. That's not how it works. Because then she will just be cleaning the outside of her cup for others to see while inside is still filthy and resentments and anger suppressed.

All you can do is speak with her and point some things out and then leave her to God. You certainly can't get through her defenses. God has to do it.

This is so good! We get distracted by other people and their flesh. But so much of the way of life in Christ is between us and God personally. Can we do things as unto the Lord...and not directly to the person who is troubling us? Can we do things to please the Lord leaving ourselves out of the equation?

I would say that unless we are crucified at that time with Christ...we will succumb at some point to reacting in the flesh. Only dead men don't react. :)

Hence the need to go to God to be crucified anew...or for the very first time!

Added: It reminds me of this joke where a man dies and comes to Peter at the gate to heaven. Peter asks...what have you done to make heaven your destination? The man replies...once I was in a meeting and this lady said "supposably" three times...and I didn't even say anything to her even afterwards. Peter responds..."come on in!" :)
 
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VictoryinJesus

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Again context is critical. Since faith as a grain of mustard seed means just a tiny amount of faith, it is rightly compared in the KJB with unbelief (total lack of faith). On the other hand, since Jesus was in the ship with the disciples, yet they were fearful instead of being calm, they were of "little faith" in assuming that they would perish in the storm.

If I’ve understood you correctly...I’d agree. Matthew 8:25-26
[25] And his disciples came to him , and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish. [26] And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

Every man and woman could say “Lord, save us: we perish.” Without the resurrection of the Son; passing from death into Life given by picking up the cross and following Him...how could there be any saving faith?

Mark 4:38-40
[38] And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say unto him, Master, carest thou not that we perish? [39] And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm. [40] And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?

“master, carest thou not that we perish?”
“...how is it the you have no faith?”
 
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stunnedbygrace

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This is so good! We get distracted by other people and their flesh. But so much of the way of life in Christ is between us and God personally. Can we do things as unto the Lord...and not the person who is troubling us? Can we do things to please the Lord leaving ourselves out of the equation?

I would say that unless we are crucified at that time with Christ...we will succumb at some point ro reacting in the flesh. Only dead men don't react. :)

Hence the need to go to God to be crucified anew...or for the very first time!

Sometimes dead men do react, inwardly though. They experience that first movement of their flesh, that brief flare up.

Satan had me convinced that those flareups are sin. But they aren't. They are just...a tiny hiccup of a death throe.

They are only sin If we advert to them and sink down into them. But instead we learn to say, help Lord, my feet are slipping and then refuse to accommodate or advert to the first motion of our heart toward the bitterness or hurt feelings or wanting to lash back with our tongue. We treat our flesh roughly and put our boot on its throat, because after preaching to others about these things, we don't want to be disqualified ourselves.

I was reading John of the Cross again recently and he said in a letter to one of those under his spiritual direction about not needing to confess first motions. I have found it to be true. Its not us sinning. Its our flesh making a first movement. But he always gives us a way out.

Reminds me of the story of a man during the depression. Another man wandered up to his farm asking for food for his family. The farmer had two pigs hanging in the smokeroom. He said he would give the man a pig. He said, wait here and Ill go get it. In the smokeroom, he began to think he would give the man the smallest pig. Then he said, if you don't shut up, I swear to you, I'll give him both of them!
 
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stunnedbygrace

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This is so good! We get distracted by other people and their flesh. But so much of the way of life in Christ is between us and God personally. Can we do things as unto the Lord...and not directly to the person who is troubling us? Can we do things to please the Lord leaving ourselves out of the equation?

I would say that unless we are crucified at that time with Christ...we will succumb at some point to reacting in the flesh. Only dead men don't react. :)

Hence the need to go to God to be crucified anew...or for the very first time!

Added: It reminds me of this joke where a man dies and comes to Peter at the gate to heaven. Peter asks...what have you done to make heaven your destination? The man replies...once I was in a meeting and this lady said "supposably" three times...and I didn't even say anything to her even afterwards. Peter responds..."come on in!" :)

Concerning your first sentence, we do get distracted by other people and their flesh, because it stirs up our own flesh, and then we want to "put them in their place." If we let it get beyond that first movement of our heart, Satan just won a skirmish.
 

Episkopos

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Sometimes dead men do react, inwardly though. They experience that first movement of their flesh, that brief flare up.

Satan had me convinced that those flareups are sin. But they aren't. They are just...a tiny hiccup of a death throe.

They are only sin If we advert to them and sink down into them. But instead we learn to say, help Lord, my feet are slipping and then refuse to accommodate or advert to the first motion of our heart toward the bitterness or hurt feelings or wanting to lash back with our tongue. We treat our flesh roughly and put our boot on its throat, because after preaching to others about these things, we don't want to be disqualified ourselves.

I was reading John of the Cross again recently and he said in a letter to one of those under his spiritual direction about not needing to confess first motions. I have found it to be true. Its not us sinning. Its our flesh making a first movement. But he always gives us a way out.

Reminds me of the story of a man during the depression. Another man wandered up to his farm asking for food for his family. The farmer had two pigs hanging in the smokeroom. He said he would give the man a pig. He said, wait here and Ill go get it. In the smokeroom, he began to think he would give the man the smallest pig. Then he said, if you don't shut up, I swear to you, I'll give him both of them!

First motions? First impulse? This sounds like a person who has learned self-control more than someone who walks in the crucified life. Dead to sin means that sin has no first impulse...actually NO impulse...because dead is dead. But to have such self-control is a very good thing.

The Christian life is not a discipline as many older believers believed back in the day. It is NOT an imitation. This is not a monkish thing.

It is a restoration to the perfection that God created in Adam before the fall.

BE perfect as God is perfect (teleos). This means we were created in HIS image...and in Christ we return to THAT perfect image. The image of God. This is without sin..any spot or wrinkle of sin. This is through surrender of our lives and entering into His life. No longer I but Christ.

Fallen man is NOT in the image of God...but in the image of this world which is under the power of the devil.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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You think it is being under the power of the devil (or your flesh or the world) to see when your heart makes a move, a bad motion, and to treat your flesh roughly and keep it under?

And do you think Paul didn't still have to keep his flesh under? He did, and he spoke of it. He even went so far as to say he agreed with God and so it wasn't him sinning but was sin in him.

Sometimes, purity of heart is not what men think it to be. A man who admits the truth about himself and his own heart and what it is capable of is walks away approved by God, while a man who thinks he is quite holy and doesn't sin walks away unapproved.

I hid the last piece of pie in the back of the fridge once. I still sometimes do things like that. But I'm ready to give myself a pass on it while thinking about another man's great and outward selfishness!
 

Episkopos

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You think it is being under the power of the devil (or your flesh or the world) to see when your heart makes a move, a bad motion, and to treat your flesh roughly and keep it under?

Paul said in me....that is my flesh...dwells no good thing. So through self-awareness and the level of maturity he had attained he was careful of what he said and did.

I don't believe a person who has entered into the perfect walk can remain there unless also being mature in THAT walk. So we must also look at growing in our weakness...when we are NOT in the Spirit. God is still there but now we must operate by our own faith. We need to exercise our own faith from time to time! :)
And do you think Paul didn't still have to keep his flesh under? He did, and he spoke of it. He even went so far as to say he agreed with God and so it wasn't him sinning but was sin in him.

When a person is not walking in the Spirit...self-awareness is crucial. We may sin at any point in those areas that we are weak in...or that we are naturally strong in. It's all part of becoming mature.
Sometimes, purity of heart is not what men think it to be. A man who admits the truth about himself and his own heart and what it is capable of is walks away approved by God, while a man who thinks he is quite holy and doesn't sin walks away unapproved.

Sure. Things are not always what they seem to be. God is the judge. We can never think we are justified for any reason. Or saved in a final sense. Humility brings grace....if we stop being humble...God will resist us.

I hid the last piece of pie in the back of the fridge once. I still sometimes do things like that. But I'm ready to give myself a pass on it while thinking about another man's great and outward selfishness!

What kind of pie, if you don't mind me asking? :) :rolleyes::p:D
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Funny you should say this isn't a monkish thing. I used to think that monks and nuns like Teresa and John (when I read their counsels and their trials of trust) were exactly no different than me and what I experienced while NOT being cloistered away from the world.

There were all the same exact problems in their houses. The "higher ups" were constantly doing harm to others. When Teresa had Locutions and wanted to know what was going on, she freely spoke with those who were supposed to help guide her and they instead told her it was Satan and scared and disturbed her for a long time.

And as John was dying, a higher up treated him very badly, even on his death bed.

I guess I just don't see that there is any difference in trying to remove from the world or to live in it. Same problems in a monastery as here. Still some who are on the way and some who only think they are on the way and some who have fallen in a ditch for some period of time.

And there's always the added problem of righteousness being that moving target as you say. That is true for each of us, so the target I'm aiming for is not the same target as you and neither of our targets are the same as that guy over there. And I could be much further in the way and actually be less pleasing to God at some point I have tumbled in than a man very new to the way. After all, more and more is expected as more and more is given. And parents are often more pleased with the progress of the baby in the family than they are with the three year old, even though the three year old doesn't poop his pants any more!
 

stunnedbygrace

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Paul said in me....that is my flesh...dwells no good thing. So through self-awareness and the level of maturity he had attained he was careful of what he said and did.

I don't believe a person who has entered into the perfect walk can remain there unless also being mature in THAT walk. So we must also look at growing in our weakness...when we are NOT in the Spirit. God is still there but now we must operate by our own faith. We need to exercise our own faith from time to time! :)


When a person is not walking in the Spirit...self-awareness is crucial. We may sin at any point in those areas that we are weak in...or that we are naturally strong in. It's all part of becoming mature.


Sure. Things are not always what they seem to be. God is the judge. We can never think we are justified for any reason. Or saved in a final sense. Humility brings grace....if we stop being humble...God will resist us.



What kind of pie, if you don't mind me asking? :) :rolleyes::p:D

Yes, I think Paul was careful in what he said and did. All eyes were on him. But he did not consider himself already perfected. I am quite sure Paul found opportunity enough to apologize for his behavior here or there. I mean, he wasn't yet perfected but rather always looked forward and strove to grab that which he had been grabbed for.

Its not really a race of striving for holiness. Its rather a race of trust and these things are added to you, but from start to finish, its all through trust.

Cease all striving and know that I am God.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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What kind of pie, if you don't mind me asking? :) :rolleyes::p:D

It was my famous apple crisp. Made with sour green apples so the sugar is just the right amount and the tart is just the right amount. If you tried it, you would understand why I hid a piece. You would say, never, never will the flesh be able to withstand this apple crisp, it will fall every time. :D
 
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Phoneman777

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It all seems to boil down to faith, always! Some days it feels as if I have faith big as a grapefruit and some days, not so much so...with myself, anyhow, it's consistency :oops:... or lack thereof!
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stunnedbygrace

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You know, in a very real sense, the only help we can be to one another is to help each other build up our trust (edify).

We can focus on a problem we see in someone, but we can only really be a help to them in addressing a lack of trust that we see. Because the problem is always a lack of trust in some area...
 
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stunnedbygrace

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You know, in a very real sense, the only help we can be to one another is to help each other build up our trust (edify).

We can focus on a problem we see in someone, but we can only really be a help to them in addressing a lack of trust that we see. Because the problem is always a lack of trust in some area...

For instance, if a man is struggling mightily with anger or resentments, struggling to control his tongue and always lamenting his failure, he will struggle with it forever if he doesn't eventually give up his striving and say, God will have to see to this, I can't.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Its like...to make the flesh better is never going to work. But making the heart and mind better makes the flesh be in subjection rather than the heart and mind being on subjection to the flesh...
 

icxn

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First motions? First impulse? This sounds like a person who has learned self-control more than someone who walks in the crucified life. Dead to sin means that sin has no first impulse...actually NO impulse...because dead is dead. But to have such self-control is a very good thing.

The Christian life is not a discipline as many older believers believed back in the day. It is NOT an imitation. This is not a monkish thing.
Imo, this side of the grave is better to have these impulses of sin and struggle than to be at peace and prone to presumption (pride). I even have a… monkish little story to illustrate the point:

Abba Poemen said of Abba John the Dwarf that he had prayed God to take his passions away from him so that he might become free from care. He went and told an old man this; 'I find myself in peace, without an enemy,' he said. The old man said to him, 'Go beseech God to stir up warfare so that you may regain the affliction and humility that you used to have, for it is by warfare that the soul makes progress.' So he besought God and when warfare came, he no longer prayed that it might be taken away, but said, 'Lord, give me strength for the fight.' - Sayings of the Desert Fathers
 

stunnedbygrace

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People don't understand HOW one walks in the Spirit. They want to be told HOW. Just tell me how and Ill do it! There is only one way to walk in the Spirit and it is by the same exact way you first received the Spirit!
 

Episkopos

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It was my famous apple crisp. Made with sour green apples so the sugar is just the right amount and the tart is just the right amount. If you tried it, you would understand why I hid a piece. You would say, never, never will the flesh be able to withstand this apple crisp, it will fall every time. :D


I'm actually partial to pumpkin pie! :)
 
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Episkopos

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Imo, this side of the grave is better to have these impulses of sin and struggle than to be at peace and prone to presumption (pride). I even have a… monkish little story to illustrate the point:

Abba Poemen said of Abba John the Dwarf that he had prayed God to take his passions away from him so that he might become free from care. He went and told an old man this; 'I find myself in peace, without an enemy,' he said. The old man said to him, 'Go beseech God to stir up warfare so that you may regain the affliction and humility that you used to have, for it is by warfare that the soul makes progress.' So he besought God and when warfare came, he no longer prayed that it might be taken away, but said, 'Lord, give me strength for the fight.' - Sayings of the Desert Fathers


There were many good monks...with a whole lot of determination and discipline. Like the man who lived on top of a pole for many years. (Simeon Stylites lived atop a pole for 37 years) He was seen as a saint by many who would flock to see him...if perhaps they would get a glimpse or hear a few words.

But what I'm speaking of is not by human effort. The work is all God and there is no pride in it because you realize it isn't you. A person who walks in resurrection power is himself crucified during the whole time. So any recourse to pride would mean a coming off the cross to resume a life in the power of the flesh.

Grace is a gift...not by discipline or a better version of oneself.
 
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