Know what this means???

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Willie T

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“He alone is a fit witness to himself who is known only by himself.” This knowledge, then, if we would leave to God, we must conceive of him as he has made himself known, and in our inquiries make application to no other quarter than his word. On this subject we have five homilies of Chrysostom against the Anomoei (De Incomprehensit Dei Natura), in which he endeavoured, but in vain, to check the presumption of the sophists, and curb their garrulity. They showed no more modesty here than they are wont to do in everything else. The very unhappy results of their temerity should be a warning to us to bring more docility than acumen to the discussion of this question, never to attempt to search after God anywhere but in his sacred word, and never to speak or think of him farther than we have it for our guide. But if the distinction of Father, Son, and Spirit, subsisting in the one Godhead (certainly a subject of great difficulty), gives more trouble and annoyance to some intellects than is meet, let us remember that the human mind enters a labyrinth whenever it indulges its curiosity, and thus submit to be guided by the divine oracles, how much soever the mystery may be beyond our reach."

Well, I'm not sure I do either.

But, it was written by one of the greatest men in the Christian movement. A man many of you follow, John Calvin.

I recently began reading the four books of The Institutes, (this coming from book #1) that he wrote. Brother, what a jumbled mass of confusion.
 
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Episkopos

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“He alone is a fit witness to himself who is known only by himself.” This knowledge, then, if we would leave to God, we must conceive of him as he has made himself known, and in our inquiries make application to no other quarter than his word. On this subject we have five homilies of Chrysostom against the Anomoei (De Incomprehensit. Dei Natura), in which he endeavoured, but in vain, to check the presumption of the sophists, and curb their garrulity. They showed no more modesty here than they are wont to do in everything else. The very unhappy results of their temerity should be a warning to us to bring more docility than acumen to the discussion of this question, never to attempt to search after God anywhere but in his sacred word, and never to speak or think of him farther than we have it for our guide. But if the distinction of Father, Son, and Spirit, subsisting in the one Godhead (certainly a subject of great difficulty), gives more trouble and annoyance to some intellects than is meet, let us remember that the human mind enters a labyrinth whenever it indulges its curiosity, and thus submit to be guided by the divine oracles, how much soever the mystery may be beyond our reach."

Well, I'm not sure I do either.

But, it was written by one of the greatest men in the Christian movement. A man many of you follow, John Calvin.

I recently began reading the four books of The Institutes, (this coming from book #1) that he wrote. Brother, what a jumbled mass of confusion.

Remember that his works are translated from French. Jean Calvin. Some things are lost in the translation. i think he is talking about the inner witness....as in...I know that I know...or something like that. Good luck.
 
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Willie T

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Remember that his works are translated from French. Jean Calvin. Some things are lost in the translation. i think he is talking about the inner witness....as in...I know that I know...or something like that. Good luck.
I've had the books for quite some time. And, even as much as I love to read, I have to admit that I have tried (unsuccessfully) to wade through the volume on at least six different occasions.
 

ScottA

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Hyperbole.

I am suspicious of flowery excess, when the greatest words ever penned have come to us from the Source in elementary fashion.
 

SkyWriting

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“He alone is a fit witness to himself who is known only by himself.” This knowledge, then, if we would leave to God, we must conceive of him as he has made himself known, and in our inquiries make application to no other quarter than his word. On this subject we have five homilies of Chrysostom against the Anomoei (De Incomprehensit. Dei Natura), in which he endeavoured, but in vain, to check the presumption of the sophists, and curb their garrulity. They showed no more modesty here than they are wont to do in everything else. The very unhappy results of their temerity should be a warning to us to bring more docility than acumen to the discussion of this question, never to attempt to search after God anywhere but in his sacred word, and never to speak or think of him farther than we have it for our guide. But if the distinction of Father, Son, and Spirit, subsisting in the one Godhead (certainly a subject of great difficulty), gives more trouble and annoyance to some intellects than is meet, let us remember that the human mind enters a labyrinth whenever it indulges its curiosity, and thus submit to be guided by the divine oracles, how much soever the mystery may be beyond our reach."Well, I'm not sure I do either.But, it was written by one of the greatest men in the Christian movement. A man many of you follow, John Calvin.I recently began reading the four books of The Institutes, (this coming from book #1) that he wrote. Brother, what a jumbled mass of confusion.

Yes, Jesus knows the Father and the Helper, The Spirit, very well. Got it.

Colossians 1:26-27
The mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints. To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
 

Willie T

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Yes, Jesus knows the Father and the Helper, The Spirit, very well. Got it.

Colossians 1:26-27
The mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints. To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
Yeah, I see he confused you, too. LOL
 

icxn

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The distinction of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is a great mystery only known to God, hence God, through His word, is the only fit witness to explain it to us albeit not fully, but as much as our human limitations allow. Therefore it is wise to curb our curiosity and exercise modesty in our inquiries of such theological questions (Ecclesiastes 7:16).

No?
 

Nancy

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The distinction of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is a great mystery only known to God, hence God, through His word, is the only fit witness to explain it to us albeit not fully, but as much as our human limitations allow. Therefore it is wise to curb our curiosity and exercise modesty in our inquiries of such theological questions (Ecclesiastes 7:16).

No?

Agreed. I get peace from knowing I will NEVER know the totality of our Creator, because He is good in ALL His ways so, it just does not matter that I know it all...♥
 
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amadeus

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The distinction of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is a great mystery only known to God, hence God, through His word, is the only fit witness to explain it to us albeit not fully, but as much as our human limitations allow. Therefore it is wise to curb our curiosity and exercise modesty in our inquiries of such theological questions (Ecclesiastes 7:16).

No?
We must strive to do that which God leads us to do. If He desires it of us, will He not make it a possibility?

"And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:27

"To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:" Col 1:27

Some will NOT be so led or directed and when they are not, would it not be best to leave it in the hands of God?
 

Willie T

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I just thought I would give you another little taste of how Calvin viewed himself in writing these books for the rest of us. (Frankly, I might have slapped the arrogant SOB up 'side the head if I had ever met him.)

"In order that my Readers may be the better able to profit by the present work, I am desirous briefly to point out the advantage which they may derive from it. For by so doing I will show them the end at which they ought to aim, and to which they ought to give their attention in reading it."

"Although the Holy Scriptures contain a perfect doctrine, to which nothing can be added — our Lord having been pleased therein to unfold the infinite treasures of his wisdom — still every person, not intimately acquainted with them, stands in need of some guidance and direction, as to what he ought to look for in them, that he may not wander up and down, but pursue a certain path, and so attain the end to which the Holy Spirit invites him."

"Hence it is the duty of those who have received from God more light than others to assist the simple in this matter, and, as it were, lend them their hand to guide and assist them in finding the sum of what God has been pleased to teach us in his word. Now, this cannot be better done in writing than by treating in succession of the principal matters which are comprised in Christian philosophy. For he who understands these will be prepared to make more progress in the school of God in one day than any other person in three months, inasmuch as he, in a great measure, knows to what he should refer each sentence, and has a rule by which to test whatever is presented to him."

"Seeing, then, how necessary it was in this manner to aid those who desire to be instructed in the doctrine of salvation, I have endeavoured, according to the ability which God has given me, to employ myself in so doing, and with this view have composed the present book. And first I wrote it in Latin, that it might be serviceable to all studious persons, of what nation soever they might be; afterwards, desiring to communicate any fruit which might be in it to my French countrymen, I translated it into our own tongue. I dare not bear too strong a testimony in its favour, and declare how profitable the reading of it will be, lest I should seem to prize my own work too highly. However I may promise this much, that it will be a kind of key opening up to all the children of God a right and ready access to the understanding of the sacred volume. Wherefore, should our Lord give me henceforth means and opportunity of composing some Commentaries, I will use the greatest possible brevity, as there will be no occasion to make long digressions, seeing that I have in a manner deduced at length all the articles which pertain to Christianity."

"And since we are bound to acknowledge that all truth and sound doctrine proceed from God, I will venture boldly to declare what I think of this work, acknowledging it to be God’s work rather than mine. To him, indeed, the praise due to it must be ascribed. My opinion of the work then is this: I exhort all, who reverence the word of the Lord, to read it, and diligently imprint it on their memory, if they would, in the first place, have a summary of Christian doctrine, and, in the second place, an introduction to the profitable reading both of the Old and New Testament. When they shall have done so, they will know by experience that I have not wished to impose upon them with words. Should anyone be unable to comprehend all that is contained in it, he must not, however, give it up in despair; but continue always to read on, hoping that one passage will give him a more familiar exposition of another. Above all things, I would recommend that recourse be had to Scripture in considering the proofs which I adduce from it."
 
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Nancy

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I just thought I would give you another little taste of how Calvin viewed himself in writing these books for the rest of us. (Frankly, I might have slapped the arrogant SOB up 'side the head if I had ever met him.)

"In order that my Readers may be the better able to profit by the present work, I am desirous briefly to point out the advantage which they may derive from it. For by so doing I will show them the end at which they ought to aim, and to which they ought to give their attention in reading it."

"Although the Holy Scriptures contain a perfect doctrine, to which nothing can be added — our Lord having been pleased therein to unfold the infinite treasures of his wisdom — still every person, not intimately acquainted with them, stands in need of some guidance and direction, as to what he ought to look for in them, that he may not wander up and down, but pursue a certain path, and so attain the end to which the Holy Spirit invites him."

"Hence it is the duty of those who have received from God more light than others to assist the simple in this matter, and, as it were, lend them their hand to guide and assist them in finding the sum of what God has been pleased to teach us in his word. Now, this cannot be better done in writing than by treating in succession of the principal matters which are comprised in Christian philosophy. For he who understands these will be prepared to make more progress in the school of God in one day than any other person in three months, inasmuch as he, in a great measure, knows to what he should refer each sentence, and has a rule by which to test whatever is presented to him."

"Seeing, then, how necessary it was in this manner to aid those who desire to be instructed in the doctrine of salvation, I have endeavoured, according to the ability which God has given me, to employ myself in so doing, and with this view have composed the present book. And first I wrote it in Latin, that it might be serviceable to all studious persons, of what nation soever they might be; afterwards, desiring to communicate any fruit which might be in it to my French countrymen, I translated it into our own tongue. I dare not bear too strong a testimony in its favour, and declare how profitable the reading of it will be, lest I should seem to prize my own work too highly. However I may promise this much, that it will be a kind of key opening up to all the children of God a right and ready access to the understanding of the sacred volume. Wherefore, should our Lord give me henceforth means and opportunity of composing some Commentaries, I will use the greatest possible brevity, as there will be no occasion to make long digressions, seeing that I have in a manner deduced at length all the articles which pertain to Christianity."

"And since we are bound to acknowledge that all truth and sound doctrine proceed from God, I will venture boldly to declare what I think of this work, acknowledging it to be God’s work rather than mine. To him, indeed, the praise due to it must be ascribed. My opinion of the work then is this: I exhort all, who reverence the word of the Lord, to read it, and diligently imprint it on their memory, if they would, in the first place, have a summary of Christian doctrine, and, in the second place, an introduction to the profitable reading both of the Old and New Testament. When they shall have done so, they will know by experience that I have not wished to impose upon them with words. Should anyone be unable to comprehend all that is contained in it, he must not, however, give it up in despair; but continue always to read on, hoping that one passage will give him a more familiar exposition of another. Above all things, I would recommend that recourse be had to Scripture in considering the proofs which I adduce from it."

To employ HIMSELF in so doing. Please. The Gospel is written where a child can understand it.
"Hence it is the duty of those who have received from God more light than others to assist the simple in this matter, and, as it were, lend them their hand to guide and assist them in finding the sum of what God has been pleased to teach us in his word."
We are just simpletons who have to have a (dastardly) man explain the things of God to us. Wow. It is no wonder that the "intelligentsia" are attracted to such a horrid doctrine. SMH.
 
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icxn

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We must strive to do that which God leads us to do. If He desires it of us, will He not make it a possibility?
...
Some will NOT be so led or directed and when they are not, would it not be best to leave it in the hands of God
?
An absolute yes to both questions! I would also add that we shouldn’t worry about not knowing the answer to theological investigations as that of the OP, especially when we have so many other shortcomings and sins we need to correct. As a certain wise man said, “When our soul leaves this world we shall not be blamed for not having worked miracles, or for not having been theologians or contemplatives. But we shall certainly have to give an account to God of why we have not mourned for our sins.”
 

ScottA

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The distinction of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is a great mystery only known to God, hence God, through His word, is the only fit witness to explain it to us albeit not fully, but as much as our human limitations allow. Therefore it is wise to curb our curiosity and exercise modesty in our inquiries of such theological questions (Ecclesiastes 7:16).

No?
While I do not consider myself wise and all-knowing, we do live in the age of when we have been promised to be lead into "all truth." As such, I cannot bring myself to say "I don't know", when I know God, and when I know that Christ is in me. In that knowledge, I understand the Trinity perfectly...and can easily explain it:

Even I am Me, Myself, and I. I am. I am a Father, I am a Son, and I am the man whom others know me to be by what I do. Certainly, God is all this and more.

Was that too flowery? :)
 
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Nancy

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While I do not consider myself wise and all-knowing, we do live in the age of when we have been promised to be lead into "all truth." As such, I cannot bring myself to say "I don't know", when I know God, and when I know that Christ is in me. In that knowledge, I understand the Trinity perfectly...and can easily explain it:

Even I am Me, Myself, and I. I am. I am a Father, I am a Son, and I am the man whom others know me to be by what I do. Certainly, God is all this and more.

Was that too flowery? :)

Nah, not too flowery at all, but, look out, Bbyrd might call you a pantywaist lol.
 
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