The Restrainer
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CoreIssue
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The Bible says we are saved by faith alone.
Salvation is a gift by the grace of God through faith.
Protestant is a meaningless label. Who are these so-called Protestants protesting?
I am neither Protestant or Catholic. I am Christian.
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Does it? What is the "Kingdom" that is "upon us" that Christ speaks of in Matt 12? What is the "Kingdom" that is handed over to the Father upon his return and final defeat of death in 1 Cor 15?
And IF death is finally defeated as the LAST enemy (not second last) when we receive our resurrection bodies AT Christ's second coming, and Revelation 20 tells us that Death is tossed into the Lake of Fire AFTER Satan has already been so (which is AFTER the Millennium)...then I fail to see how there is a 'time' in scripture for an 'inbetween' 1000 years.
Because in essence, what that would mean is that death would NOT be defeated at our resurrection and Christ's coming. It would last for another 1000 years before being tossed into the Lake of Fire. And it would mean that Satan would also be an 'issue' past Christ's second coming. So...most of 1 Cor 15 would loose it's weight. Death would not be defeated...and when it was, it would not be defeated as the LAST enemy.
So, until you can give reasonable, considered biblical evidence why death gets a reprieve past Christ's second advent when 1 Cor 15 says otherwise, I think I'll take it's word over yours.
It's not imaginary if the bible speaks of it. If you do not have "ears to hear" that is not my problem.
Christ tells people clearly that his Kingdom is "not of this world". He says that the "Kingdom is upon you", he tells us that when he returns and defeats death, at that point ALL enemies, powers and authorities will have been conquered and he will then "hand the Kingdom to the Father". We are told we are a "Kingdom of Priests to our God", and we shall "reign on the earth."
The bible only references the 1000 years in one passage. Considered how often and in how many other places we are told that the Kingdom is NOW...I wouldn't feel so confident, if I were you, that there's going to be a magical 'inbetween' period that in fact serves no real biblical purpose.
If, when Christ comes, people are resurrected to either life or judgement...and that includes every soul; living or dead, and every power is already under Christ's feet, included Satan and death, and we know that at his return the cosmos is burned up and the creation sees the redemption of all things...which tells us that the remaking of all things occur and ushes us into the eternal state....why do we NEED a 1000 year reign, and who do you propose it is for?
As Christians we know that life comes with Satanic persecution. And we accept it, because we know that physical suffering isn't what we fear:
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. -Matthew 10:28
This life isn't about being free from persecution and death. And our "mission" in life isn't about comfort, wealth or ease. It's about the gospel. In our lives and in others lives. And in this, Satan is powerless to stop us. The more he tries to stop the gospel, the more it advances. His lies hold no weight.
So....in places like Iran, or North Korea...where it is most dangerous to BE a Christian, were physical persecution...let us say...the lion is roaring and devouring the most....I don't think Satan IS actually laughing...not at all. Because in these places, the gospel of Jesus Christ is spreading like wild fire. "And the gates of hell will not resist".
Phoneman777
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Yes, we are saved "by grace (of God, not the priesthood) through faith (in Jesus' sacrifice, not "the merits of the good works of the Mary, Jesus, and the saints") alone".
The claim of Catholicism that the Father's "extreme satisfaction with Jesus' life of good works" is what led Him to arbitrarily grant the priesthood the power to extend or withhold grace to us - apart from any consideration of Calvary whatsoever - is nothing more than a Christianized form of the same denial of the absolute necessity of blood atonement, which denial is at the core of occult, Luciferian religion...
because Satan can't stand the fact that God soundly disproved as patently false every single accusation hurled against Him - from since before the war in heaven until Jesus breathed His last - at Calvary.
Especially when instead of protesting, we champion Jesuit eschatology.
Our beliefs define who we are. Your support of Jesuit Ribera's 15th century Futurists ideas speaks for itself.
Phoneman777
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If you're such an astute student of history, then why can't you see the Jesuits introduced Jesuit Futurism to the world as a "diversionary tactic" to deflect the sound Biblical accusations by the Protestant Reformation that the papacy is Antichrist - by way of placing Antichrist into the past (Jesuit Alcazar's "Preterism") or the future (Jesuit Ribera's Futurism)?
You have chosen to trust in the eschatological conclusions of an organization which is so blinded by Lucifer that they champion Lucifer's greatest deception to ever sweep over the world: that blood atonement is a wholly unnecessary component for the salvation of men.
And you deny the Biblically established, more than plausible, sound eschatological conclusions of Protestant Historicism because you're too proud to own up to any of this.
You still haven't answered how there can possibly be "two events in history where Jesus comes as a thief in the night".
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There is no reference in that link to what you claimed I quoted from EGW. What I said...
Is simply a general overview of history and the religious intolerance displayed throughout the ages, even within Protestantism. That same spirit of intolerance and bigotry still persists in those who are righteous in their own eyes thinking they have need of nothing. People such as this guy, who responded by claiming...
Which he could not prove because when asked to do so, he offered something totally unrelated and irrelevant, but compounding and accentuating his own prejudice and resistance to anything that rocks his boat.
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
Jesus never gave anyone the power to withhold or give salvation.
You keep repeating the same lie that I support Jesuits.
I posted the whole thread disproving that. You've never even commented on it.
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
Yet again, I already refuted your claim on a whole thread. A thread to which you have not commented.
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
But you endorse and support her claims. It does not require a verbatim quote to see that.
A classic cult technique. Make the claim without addressing it directly.
Tried and I that the SDA is White centered.
Davy
Well-Known Member
What genocide? Who are you listening to? Are you speaking of the "great tribulation" Jesus taught?
What your preachers apparently aren't telling you is what the future "great tribulation" is actually going to be like per God's Holy Writ. The worse descriptions of it are by those selling the Pre-tribulational Rapture theory.
The time of "great tribulation" is going to be a time of persecution only... upon Christ's elect among Christ's Church that remain faithful, all the way to His 2nd coming. Revelation shows only 2 Churches (candlesticks) out of 7 will remain faithful. The rest will fall away and be deceived into thinking the coming pseudo-Christ will be our Lord Jesus having returned.
Already today, there are many Churches aligned with the orthodox Jews getting materials ready in Jerusalem to build their next temple and start up sacrifices again. I recall a company back in 1997 in Tennessee called Jesus, Inc. that was sending the orthodox Jews red heifers. Some Churches have been sending the Jews funds for a long time. Those Churches think by doing that it will usher in Christ's 2nd coming sooner. But when the pseudo-Christ that comes first shows up, who will those be told it is? They will be told that is Messiah, the one the Jews have been expecting. The Christian leaders of those Churches will simply proclaim that false-Messiah as our Lord Jesus. And that is what the falling away (apostasia) is about that Apostle Paul was talking about in 2 Thess.2.
Davy
Well-Known Member
He will claim to be Messiah, which is where the name Christ originates from. Messiah (Hebrew mashiyach) means 'anointed'. That is the name the orthodox Jews recognize as the Biblical Messiah.
I don't follow why you're struggling with this. The unbelieving Jews simply reject Jesus of Nazareth as... The Messiah. They didn't reject The Messiah of Scriptures, they simply rejected Jesus born of Mary as Messiah. They instead treated our Lord Jesus as a seditionist come to overthrow their government.
Davy
Well-Known Member
You're just following a DOCTRINE OF MEN, not the actual written Scripture.
I just showed why Bible scholars like Bullinger and James Strong showed that Matt.24:23-26 context is about a SINGULAR false Messiah. And the icing on the cake further proof is how Jesus showed in those verses that false Messiah will work great signs and wonders that if possible, would deceive even His elect. That is different than the earlier Matt.24:5 warning of 'many' coming that only say... they are Christ.
Matt 24:4-5
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you."
5 For many shall come in My name, saying, "I am Christ"; and shall deceive many.
KJV
That warning above is DIFFERENT than the one below. Jesus gave that warning during the time of the beginning of sorrows, not the actual tribulation time which He warns of later at verse 21. In the above, those are only saying, "I am Christ". There are no miracles associated with those. Those are not associated with the later mention of the "abomination of desolation" event from Daniel. Those are like the religious hoaxes like Moony, etc., that have claimed to be Jesus throughout the centuries, and just do a bunch of talking, but no great signs and wonders that would almost deceive Christ's elect.
Matt 24:23-26
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
KJV
That Scripture there at verse 23-26 is DIFFERENT. Jesus gave this warning right after He warned of the time of "great tribulation". And there He is warning of a pseudochristos that others... will say is Christ, and he will work great signs and wonders that would almost deceive Christ's elect. If you can't understand this difference, then you are already deceived and prepared to fall away to the first supernatural messiah that shows up, which will not be our Lord Jesus Christ. The working of supernatural miracles is set for the tribulation in our near future.
1 John 2:18
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
KJV
That first phrase with "antichrist" is SINGULAR. Those brethren John said had ALREADY HEARD that antichrist shall come. WHERE... did they first hear that? From Jesus...
John 14:30
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.
KJV
Jesus said that just prior to His being delivered up to be crucified. The prince of this world of course is Satan. Many try to say Satan was bound by Jesus' death on the cross, but that is not true. Jesus there was warning that Satan, the prince of this world, is coming. And that is what the subject of all these Scriptures about the coming singular Antichrist is about.
John 12:31
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
KJV
That's another Scripture often wrongly understood. That casting out did not happen when our Lord Jesus was crucified. This casting out has not happened yet. It is associated with the future tribulation time when Satan and his angels are cast out of the heavenly dimension down to our earth in OUR earthly dimension...
Rev 12:7-9
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
KJV
Context is critical. What did Christ mean by this: But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
What He meant was that He Himself as King-Messiah was manifesting the power of the Kingdom of God. He preached the Gospel of the Kingdom because He was the King. But Christ did not establish His visible, physical and spiritual Kingdom at that time. The King of the Jews was crucified at the behest of the Jews.
This is the eternal Kingdom of God on earth AFTER the Second Coming, and AFTER the Millennium, and AFTER the New Heavens and the New Earth have bee established. So there is a sequence of events from Revelation 19-21 before the Kingdom of God is handed over to the Father.
Now you are mixing apples and oranges. What applies to the children of God does NOT apply to the unbelieving and the ungodly. So the last enemy of the children of God -- physical death -- is destroyed at the Resurrection/Rapture. The saints who passed on receive immortal glorified "spiritual bodies" (free from earthly limitations) whereas the ones who are alive are transformed, perfected, and also received glorified bodies.
However, since there will be no more sin and death after the New Heavens and New Earth are established, Death and Hades are metaphorically cast into the Lake of Fire. This means that the physical death of sinners and their presence in Hades will be abolished. No more death means no more need for Hades.
So the biblical sequence of events is as follows:
1. The Church Age (the Kingdom of God invisible)
2. The Resurrection/Rapture (the last enemy of Christians destroyed)
3. The Second Coming of Christ with power and great glory
4. The establishment of the Millennium (prelude to the Kingdom on earth)
5. The Great White Throne Judgment
6. The abolishing of Death and Hades (the end of sin and death on earth)
7. The New Heavens and the New Earth
8. The eternal visible Kingdom of God on earth
This pertains to the Church Age. But the Church Age ends with the Resurrection/Rapture (see above).
And it is a very important and critical passage and within the context of events which take place AFTER the Second Coming of Christ. The Millennium is simply a prelude to the eternal Kingdom of God on earth.
The Kingdom is now only in the spiritual sense in that those who have been born again are within the Kingdom of God during the Church Age. The Kingdom is not visible since "the Kingdom of God is within you". That does not change the fact that there will be A LITERAL, VISIBLE, TANGIBLE, PHYSICAL AND SPIRITUAL KINGDOM OF GOD ON EARTH IN THE FUTURE. There is an overwhelming number of Scriptures to support this.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Problem is, the Antichrist of God's Word hasn't even arrived yet today.
The pope is not the coming Antichrist. No, I'm not a Catholic.
The coming Antichrist will be Satan himself, in person, right here on earth in plain sight.
These Revelation 12 Scriptures are not about the past; they haven't happened yet today...
Rev 12:7-12
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Some try to say that casting out event happened back at Satan's original rebellion. Not so. This is a still future event to come. The next verses linked with it shows why...
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Jesus had not been born through Mary yet when Satan first rebelled against God and was cast to hell in the beginning. And these saints who overcome Satan by the Blood of The Lamb (Jesus) could not take place unless Christ had already died on the cross. Thus it's simple, the time of this casting out is not yet today.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
KJV
The Rev.12:8 verse says this about Satan being cast out of Heaven, "... neither was their place found any more in heaven." There are only 2 different dimensions of existence written of in God's Word, this earthly one we live in, and the Heavenly one where God and the angels are, including Satan and his angels and the abode of hell. So that is showing us that Satan and his angels, de facto, are coming here to our earthly dimension. All eyes will see them. And that's the Antichrist God's Word warns us about.
Satan likes to work through men's doctrines, our Lord Jesus warned us about that (Matt.16), and the idea that the pope is the Antichrist is one of his doctrines. It is designed to get Christ's servants astray from God's Word that shows Satan, the dragon, as the coming Antichrist at the end of this world.
Phoneman777
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I think you're interpreting the use of singular pronouns to rigidly. Plenty of times the Bible writers used a singular pronoun or person to refer to entire nations or tribes.
The only way you could be right is if there was no other place in Scripture where the Antichrist power is referred to as something other than a singular man...which it does. The "Little Horn" which we all recognize is VERY Antichrist by comparison of it with the Beast of Revelation 13, is most definitely referred to as a "kingdom"...which plurality proves that Jesus' and Paul's use of singular pronouns are symbolic.
BTW, do you realize you are indicting every single Protestant Reformer who many times died in flames or by beheading or some other grizzly means for their positions on Antichrist...as "following doctrine of men"?
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Except this is clearly something he also bestowed authority upon his followers to do also.
The seventy-two returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!” And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you. -Luke 10:17–19
So while Christ is clearly King, and these things have come by and through his authority, there is no doubt that because we are IN him, and part of his Kingdom, we too share in these things, this authority.
So...your reasoning doesn't pan out here, I'm sorry.
Wait...so, the Kingdom that Christ "hands over to the Father" in 1 Cor 15, is not established until AFTER the Millennium? Until after even the new earth and heavens have been restored?
The rather huge problem with that notion, is you're ignoring what the passage, and other clear passages in the NT tell us.
Look:
But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. -1 Corinthians 15:23–26
We see "the end" comes, when this Kingdom is handed over. And it is handed over after Christ has destroyed 'every rule and authority and power'. How does this happen? Paul tells us: "for he must reign UNTIL he has put ALL his enemies under his feet.....the LAST enemy to be destroyed is death."
Okay...just consider it: Eph 1:20-21 tells us that even now seated above EVERY rule, power and authority and dominion is has already "put all things under his feet" in "this age and the one to come". Only the very stubborn or very...spiritually deaf...would deny that these verses speak of Christ's current triumph over every possible power in the universe. He won that upon the cross.
Then when we come back to 1 Cor 15 we see quite clearly that death...the LAST enemy...death is the last, not Satan....it is defeated when we receive our imperishable bodies. That is Paul's CLEAR, explicit intent when he writes "Where, O death, is your sting?" Death IS finally defeated in that moment, it's ravages finally done away with. It does not 'hang around' for another 1000 years, waiting for Satan's final hurrar at the end of a 1000 years, or for the dribble of people dying throughout it.
So...how does Christ 'hand over' a Kingdom that is done so specifically when death is defeated as the LAST enemy...if this Kingdom doesn't even start to at least 1000 years AFTER the bible tells us that death is, in fact, defeated?
Does the bible make this distinction? You seem quick to, but I wouldn't be so hasty. What about other verses that speak of both just and unjust being resurrected and judged at the same time? What about verses that speak of the just and unjust being judged at the same time? What makes you think that suddenly we can only apply this reference to the resurrection to believers? Is there a different verse that makes it clear that unbelievers have their own, special time? Because unless you can produce one, I believe I'll stick with the bible verses that tell me it's going to be the same event:
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. -Daniel 12:2
Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. -John 5:28–29
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. -Revelation 20:12–13
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats....And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” -Matthew 25:31–32,46
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Okay...I think this is a somewhat of a simplified was to describe how death "goes away"...one that doesn't do nearly enough justice to the significance and weight of it, considering what it cost Christ to defeat it for us....but...
I still don't see your point. Sure...the bible says that when Christ comes again, death and Hades will be done away with. So....? It doesn't really have an impact on your argument on timing, though, or the fact that the resurrection 'event' happens only to God's people. The resurrection of "Life"...sure. But, as the scriptures above show, the bible clearly teaches that "an hour is coming" when both just AND unjust will awaken from the graves. Put that together with Matt 25 and Rev 20 that shows both alive just and unjust as well as dead just and unjust being dealt with AT THE SAME TIME....again...your argument seems thin.
Your biblical passages to back this up?
Mmm....except...there's really nothing within scripture that gives you guys the authority or even blueprints to start dividing up these "kingdoms", is there? It's a bit like the second coming, that you seem to feel free to divide into two sections, which is also not specifically stated anywhere in scripture.
Without anything to give us any clue that Christ or the apostles are talking about "Kingdom 1" or "Kingdom 2", you're basically just making it up to suit your doctrine...and to be honest, I find that dodgy in the extreme.
I mean...if you HAVE scriptures that clearly point out that there are clear differences between these Kingdoms, I invite you to share them.
Personally, I think the bible is clear: It's one Kingdom, and it stretches between 2 ages: "this age" and "the age to come". Those are the only time references scripture gives us to 'work' with. Going beyond that leads to problematic doctrines.
All of scripture is important and critical. But not if we twist it's meaning and then run with it.
If I could find even one other reference to this time period being called for in scripture, I'd concede it to be possible....probably not probable...but possible. But there just isn't. Every other passage that is pulled out and shown in triumph is simply not about a millennial period. Isiah 65 is a good example that people love to use. Ha! They say...it talks about death! Therefore it cannot be about the eternal state!
Except...the passage OUTRIGHT STATES that is IS. "Behold! I create a New Heavens and a New Earth, and the old things HAVE PASSED AWAY."
As an exegete, it is much more believable to read this 'a young man will die at a hundred' to be using language to paint a picture of how something could (or could not) be. Just as scripture uses "sleeping" for death, so too it's more believable to think the author is using words here poetically to describe a state of being far beyond what his readers are used to. It's more believable, than to dismiss the clear and outright beginning of the verses.
It's sort of funny to me that you can say that "the kingdom is now in the spiritual sense", but then you dismiss verses like "my kingdom is not of this earth". How can you NOT see the connection here?
And...while I have Christ saying "my kingdom is NOT of this earth"....do YOU have any scriptures to back up this "literal, visible, tangible, physical" Kingdom on earth? One that is NOT the eternal Kingdom?
Davy
Well-Known Member
That's what you... say, just to keep to your tradition.
I gave you explicit Scripture CONTEXT examples of what the coming false one is about with a singular pseudo-Christ, and you resort to pronoun interpretation BS.
Phoneman777
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I gave you explicit examples of where the Bible says the Antichrist is a "horn" and a "beast" which the Bible says plainly are KINGDOMS - not singular men.
"Beasts" represent both kingdoms and a man in the Bible. Horns represent power in both kingdoms and the Little Horn of Daniel. But both Daniel, Revelation and other Scriptures make it clear that the Antichrist is a Satan-energized king, not merely a kingdom (which would make no sense).
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