Maturity in Christ

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Episkopos

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There is no salvation after death.

Again you express Gnostic thinking.


Such pride and baloney! You would have Ananias begging in salvation. You would ignore every account to please the minuscule view you have from watching a video.

I hope no one is taking anything you say seriously. That would a real loss to them.
 
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CoreIssue

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Such pride and baloney! You would have Ananias begging in salvation. You would ignore every account to please the miniscule view you have from watching a video.

I hope no one is anything you say seriously. That would a real loss to them.
The Bible does not tell us if he was saved or not.

Just he lied to Christ and died for it.

His spiritual condition was locked in at his death, what ever it was.

You have no grounds to say he was or was not.

And you sure have no grounds to claim there is salvation after death.
 

VictoryinJesus

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How did Abel know that his sacrifice was received by God?...the fire came down!
How did Cain know his sacrifice was NOT received by God?...the fire didn't come down!

would like to read it again but can’t find the passage about the fire coming down for Abel’s sacrifice and not Cain’s?
 
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Episkopos

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would like to read it again but can’t find the passage about the fire coming down for Abel’s sacrifice and not Cain’s?

It's not stated. But things are repeated elsewhere in the bible. So we see how the sacrifices of Elijah were accepted and how the sacrifices of Baal were not.

Otherwise how would anyone know whose were accepted by God or not?

It is the same thing with strange fire. Temple fires had to be lit from above. If a man started the fire...it was strange fire.

The fire comes down
Look at Pentecost and the sacrifice of theirs! Were they not recipients of fire from heaven?
 
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CoreIssue

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It's not stated. But things are repeated elsewhere in the bible. So we see how the sacrifices of Elijah were accepted and how the sacrifices of Baal were not.

Otherwise how would anyone know whose were accepted by God or not.

It is the same thing with strange fire. Temple fires had to be lit from above. If a man started the fire...it was strange fire.

The fire comes down
Look at Pentecost and the sacrifice of theirs! Were they not recipients of fire from heaven?
The Bible makes it clear able knew his sacrifice was accepted and came new his was rejected.

Doesn't matter how they knew as long as they knew? No.
 

stunnedbygrace

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The Bible does not tell us if he was saved or not.

Just he lied to Christ and died for it.

His spiritual condition was locked in at his death, what ever it was.

You have no grounds to say he was or was not.

And you sure have no grounds to claim there is salvation after death.

There actually are some verses that seem they could suggest salvation after death. Its not like there aren't some suggestions of it in scripture.

Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you've paid the last farthing.

And there's that whole odd thing of, it will be better in the judgement for Sodom than for you. (That one is puzzling to everyone who reads it, isn't it?)

And then there's the whole being beaten with less blows or more blows thing.

So really, it's not as if a man is completely nuts for seeing that there's something there to suggest even more kindness/grace in God than we are aware of.
 

stunnedbygrace

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im really excited because I think (if no one has any emergency or need today) that I will be allowed to spend the day talking with you guys, reading scripture, eating, resting. I'm just really excited. Because you guys are my favorite people to spend time with. :)
I need this rest.
 

icxn

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But what I'm speaking of is not by human effort. The work is all God and there is no pride in it because you realize it isn't you. A person who walks in resurrection power is himself crucified during the whole time. So any recourse to pride would mean a coming off the cross to resume a life in the power of the flesh.

Grace is a gift...not by discipline or a better version of oneself.
Grace and discipline are not mutually exclusive. Those who practice discipline would likewise ascribe their accomplishments to God’s grace as those who are... less diligent or... 'more' discerning. Still, pride has a way to injure both equally. The former through boasting and passing judgment on the lazy and the latter by priding in their ‘greater’ understanding of how to walk in resurrection power as you put it. In reality, we can’t expect to be in that perfect state of grace that you describe all the time. When that happens, when grace subsides for whatever reason (there can be many) and contrary winds and spiritual turbulence disturb our soul, then discipline is our only recourse (Matthew 9:15) until Christ, Who is not far but merely sleeping, wakes up and restores calm to our soul (Matthew 8:25-26).
 

Nancy

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im really excited because I think (if no one has any emergency or need today) that I will be allowed to spend the day talking with you guys, reading scripture, eating, resting. I'm just really excited. Because you guys are my favorite people to spend time with. :)
I need this rest.

Me too Stunned! ♥
 

CoreIssue

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There actually are some verses that seem they could suggest salvation after death. Its not like there aren't some suggestions of it in scripture.

Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you've paid the last farthing.

And there's that whole odd thing of, it will be better in the judgement for Sodom than for you. (That one is puzzling to everyone who reads it, isn't it?)

And then there's the whole being beaten with less blows or more blows thing.

So really, it's not as if a man is completely nuts for seeing that there's something there to suggest even more kindness/grace in God than we are aware of.
It says live once then judgement and the Lake is eternal.
 

marks

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It's not stated. But things are repeated elsewhere in the bible. So we see how the sacrifices of Elijah were accepted and how the sacrifices of Baal were not.

Otherwise how would anyone know whose were accepted by God or not?

It is the same thing with strange fire. Temple fires had to be lit from above. If a man started the fire...it was strange fire.

The fire comes down
Look at Pentecost and the sacrifice of theirs! Were they not recipients of fire from heaven?

Its an interesting hermeneutic you have.

If it's not stated, what makes you certain? Nothing was ever stated about fire coming down from heaven to show God's acceptance of Abel's sacrifice, and in fact, fire did not come down from heaven to accept Jesus' sacrifice, or many many other sacrifices, accepted by God.

Myself, I'm not one to declare things which the Bible leaves silent.

Much love!
 
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amadeus

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Its an interesting hermeneutic you have.

If it's not stated, what makes you certain? Nothing was ever stated about fire coming down from heaven to show God's acceptance of Abel's sacrifice, and if fact, fire did not come down from heaven to accept Jesus' sacrifice, or many many other sacrifices, accepted by God.

Myself, I'm not one to declare things which the Bible leaves silent.

Much love!
Silence?
What is this fire anyway?


"And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt." Ex 3:2-3


"For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God." Deut 4:24 [see also Heb 12:29]

But... who or what will the fire burn up and kill?

"Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego." Dan 3:22

"And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them." Dan 3:27

Is this the same fire as in the fiery sword keeping the way of the Tree of Life [Gen 3:24]? How is it that some are able to pass through to it unburned?
 

marks

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Silence?
What is this fire anyway?


"And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt." Ex 3:2-3


"For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God." Deut 4:24 [see also Heb 12:29]

But... who or what will the fire burn up and kill?

"Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego." Dan 3:22

"And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them." Dan 3:27

Is this the same fire as in the fiery sword keeping the way of the Tree of Life [Gen 3:24]? How is it that some are able to pass through to it unburned?

Hi amadeus, I'm not sure what you are saying here.

Are you asking if there was the same fire as Nebuchadnezzar's furnace as the fire that guarded the way to the tree of life, and the same fire, were it so, that consumed Abel's sacrifice?

Much love!
 

marks

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I posted this elsewhere but I thought to make a new thread for this topic....which is so important.

The Holy Spirit is IN a person who is born again. It is Christ IN us. But it takes going to the throne of grace to get the FULL measure of grace. We need to further enter into someone who isn't us....Jesus Christ Himself. It's like the 10 lepers who were healed but only one came back to Jesus. ALL were indeed healed. But there was a selfishness in the other 9 as in...I got what I came for. (Come and get YOUR miracle today).


The Christian walk is about pressing on to maturity. But even maturity is at different levels.


Imagine going for a long walk...say 30 miles. Some people could do that in a day. But then another person takes 2 days....because he is also carrying 80 pounds on his back. So who must be in the better shape?


That's the way it is with the narrow path. Some people seem to have a harder time of it...but their calling is higher. We can be as mature as can be...but maturity in the spiritual walk of purity (holiness) is something vastly different. The walk of the righteous person is one thing...but to walk as Jesus walked for any length of time is miraculous. Can a man walk on water as if he was walking on land?


So then I divide maturity in righteousness...becoming more loving, more forgiving...getting to know God better. That's good...very good. (And it is very necessary) And that's one thing....but then there's maturity IN the Spirit which is like getting used to living on another planet. What makes a person at home on earth does not automatically make a person able to survive in another world. Of course righteousness and holiness are related. Learning righteousness helps with a longevity in holiness...even though it doesn't lead to it.


But the scandal of Jesus Christ is that He didn't just perfect a walk in the power of the flesh for us to grow into or imitate. He perfected humanity by a higher walk...a spiritual walk, and then brings us into it through translation into Zion in the Spirit. The scandal is that we can never improve ourselves into holiness. Holiness is a gift. Spiritual maturity is how long we can walk in the Spirit. Like how long we can walk on water for.


If I only spoke about what men can do...I would not be hated for speaking of the the cross of Christ in this way...the break with human kind which separates us from what we can do in our own capabilities...even mature capabilities. But I speak of the unspeakable gift...so I'm hated by many. The gift of God is the perfection of Christ's humanity given to us already perfected...as a gift. His perfect walk...as a gift. No improvements are required. It's the whole enchilada right away. That is what grace is. A gift of an eternal walk in an eternal life....not our life...but as partakers of HIS life. So the spiritual maturity is learning to walk IN someone else...not yourself. Jesus Christ.


Hard to believe? Absolutely. Not of this world.
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But there it is!


Having said all that...God loves us who walk after Him in the fear of Him and the hope of a future life with Him. We are saved not just by an active faith in the moment but also a living hope in the long race. God works with us...and guides us by His Spirit. We are His people who obey His commands and seek after Him.

And then there's the saints...

Romans 8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Christ in you, and you in Christ, these do not happen independent of each other.

To say that you can have Christ in you, but that you are not in Christ, is denied by this Scripture.

Much love!
 

CoreIssue

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Silence?
What is this fire anyway?


"And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt." Ex 3:2-3


"For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God." Deut 4:24 [see also Heb 12:29]

But... who or what will the fire burn up and kill?

"Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego." Dan 3:22

"And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them." Dan 3:27

Is this the same fire as in the fiery sword keeping the way of the Tree of Life [Gen 3:24]? How is it that some are able to pass through to it unburned?
What has that got to do with Able?
 

Episkopos

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Romans 8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Christ in you, and you in Christ, these do not happen independent of each other.

To say that you can have Christ in you, but that you are not in Christ, is denied by this Scripture.

Much love!


That is your opinion which is in error. But you have learned this from a religious system that only wants your money.

The truth is that there is a lamp AND there is oil. Your argument takes much away from the wisdom of the word. You would have the oil being perpetual...supplied with the lamp and always in the lamp automatically. (I know by now you are no longer reading this)

But for others I would say this...that visiting a friend and being visited by a friend are NOT the same thing. One can be visited without knowing where the other one lives. So it is with the modern half-baked Christianity where it is assumed that a little free gift grace equals abiding in Christ. The sheer folly of which leads to a bad outcome on that day.

Now I don't expect you to understand what I just said or any kind of cohesive argument...so I now bow out of this...ummm...discussion.
 
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CoreIssue

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That is your opinion which is in error. But you have learned this from a religious system that only wants your money.

The truth is that there is a lamp AND there is oil. Your argument takes much away from the wisdom of the word. You would have the oil being perpetual...supplied with the lamp and always in the lamp automatically. (I know by now you are no longer reading this)

Now I don't expect you to understand what I just said or any kind of cohesive argument...so I now bow out of this...ummm...discussion.
The lamps in the Bible were the 7 angels of the covenants. The oil the Holy Spirit.
 

marks

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That is your opinion which is in error. But you have learned this from a religious system that only wants your money.

What are you talking about here??

I know you call my words error, but with all due respect, how do you have any idea how I've come to my views?

It occurs to me to wonder if perhaps you have infused my ideas with others thinking I'm associated with ones with whom I'm not.

The truth is that there is a lamp AND there is oil. Your argument takes much away from the wisdom of the word. You would have the oil being perpetual...supplied with the lamp and always in the lamp automatically. (I know by now you are no longer reading this)

Now I don't expect you to understand what I just said or any kind of cohesive argument...so I now bow out of this...ummm...discussion.

I stick to what the Word says, and I make every effort to exclude ideas with are not found in the Bible. Not everyone is that way.

The Holy Spirit is given to those that ask. And He has promised both to never leave us, and to never forsake us. You would have us believe that's not true?

That is my argument. God had promised that He will never leave nor forsake us. God had declared that He has given us everything we need for life and godliness.

Are these true? As stated?

You need make no reply at all. You may reply in the same manner as previous, Oh, you're just wrong, no need to answer, not even a discussion . . .

Or you could give a real response. All up to you.

Much love!