The Crucified Life

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Episkopos

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So this is a spin-off thread from "Maturity in Christ"...

We can't speak about any kind of spiritual maturity without speaking of the narrow gateway of being crucified with Christ. The narrow path that follows in this now resurrected life of abiding in Jesus is as we remain a living sacrifice allowing our flesh to remain crucified so that Jesus can live His life through us. It's a tall order and very difficult. It goes against the grain of our need for freedom and autonomy. Few will want to do this and even when they who think they would want to prove unable to remain in that crucified state.

But we can encourage one another to press forward in this high calling in the Lord. If there were more of us that were willing and able to walk that narrow path...more of us would succeed...and the face of the world would change.

Everybody wants to see change but nobody wants the change to depend on their faithfulness to the high calling in Christ.

When we turn to God in a full surrender He inspects us...to see how willing we are to embark on a walk IN Christ. If He deems we are..then He crucifies us with Christ. This is not something we can do. Jesus didn't crucify Himself either...others did. But when we are crucified with Jesus it isn't others doing it...it is God by the Spirit doing it.

Why would we want such a thing?

it is only as we allow our lives to be taken from us...that we receive His divine life to be lived through us.

Gal. 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

No longer our life...no longer our faith....but still we retain our free will to stop the process when we want to. God doesn't hold us by force. It must be willingly...lovingly.

But how long can we last in such a precarious lifestyle? How long can we tolerate living sacrificially?
 

Episkopos

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There are conditions to God's intervention....besides faith. Those conditions are a pure heart (shalem) and clean hands (tamim). (Ps. 24:3,4) In the OT this did not lead to a sacrificial life nor a resurrection life...since Jesus was not yet glorified and so His gift of grace was not yet available to men.

In the NT we have a new level of life...in perfection (teleos). The pre-requisites for entering into teleos are the exact same but these can be obtained through repentance and faith towards God. IOW we come to God in whatever condition so we can be forgiven and enter into His training....through perfection in Christ.

What is this perfection?

Jesus said that we were to be teleos as God is teleos (Mat. 5:48). Teleos the perfection of a return to God's creation in HIS image. But at a higher level. So then to be perfect as God is perfect means we are back to His original image. We throw off the old man...conformed to the devil and this world...and put on the new man...created in the IMAGE of holiness and righteousness.

This is to be without sin...washed in the blood of Christ...clean and pure....without spot or wrinkle. This was Adam's condition BEFORE the fall.

But we can't return to that previous state...without Christ. In fact, we can only BE teleos as we abide in Him. It is never our permanent condition..because it is not US but Christ. It is HIS life not our own. Left to ourselves we return to the Adamic weakness.

So then we can ALL be tranformed into God's image by putting on Christ in that walk. But only through the cross of Christ.

And we are to present EVERY man teleos in Christ (Col. 1:28) So this seemingly impossible standard is to become the norm of the church that is in His name.
 

CoreIssue

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Pure nonsense. Again with the Gnostic claims.

We do not live in the crucifixion. We live in the resurrection.

Yet again your preaching salvation by works.

Colossians 1:28 New International Version (NIV)
28 He is the one we proclaim, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone fully mature in Christ.

It does not say perfect. It says mature.

Perfection is a goal but one we cannot obtain until the rapture.

The distinction between this passage and Matthew is that Matthew was still Old Testament. This is new testament.
 

Episkopos

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Gal. 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

A crucial verse.....with an ambiguity. The translation of this verse implies that WE are to do the crucifying. But that's not how the Greek goes....which says...They that are Christ's the flesh crucified.

The ambiguity is in the lack of a direct link in the wording as to who exactly is doing the crucifying.

Now nobody can crucify themselves...neither physically nor spiritually. That should be obvious.

So the text would be better rendered as " They that are Christ's (have had) the flesh crucified."

In any regard one who is in Christ cannot get there without being crucified to himself. It is by the operation of God. By the Spirit.

Any Greek speakers out there?
 

icxn

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We do the crucifying, there's no ambiquity to the phrase: "οἱ δὲ τοῦ Χριστοῦ τὴν σάρκα ἐσταύρωσαν." In order for the text to have been translated as, "they that are Christ's (have had) the flesh crucified," it should have been written as "οἱ δὲ τοῦ Χριστοῦ τὴν σάρκα έχουν ἐσταυρωμένη*."

Having said that, can we really crucify our passions and desires without God's grace? So the we should be understood as Christ and I (John 15:5).

________
* = have crucified (εἶχον ἐσταυρώσει = have had crucified).
 
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Episkopos

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We do the crucifying, there's no ambiquity to the phrase: "οἱ δὲ τοῦ Χριστοῦ τὴν σάρκα ἐσταύρωσαν." In order for the text to have been translated as, "they that are Christ's (have had) the flesh crucified," it should have been written as "οἱ δὲ τοῦ Χριστοῦ τὴν σάρκα έχουν ἐσταυρωμένη*."

Having said that, can we really crucify our passions and desires without God's grace? So the we should be understood as Christ and I (John 15:5).

________
* = have crucified (εἶχον ἐσταυρώσει = have had crucified).


So OK then...they that are Christ's "have had crucified" their flesh. Are you sure that we can crucify ourselves?

"They that are Christ's have had their flesh crucified" Does that work?(or...have had crucified their flesh) Does it say...have had themselves crucified their own flesh?

Think about it. Did Jesus crucify Himself?

Paul said ..."I am crucified" But it wasn't him that was living ...it was Christ. So are you suggesting that the text actually says we crucify ourselves (which is impossible) so that another can come later and live through us? We somehow nail ourselves to a cross as an offering to God so that we can enter into Jesus???

Makes no sense and that is not testified of anywhere else in the bible this ability to crucify ourselves. Of course we can carry our crosses...but that involves movement. Being crucified involves NO MOVEMENT...for it is Christ moving now...not us.

Do you understand the difficulty of this?
 
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Episkopos

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Episkope, I wasn't disagreeing with you. Even if that particular verse doesn't support your point, the fact is that we can't crucify ourselves. I agree!

:)


OK...but you see no ambiguity in the verse that leaves open the possibility that it doesn't relate to what WE can do?
 
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amadeus

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OK...but you see no ambiguity in the verse that leaves open the possibility that it doesn't relate to what WE can do?
What can we do, my friend? We may strive with all that we as natural men have and still fail. But when strive in accord with God's will, does He not fill in any gaps that require filling? People argue about works, but they really are necessary. Being necessary does not mean that they will save us. Rather, God in us will save us as He within us accomplishes those necessary things that are beyond us.

Could anyone have crucified Jesus without his permission? We might say that others bound him and nailed him, but...

"Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." John 10:17-18


So then can we crucify ourselves? Is not crucifixion a form of death? Does not to mortify mean to put to death?

"Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:" Col 3:5

We, in and of the old man alone, cannot do these things, but what of the new man? Can he not by the power of God kill the old man?
 
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Episkopos

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What can we do, my friend? We may strive with all that we as natural men have and still fail. But when strive in accord with God's will, does He not fill in any gaps that require filling? People argue about works, but they really are necessary. Being necessary does not mean that they will save us. Rather, God in us will save us as He within us accomplished those necessary things that are beyond us.

Could anyone have crucified Jesus without his permission? We might say that others bound him and nailed him, but...

"Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." John 10:17-18


So then can we crucify ourselves? Is not crucifixion a form of death does not to mortify mean to put to death?

"Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:" Col 3:5

We, in and of the old man alone, cannot do these things, but what of the new man? Can he not by the power of God kill the old man?


Good points John. :)
 

marks

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Everybody wants to see change but nobody wants the change to depend on their faithfulness to the high calling in Christ.

We do want to be faithful, are faithful in the power of the Holy Spirit . . . but better to depend on the faithfulness of God, for He has promised to us great and amazing things.

Rather than limit the advance of those who are already the born spirit children of God, why not encourage them in this life which they already have?

Much love!
 
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marks

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So the text would be better rendered as " They that are Christ's (have had) the flesh crucified."
I think this question is answered in the following:

Galatians 2:20 "with Christ I have been crucified, and live no more do I, and Christ doth live in me; and that which I now live in the flesh -- in the faith I live of the Son of God, who did love me and did give himself for me;"

Here "crucified" is in the perfect passive, that is to say, I'm the recipient of the action, not the one performing the action, and that this action is done and continues done.

Not that I crucified myself, but that I was crucifed.

Same grammar in Romans 6, being baptized into Jesus' death and burial, passive voice, we receive the action.

In Galatian 5:24, however, this is active voice, what we do, that we have crucified the flesh. I think @icxn has the right idea that this is in the power of Christ.

Again in Colossian 3, the command is given to us, the born again, "mortify your members which are upon the earth", and while God goes on to ennumerate the sins of the flesh, just the say, the wording itself mean to kill our body parts that are on this earth.

Separate them. Death to the flesh is sanctification to eternal life.

Much love!
 

Episkopos

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I would like to hear some real life examples. Everyone has already heard mine. I want to hear some.


Me too! :)

When a person is going through surgery it's helpful to have a loved one nearby to help you through it. The same goes for the heavenly surgery of the cross cutting out the power of the selfish flesh out of us. The brethren are there to help us though that difficult process.

But I'm afraid that most people have never experienced the deeper work of the cross. That pain of being separated from the world, all we have previously loved...and even our own lives. But this is necessary to the kind of walk that Jesus walked in. His death and then a translation into His life.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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One of the hardest things for me was not having a spiritual helpmeet through a lot of it, but I'm not sure that isn't by Gods design...wanting us to lean only on Him. Or maybe at least His design for some of us...you see different designs in the bible. The believers who had each other and gathered together, and then Paul, who didn't consult with any other man for...3 years was it?
 

stunnedbygrace

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But you know, He did give me some men long dead, through their writings. It was enough. He allowed me them sometimes.

But its a bewildering feeling to lose everything and then have Him, all you have, seem to go silent. You feel...abandoned. And yet, you can't go back to all you had once you see that it is nothing.
 

Episkopos

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One of the hardest things for me was not having a spiritual helpmeet through a lot of it, but I'm not sure that isn't by Gods design...wanting us to lean only on Him. Or maybe at least His design for some of us...you see different designs in the bible. The believers who had each other and gathered together, and then Paul, who didn't consult with any other man for...3 years was it?


Sometimes a spouse can get in the way of a spiritual advancement. I'm thinking more about the correct functioning of the church..like having experienced brethren around to encourage us in our time of being crucified to this world.

Jesus promised us that we would indeed be forsaken by our natural families, but that we would also gain many brothers and sisters in the faith....and eternal life.

As people, we tend to get in each others' way. We tend to mess each other up. So then the scarcity of crucified people in the church these days necessitates that we be alone in our walks so often. How can people understand what we are going through?

Just look at how many on this very forum would see spiritual advancement in Christ as something evil.

It is the sign of the times.
 

Episkopos

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You feel...abandoned. And yet, you can't go back to all you had once you see that it is nothing.

The spiritual conundrum! :) We want to have more friendship...but for the sake of love we need to let go of people. So we let go in order to obtain. We give up our lives in order to find them.

Can you say...paradox! :)
 
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stunnedbygrace

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The spiritual conundrum! :) We want to have more frienship...but for the sake of love we need to let go of people. So we let go in order to obtain. We give up our lives in order to find them.

Can you say...paradox! :)

We must start with contemptous mundi to get to amor mundi.
 
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