Convince me of Annihilationism

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brakelite

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No, I don't think we can divorce the life God gives us from our experience of that life.

But as for the sinners, the Bible treats it as so, speaking of their everlasting torment. Eternal life is knowing God, and experiencing the benefit of that relationship. Eternal death is not knowing God, and not experiencing the benefit of that relationship.

Much love!
Mark
In other words you would seek to convince me that we are naturally immortal and we shall not surely die? Are you not redefining the whole meaning and essence of life and death in order to defend a non biblical tradition that has people suffering for eternity? Sorry, but eternal life, however you may cut and dice it's definitions, still means life, and the opposite is death..a state of being in which there is no life, and separated from the only source of life is meaningless of that source needs to keep people alive in order to be cognisant of pain and suffering.
 
B

brakelite

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God created us as eternal beings.
He did. It was certainly always His intention we live forever in His presence and in His live. But it was also conditional. Adam lost that privileged position when he relinquished his dominion to another lord. The way to the tree of Life was barred... The is no such thing as an immortal sinner.
 

CoreIssue

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He did. It was certainly always His intention we live forever in His presence and in His live. But it was also conditional. Adam lost that privileged position when he relinquished his dominion to another lord. The way to the tree of Life was barred... The is no such thing as an immortal sinner.
Nowhere in the Bible doesn't say it is conditional. Nowhere.
 
B

brakelite

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Nowhere in the Bible doesn't say it is conditional. Nowhere.
Then why did God warm Adam that in the day he disobeyed he would die? And the only reason he didn't die on that day is because the Son stepped into the breach.
There is only one immortal being CI. Only one.
 

marks

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In other words you would seek to convince me that we are naturally immortal and we shall not surely die?

Hi Brakelite,

Obviously not, I'll not convince you at all, I believe.

Are you not redefining the whole meaning and essence of life and death in order to defend a non biblical tradition that has people suffering for eternity?

No, I don't believe I'm redefining the meaning of life and death, I think I'm using the terminology in the Biblical manner.

Where in Scripture is death clearly shown as the cessation of existence? I see in Scripture places where death has occurred, yet those who died still exist.

Your tradition is my straightforward reading of the Bible.

Sorry, but eternal life, however you may cut and dice it's definitions, still means life, and the opposite is death..a state of being in which there is no life, and separated from the only source of life is meaningless of that source needs to keep people alive in order to be cognisant of pain and suffering.

That is, unless the Creator created people in such a way that they last forever. And our definitions of life and death as being active, aware, and here, or not active, not aware, not anywhere, need to be modified.

If God made people in such a way as to last forever, then we either know God, in which we have eternal life, or we don't know God, in which we have eternal death. And this is what I see in Scripture, not that death equals inactivity, or unawareness, or lack of existence, but that death is separation. Physical death, separation from our bodies. Spiritual death, separation from God.

(editted ~ I don't think I was making much sense. :))

Much love!
 
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marks

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Then why did God warm Adam that in the day he disobeyed he would die? And the only reason he didn't die on that day is because the Son stepped into the breach.
There is only one immortal being CI. Only one.

Why would you think Adam didn't die?
 

CoreIssue

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Then why did God warm Adam that in the day he disobeyed he would die? And the only reason he didn't die on that day is because the Son stepped into the breach.
There is only one immortal being CI. Only one.
He did die on that day, spiritually.

It does not mean cease to exist, it means separated from God.

Remember, God seems to come down and walk with him afterwards.
 

justbyfaith

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Okay, enjoy what you believe. I hope it brings you joy and comfort for yourself, you family and your friends.

That is not the "Good News" that I read in the bible.

I fear for your soul then @"ByGrace".

You think that such a doctrine brings comfort to me? I would rather that it were not the reality.

But the Lord Jesus Christ taught the existence of eternal torment; and to reject this concept in a certain sense is to reject Him, not believing what He says.

John the Baptist under the anointing of the Holy Ghost said,

Jhn 3:36, He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

The reason that I fear for you is that in not believing in the doctrine stated, you 1) are not believing the Son; and, 2) you may not live your life in light of the warning; and when it gets to be too difficult to be a Christian you may cave thinking that the consequences are not as grave as they truly are for those who reject the faith.

 
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brakelite

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What is life? Is it not the combination of flesh and the breath of God? We all claim to base our beliefs from the Bible yes?

Ge 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


According to the above, and scripture cannot be broken, Moses is here telling us by the spirit of God that we are living souls. Not that we have received a soul, but we become a soul upon the combining of breath and body. That breath coming to us from God, the life force that animates the flesh. The soul, that whole person of body/flesh and spirit, because it sins, dies.

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul* that sinneth, it shall die.

If you persist in believing in the eternal nature of man, in whatever form, and whatever nomenclature you may grant it, you need to prove that from scripture. Now you may offer that the spirit, (whatever that is) because it returns to God, is "me", having consciousness and awareness of its/his/her surroundings and able to communicate, feel, sense, love, think, dream, hope and pray, and for the sinner also, without the love hope and pray aspects of course, though incomplete because of the lack of a body. The thing is, how do we do those things without a brain, seeing that organ is now worm-food along with the rest of its accompanying body?
Because we must eject the soul from the equation, as it dies, and the only remaining thing is that which returns to God, the spirit, what you are inferring is that the spirit is that which is created eternal by its nature. Just because God is immortal does not mean that what He has given us is of the same nature as Himself. Such a conclusion is only an assumption. God is Spirit certainly. And scripture declares in several places that only God is immortal...thus the only immortal spirit. A living being did not enter our bodies to animate it. A living being does not leave our bodies at death. We become a living being (a soul) upon the infusing of the spirit of life with the body. The only means by which life can be returned to us is through the resurrection, whereupon we once again become a living soul/creature...but with bodies clearly a step or two beyond what we currently enjoy.
Now I gotta admit, that my human understanding fails me in accurately describing what the spirit is...certainly, the breath of life...but how that animates the body...infuses the blood...brings life and power to that which is inanimate without it, and at the same time is described as being the seat of our communications with God and our conscience, is beyond me. That life which came from God and returns to Him, must be His life surely, not our own? Yet what I do know, because the Word declares it without any room for misunderstanding...it cannot be immortal. Only God is.

*05315 נפשׁ nephesh neh’-fesh
from 05314; n f; [BDB-659a] {See TWOT on 1395 @@ "1395a" }
AV-soul 475, life 117, person 29, mind 15, heart 15, creature 9, body 8, himself 8, yourselves 6, dead 5, will 4, desire 4, man 3, themselves 3, any 3, appetite 2, misc 47; 753
1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
1a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
1b) living being
1c) living being (with life in the blood)
1d) the man himself, self, person or individual
1e) seat of the appetites
1f) seat of emotions and passions
1g) activity of mind
1g1) dubious
1h) activity of the will
1h1) dubious
1i) activity of the character
1i1) dubious
 

Harvest 1874

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He did die on that day, spiritually.

It does not mean cease to exist, it means separated from God.

Remember, God seems to come down and walk with him afterwards.

Adam did die on that day (keep in mind who is speaking). A Day with the Lord is as a thousand years, Adam died at the ripe old age of 930, thus he did die in that day.
 

justbyfaith

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Adam did die on that day (keep in mind who is speaking). A Day with the Lord is as a thousand years, Adam died at the ripe old age of 930, thus he did die in that day.
That is an alternate interpretation that I believe is faulty.

God was speaking in terms that Adam could understand. If He was reserving His own definitions for the words that He was relating to Adam, there would have been miscommunication.

Adam and Eve died spiritually the moment that they ate of the fruit. I believe that this is what is dictated by sound doctrine.
 

Harvest 1874

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That is an alternate interpretation that I believe is faulty.

God was speaking in terms that Adam could understand. If He was reserving His own definitions for the words that He was relating to Adam, there would have been miscommunication.

Adam and Eve died spiritually the moment that they ate of the fruit. I believe that this is what is dictated by sound doctrine.

I would suggest you get some "new" sound doctrine because yours is faulty. There is absolutely nothing in the Scriptures to indicate that Adam or Eve were in any way spiritual. They where created 100% natural human beings.

Adam was not spiritually minded, but in his perfection he had a mind to do right. He had the mind of God in the sense that he had a balanced mind, not one having a preference for sin, or one that was weak. He was sound minded and could appreciate things from the standpoint of righteousness and justice. But even in his perfection Adam had not a spiritual mind in the highest, or Scriptural sense of the word, he was not spiritual.

The seventh creative day is seven thousand years long and is divided into seven 1000 years periods, the last of these 1000 year periods is the Day of the Lord, the millennial day. Adam died in the first of these 1000 year periods at the age of 930 even as so stated by the Bible. This very same Bible states that with the Lord a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day.

The LORD in speaking to Adam merely stated that in the day you eat ( i.e. sometime within that day or time period) you will surely die, He never specified whether He was speaking of a literal 24 hour day or a 1000 year day.
 

CoreIssue

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No we're referring to something taught in the Bible, ever read it?
Obviously more than you.

Nothing biblical about your interpretation.

They ate, they died spiritually, they know it and God dealt with them when he came to the garden. All before they were expelled from Eden.

Sounds like you have them dying in the flood.

But then again, you are not following the Bible, but the false prophet Russell.
 

CoreIssue

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I would suggest you get some "new" sound doctrine because yours is faulty. There is absolutely nothing in the Scriptures to indicate that Adam or Eve were in any way spiritual. They where created 100% natural human beings.

Adam was not spiritually minded, but in his perfection he had a mind to do right. He had the mind of God in the sense that he had a balanced mind, not one having a preference for sin, or one that was weak. He was sound minded and could appreciate things from the standpoint of righteousness and justice. But even in his perfection Adam had not a spiritual mind in the highest, or Scriptural sense of the word, he was not spiritual.

The seventh creative day is seven thousand years long and is divided into seven 1000 years periods, the last of these 1000 year periods is the Day of the Lord, the millennial day. Adam died in the first of these 1000 year periods at the age of 930 even as so stated by the Bible. This very same Bible states that with the Lord a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day.More teachings from the false prophet Russell.

The LORD in speaking to Adam merely stated that in the day you eat ( i.e. sometime within that day or time period) you will surely die, He never specified whether He was speaking of a literal 24 hour day or a 1000 year day.

More false teachings from the false prophet Russell.
 

Harvest 1874

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Obviously more than you.

Sounds like you have them dying in the flood.

Now I know you've never actually read the Bible, you believe the flood took place during the first 1000 years.
Just for future reference the flood took place 1656 years after the creation of Adam, 726 years after Adam's death. You might one to make a note of it just in case someone who has ever actually read the Bible asked you that question sometime.
 

Harvest 1874

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Indeed there is; Adam and Eve were created in the image of God. Is not God a spiritual being?

This is merely a supposition on your part and an erroneous one at that. As we said there are no scriptures to support such a claim except by one wrestling with the scriptures.

Adam was not created a spiritual image of his creator; he was created an earthly image of his creator.

We are not however to understand this "image" to be one of nature, i.e. physical shape or bodily form; but, rather, a moral and intellectual image of the Great Spirit, fashioned appropriately to his earthly conditions and nature. This implies mental faculties of reason, judgment and will, moral qualities of love and justice, and the propensity to worship his Creator. Man was created as an EARTHLY representative of his SPIRITUAL Creator. Thus was God manifested in the FLESH of Adam.

Neither Adam nor Eve upon eating the forbidden fruit died spiritually for they never possessed any spiritual essence to begin with, they died physically.

The soul that sins IT will die”. (Ezek 18:4)

It may well be that your problem stems from an improper understanding of what a soul is.

Adam and Eve were living souls created from the dust of the earth.

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath (“neshamah”) of life; and man became a living being (soul).” Gen 2:7

“The word ‘soul;’ as found in the Scriptures, signifies a sentient being; that is a being possessed of sense-perception. Note closely the sequence of events entailed in the creation of man as stated in the above text.

First the organism or body was formed from the dust of the earth, and then the spirit of life, called ‘breath of life,’ was instilled in the body or organism, which in turn resulted in the creation of a living soul, or sentient being.

Thus seen a soul is the combination of body and breath; it is a living, thinking creature. Man does not have a soul. Man IS a soul.

This is very simple, and easily understood. It shows that the body is not the soul, nor is the spirit or breath of life the soul; but that when these two were united by the Lord, the resultant quality or condition was a living man, a living being--a living soul possessed of perceptive powers. There is nothing mysterious about this nor is there any intimation that a spark of divinity (spirituality) was infused into humanity, any more than into the lower animals.”

Now some are of the impression that man is made up of three parts:

The body -- made of clay, the animal soul that dies upon our body's death, and the godly spirit that returns to God upon our death.

The Scriptures however recognize man as composed of only two elements (not three), body and spirit. These two produce soul, sentient being, intelligence, the man himself, the being, or soul. The term "body" applies merely to the physical organism. It neither relates to the life, which animates it, nor to the sentient being which is the result of animation. A body is not a man, although there could be no man without a body. The spirit of life is not the man, although there could be no manhood without the spirit of life.

The word "spirit" is, in the Old Testament Scriptures, from the Hebrew wordruach”. Its signification primarily is breath; and hence we have the expression "breath of life," or "spirit of life," because breathing supports the spark of life once started. The words "spirit of life," however, signifies more than merely breath; they relate to the spark of life itself, without which breath would be impossibility.

This is what the scriptures state in regards to the soul,

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” Gen 2:7

This shows that there are two elements necessary to the composition of a living soul or sentient being, first the organism or body, which the Word of the Lord states came from the earth and was composed of the dust of the earth, and secondly the spirit of life, called "breath of life," which was communicated to the lifeless organism from God. Once these two elements were joined, and only then did the soul (or individual) come into being.

When we die the “breath of life” returns to the Father, and the body returns to the dust from whence it came, the “soul” ceases to be. It is only because God has intended a Resurrection of both the just and the unjust, that man is considered only to be “sleeping” asleep in death, therefore God has not destroy completely the remembrance of the individual, the soul.

The process of dissolution, death, is in harmony with these facts. “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit (“ruach” Strong’s # 7307, breath of life) shall return unto God who gave it.” (Eccl 12:7)

The “spirit or breath of life” is not some kind of spirituality that was imparted; it is simply the power of God which animates the organism, together making up the soul. This same spirit is imparted to all living things, are we then to assume that the lower creation is likewise possessed of spirituality?
 
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justbyfaith

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This same spirit is imparted to all living things, are we then to assume that the lower creation is likewise possessed of spirituality?
Personally, I believe that animals possess spirituality; and are capable of worshiping the Lord.

neshamah (5397): nesh-aw-maw': from 5395;a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellest (concr.) an animal: -- blast, (that) breathe(eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.