The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity

Enoch111 said:

The whole concept of God choosing some for salvation is a GROSS VIOLATION of God's character and His Gospel. In fact it is an evil concept given what has been clearly revealed in Scripture. And thus the Five Points of Calvinism must distort the entire Gospel in order to be consistent.

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And you claim this with absolutely 0 Scripture to back up anything you are saying; we are all supposed to take what you are saying at face value.

Enoch111 said:

What is being said is that because God chooses some for salvation, Christ could not possibly die for the sins of the whole world. And since those chosen cannot possibly respond to the Gospel, they are regenerated before they are actually saved. All of this blatantly contradicts Scripture and makes a mockery of the true Gospel.

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What is being said is that, thought God has His reasons, and "does whatsoever He wills" [Psalms 115:3].

~ Yes, God has chosen a peculiar people:
Psalms 33:12
Psalms 106:5
Haggai 2:23
Matthew 22:14
Matthew 24:22
Matthew 24:24
Matthew 24:31
Luke 18:7
Romans 8:28-30
Romans 8:33
1 Peter 2:8-9

~ No, Christ did not die for all sins of all men. All men covered by Christs blood are:

1.) Saved
Matthew 1:21
Luke 19:10
2 Corinthians 5:21
Galatians 1:3-4
Titus 2:14
1 Peter 3:18
- Since all men are not saved, all men could not have been covered by Christ's blood

2.) Reconciled to God
Romans 5:10
2 Corinthians 5:18-19
Ephesians 2:15-16
Colossians 1:21-22
- Since all men are not reconciled to God, all men could not have been covered by Christ's blood

3.) Justified
Romans 5:8-9
1 Corinthians 1:30
Galatians 3:13
Hebrews 9:12
1 Peter 2:24
- Since all men are not justified, all men could not have been covered by Christ's blood

4.) Regeneration and Sanctification
Philippians 1:29
Titus 2:14
Titus 3:5-6
Ephesians 5:25-26
1 Corinthians 1:30
Hebrews 9:14
Hebrews 13:12
1 John 1:7
- Since all men are not regenerated and sanctified, all men could not have been covered by Christ's blood.

~ No, man in and of himself does not have the ability to choose God over sin.

- The human heart is not presented by Scripture as able to do anything spiritually good.
Genesis 6:5
Genesis 8:21
Ecclesiastes 9:3
John 3:19
Romans 8:7-8
1 Corinthians 2:14
Ephesians 4:17-19
Titus 1:15

- The Scriptures tell us that we are all naturally in bondage [slavery] to sin and to Satan, and Jesus Himself said we cannot serve 2 masters.
John 8:44
Ephesians 2:1-2
2 Timothy 2:25-26
1 John 3:10
1 John 5:19
John 8:34
Romans 6:20
Titus 3:3

- The Scriptures tell us themselves that we are unable to change the state of our darkened hearts
Job 14:4
Jeremiah 13:23
Matthew 7:16-18
Matthew 12:33
John 6:44
John 6:65
Romans 11:35-36
1 Corinthians 2:14
1 Corinthians 4:7
2 Corinthians 3:5

These hearts of men do indeed, according to plain Scripture, need regenerated from their dead state before they become able to respond to the call of God, yes.

Laish said:

God Hasn’t revealed any criteria for what His will in election . Except that it is His will .

2 Timothy 1:8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God,
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity.

So a short answer is for God’s own purpose. What that is ? Well scripture dose point to the fact that His ways and thoughts are way beyond ours . I am sorry if that’s not satisfactory for you . It’s the way I read it . I trust In God’s will and his purpose for what He dose . I see it as not me but Him .
Scripture dose have examples of those chosen for use by God even before they were born . Isaac , Jacob , Samson , Samuel and John the Baptist. Still no reason given for the choice on the individual .
If this leads to other questions ask .
Blessings
Bill

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Hi Bill,

Thank you for your reply.

I do have a follow-up question.

Can you show me Scripture which teaches that my answer is wrong?

My answer is, of course, that God knows ahead of time those who will believe Him when He calls, and these, having been placed into Christ when they believe, are then "elect in Christ", Christ being God's "Elect Servant".

And so because Christ is The Elect, we are elect in Him, and so we are the elect.

But I don't want to get to far from this one question, you know how these threads can run!

So then my answer to my question, By what criteria does God choose? Those who will believe, known ahead of time.

What Scriptures teach this is not so?

Much love!
Mark

marks said:

Hi Bill,

Thank you for your reply.

I do have a follow-up question.

Can you show me Scripture which teaches that my answer is wrong?

My answer is, of course, that God knows ahead of time those who will believe Him when He calls, and these, having been placed into Christ when they believe, are then "elect in Christ", Christ being God's "Elect Servant".

And so because Christ is The Elect, we are elect in Him, and so we are the elect.

But I don't want to get to far from this one question, you know how these threads can run!

So then my answer to my question, By what criteria does God choose? Those who will believe, known ahead of time.

What Scriptures teach this is not so?

Much love!
Mark

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Verses stating that election was not based on foreseen faith

Romans 9:11-13
Romans 9:16
Romans 10:20
1 Corinthians 1:27-29
2 Timothy 1:9


God's choice is not based on foreseen faith. Faith is the result of and not the cause for election.
The Acts of the Apostles 13:48
The Acts of the Apostles 18:27
Philippians 1:29
Philippians 2:12-13
1 Thessalonians 1:4-5
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
James 2:5

Mjh29 said:

Verses stating that election was not based on foreseen faith

Romans 9:11-13

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We can start here.

Romans 9
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Not of works. I'm not saying that God foresaw my works, and chose based on that. I don't see that this verse states that God did not foresee those who would believe.

And in my view, it's not so much that we are chosen individually, rather, that as we are placed into Christ, we receive the benefit of His Election.

Ephesians 1 shows that we receive Every spiritual blessing which we receive "in Christ". And then God goes on to tell us those blessings, He has chosen us, purposed us, predestinated us, accepted us, redeemed us, and more.

So our election comes with every other blessing, In Christ.

Ephesians 2 of course declares the same thing as Romans 9:11 affirms, our salvation is not of works.

Your thoughts?

Much love!

Mjh29 said:

And you claim this with absolutely 0 Scripture to back up anything you are saying; we are all supposed to take what you are saying at face value.

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There would no point providing Scriptures to those who distort the Scriptures and make them mean whatever they want. And that is exactly what you have done with all your Scripture references. On top of that you have used faulty logic throughout your post #1201.

EXAMPLES OF FAULTY CALVINISTIC LOGIC

1. ~ Yes, God has chosen a peculiar people -- FAILED TO ADD "for perfection and glorification, but not for salvation (Rom 8:29,30)"

2.~ No, Christ did not die for all sins of all men -- BLATANT CONTRADICTION OF NUMEROUS SCRIPTURES ALREADY PRESENTED

3. - The human heart is not presented by Scripture as able to do anything spiritually good -- OBEDIENCE TO THE GOSPEL IS NOT A GOOD WORK

4. The Scriptures tell us that we are all naturally in bondage [slavery] to sin -- BLATANT DENIAL OF THE POWER OF THE GOSPEL AND THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

5. - The Scriptures tell us themselves that we are unable to change the state of our darkened hearts -- BLATANT DENIAL THAT REGENERATION IS SUPERNATURAL

When Bible truth is blatantly denied and contradicted to uphold man-made doctrines, then there is no point in further discussion.

Enoch111 said:

There would no point providing Scriptures to those who distort the Scriptures and make them mean whatever they want. And that is exactly what you have done with all your Scripture references. On top of that you have used faulty logic throughout your post #1201.

EXAMPLES OF FAULTY CALVINISTIC LOGIC

1. ~ Yes, God has chosen a peculiar people -- FAILED TO ADD "for perfection and glorification, but not for salvation (Rom 8:29,30)"

2.~ No, Christ did not die for all sins of all men -- BLATANT CONTRADICTION OF NUMEROUS SCRIPTURES ALREADY PRESENTED

3. - The human heart is not presented by Scripture as able to do anything spiritually good -- OBEDIENCE TO THE GOSPEL IS NOT A GOOD WORK

4. The Scriptures tell us that we are all naturally in bondage [slavery] to sin -- BLATANT DENIAL OF THE POWER OF THE GOSPEL AND THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

5. - The Scriptures tell us themselves that we are unable to change the state of our darkened hearts -- BLATANT DENIAL THAT REGENERATION IS SUPERNATURAL

When Bible truth is blatantly denied and contradicted to uphold man-made doctrines, then there is no point in further discussion.

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So, You're opinions are supposed to be taken as on par with the Scriptures I provided? I think not. You provided one verse, without taking the time to deal with the many many verses throughout the entire Scriptures which support what I am saying; it is clear which one of us has the Biblical case, and which one places his opinions on the same playing field as Scripture. You can say what you want, but the fact that you will ignore the provided Scriptures and continue to attack Reformed theology proves that your opinions are more important.

When a person is willing to pretend their opinions can contradict Scripture, then you are correct; there is no point in further discussion; not until the Scriptures become foremost important. I will pray for you that this becomes the case, and that we can have an actual discussion based on the Word.

marks said:

We can start here.

Romans 9
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Not of works. I'm not saying that God foresaw my works, and chose based on that. I don't see that this verse states that God did not foresee those who would believe.

And in my view, it's not so much that we are chosen individually, rather, that as we are placed into Christ, we receive the benefit of His Election.

Ephesians 1 shows that we receive Every spiritual blessing which we receive "in Christ". And then God goes on to tell us those blessings, He has chosen us, purposed us, predestinated us, accepted us, redeemed us, and more.

So our election comes with every other blessing, In Christ.

Ephesians 2 of course declares the same thing as Romans 9:11 affirms, our salvation is not of works.

Your thoughts?

Much love!

Click to expand...

marks said:

We can start here.

Romans 9
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Not of works. I'm not saying that God foresaw my works, and chose based on that. I don't see that this verse states that God did not foresee those who would believe.

And in my view, it's not so much that we are chosen individually, rather, that as we are placed into Christ, we receive the benefit of His Election.

Ephesians 1 shows that we receive Every spiritual blessing which we receive "in Christ". And then God goes on to tell us those blessings, He has chosen us, purposed us, predestinated us, accepted us, redeemed us, and more.

So our election comes with every other blessing, In Christ.

Ephesians 2 of course declares the same thing as Romans 9:11 affirms, our salvation is not of works.

Your thoughts?

Much love!

Click to expand...

As the Scriptures state, God does not choose based on faith; faith is the result of Him choosing, not the cause.

God's choice is not based on foreseen faith. Faith is the result of and not the cause for election.
The Acts of the Apostles 13:48
The Acts of the Apostles 18:27
Philippians 1:29
Philippians 2:12-13
1 Thessalonians 1:4-5
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
James 2:5

Mjh29 said:

As the Scriptures state, God does not choose based on faith; faith is the result of Him choosing, not the cause.

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You gave a list of Scriptures to support this assertion.

I've taken the first in your list and shown how it does not actually support that assertion.

I've asked for your comment on this refutation. Do you have none to make?

Much love!
Mark

Hey Marks you had two related posts so I quoted both ok ?

marks said:

My answer is, of course, that God knows ahead of time those who will believe Him when He calls, and these, having been placed into Christ when they believe, are then "elect in Christ", Christ being God's "Elect Servant".

Click to expand...

Ok question then why dose God call . If He knows they will believe? If He doesn’t call will they still believe?
Also why dose one person believe and not the other ?

marks said:

We can start here.

Romans 9
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Not of works. I'm not saying that God foresaw my works, and chose based on that. I don't see that this verse states that God did not foresee those who would believe.

Click to expand...

It dose state that it is not any doing of man but of God .
This dose lead to another question is choosing to believe ( to have faith ) in God a good thing ?
The reason I ask is that His (God’s) choice is made outside of anything good .
Blessings
Bill

Laish said:

God Hasn’t revealed any criteria for what His will in election . Except that it is His will .

2 Timothy 1:8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God,
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity.

So a short answer is for God’s own purpose. What that is ? Well scripture dose point to the fact that His ways and thoughts are way beyond ours . I am sorry if that’s not satisfactory for you . It’s the way I read it . I trust In God’s will and his purpose for what He dose . I see it as not me but Him .
Scripture dose have examples of those chosen for use by God even before they were born . Isaac , Jacob , Samson , Samuel and John the Baptist. Still no reason given for the choice on the individual .
If this leads to other questions ask .
Blessings
Bill

Click to expand...

"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." (Romans 11.6)

It is indeed vain to look for any other reason apart from His grace for God's wondrous intervention in the lives of sinners.

Laish said:

Hey Marks you had two related posts so I quoted both ok ?


Ok question then why dose God call . If He knows they will believe? If He doesn’t call will they still believe?
Also why dose one person believe and not the other ?

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Hi Bill,

I don't want my question to become left behind, just to confirm, then, are you not aware of Scripture which teaches that we are not chosen according to the foreknowledge that we would believe?

To your questions above, Why does God call? I don't know only that it is His way, part of His process. He calls, He justifies, He glorifies. But before calling, He limits in advance, and before limiting in advance, He knows in advance.

The one things I can think of at the moment specifically written in Scripture to say why one and not another, in a concise and clear manner, is that one loves their sin and refuses to come to the light, while another sees the goodness of God and believes, or sees the evidence of God and believes.

The difference between you and me is that you ascribe that belief as imparted by God, while I ascribe that belief as acquiescence to my Creator.

If He doesn't call will they still believe? In this context God calls those He foreknows, there is no question of their belief, not in God.

I remember being 10 years old and assuming God was real just by looking at the night sky.

But I also remember being 18 years old convinced I/we is god, yeah, right! I think all know God is real, but most hide that knowledge deep inside, not wanting it. The more masterful we are in this world the less our felt need for God. The weak, the foolish, the poor, we know we need Him. Affliction drives us towards God.

I'm sorry, I'm rambling.

It dose state that it is not any doing of man but of God .
This dose lead to another question is choosing to believe ( to have faith ) in God a good thing ?
The reason I ask is that His (God’s) choice is made outside of anything good .
Blessings
Bill

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Not of man but of God, are you thinking of John 1?

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

These were not reborn of their own will. God chose to give rebirth. God gives rebirth to those who have the right to be reborn. And they have the right to be reborn by receiving Jesus, believing on His Name.

Is believing a good thing? We are commanded to believe, so it is submission to God. It's accepting His version over our own.

Much love!

farouk said:

It is indeed vain to look for any other reason apart from His grace for God's wondrous intervention in the lives of sinners.

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While I agree with these words at their face, if we settle for something that misrepresents God, should we look no further?

Much love!
mark

Phoneman777 said:

It's alright to crash the party as long as you bring food or root beer.

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Yeah!!!

I think I killed the thread. 1200 posts and going great guns, and I killed it.

Sorry!

Phoneman777 said:

How does one go about determining if he/she is among "the specially chosen"? Is it a "burning in the bosom" like in Mormonism or something like that?

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If we are actually saved, and these are correct, then we're simply doctrinally wrong. But it seems that these are of the view that to be doctrinally wrong in this particular is to be so far off as to not be saved, only deceived.

So if that's true, then the way you can know is to both believe in your salvation, and in the Reformed view of election.

Much love!
Mark

I have too much time on my hands!

Much love, and a wonderful weekend!

Phoneman777 said:

It's alright to crash the party as long as you bring food or root beer.

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marks said:

I have too much time on my hands!

Much love, and a wonderful weekend!

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you have a good weekend too.