Morality

ScottA · May 20, 2019

Vince said:
This is just saying that Christians cannot agree on truth. Cannot know in any meaningful way what is true, if god exists, if the bible is accurate, etc.

No, not at all, not even.

What I was saying, is that you are thinking way too small. You many as well magnify a Rembrandt a trillion times, then pick out random microscopic pixels and say, "See they don't show anything conclusive!"

Well...duh! You are a pixel calling a pixel a pixel...and you don't have all the information and are foolishly saying not having all the information is somehow more than having it. And to top it off you are using your own lack of seeing the whole picture as justification for what is completely wrong...just because you don't know any better.

Well, we do. An so far, you have been unwilling to look at it from the proper perspective. Your shortcomings are all yours.

Vince · May 20, 2019

ScottA said:
No, not at all, not even.

What I was saying, is that you are thinking way too small. You many as well magnify a Rembrandt a trillion times, then pick out random microscopic pixels and say, "See they don't show anything conclusive!"

Well...duh! You are a pixel calling a pixel a pixel...and you don't have all the information and are foolishly saying not having all the information is somehow more than having it. And to top it off you are using your own lack of seeing the whole picture as justification for what is completely wrong...just because you don't know any better.

Well, we do. An so far, you have been unwilling to look at it from the proper perspective. Your shortcomings are all yours.

Your claim, your burden of proof which you repeatedly shirk.

Vince · May 20, 2019

Berserk said:
Note carefully that Vince's meaningless view of the grounds for morality is decisively refuted by post 46 and understandably has had noting to say in response. So I will now address the absurdities of his other threads, specifically his failure to come to terms with the principle that the position that makes the best sense of all the relevant data is the position to be preferred.

Notice also that Vince established the criteria God must meet to make Himself real to Vince and shows no interest in God's criteria for the right way to invite Christ into his life. Thus, Vince acts as if God would be rather lucky to recruit him as a follower of Jesus.

Please. I get a lot of responses I missed it OK. I will get to it. It's post #48 by the way.

ScottA · May 20, 2019

Vince said:
Your claim, your burden of proof which you repeatedly shirk.

Are you slow? How many times do I have to tell you these are God's rules - NOT YOUR RULES?

He has bent over backwards - died for you. The burden is now on you. Your move. And with this kind of attitude, you are destine to fail. Change or loose everything.

Vince · May 20, 2019

ScottA said:
Are you slow? How many times do I have to tell you these are God's rules - NOT YOUR RULES?

Give me sufficient evidence he exists. You have not done so to this point. All you have said is that you know he exists. That does not cut it.

He has bent over backwards - died for you. The burden is now on you. Your move. And with this kind of attitude, you are destine to fail. Change or loose everything.

More threats. You have the freewill to worship me or I will send you to hell. Right, that is not a freewill choice. It is like me telling you pay me $10,000 or I will kill your wife. That is not really a choice.

ScottA · May 20, 2019

Vince said:
Give me sufficient evidence he exists. You have not done so to this point. All you have said is that you know he exists. That does not cut it.

More threats. You have the freewill to worship me or I will send you to hell. Right, that is not a freewill choice. It is like me telling you pay me $10,000 or I will kill your wife. That is not really a choice.

You have everything backwards. Should I not tell you that?

You are already hell-bound. You have the free will to change that. It is you who need to come up with the evidence. It's all around you, but no one can do it for you.

Would you like me to stop pointing you to the truth?

Vince · May 20, 2019

ScottA said:
You have everything backwards. Should I not tell you that?

You are already hell-bound. You have the free will to change that. It is you who need to come up with the evidence. It's all around you, but no one can do it for you.

I am not asking anyone to. I am asking for sufficient evidence that you or Mormons, or baptists, or Methodists, or non denominational, or etc. etc is correct, if any.

Would you like me to stop pointing you to the truth?[/QUOTE]
What truth? You just tell me things that you believe in contradiction to other Christians that tell me about salvation. If salvation is so important then why cannot most Christians agree on how you attain it? I know of at least 5 different atonement theories all of which contradict each other and all based on the bible. Obviously no one in Christianity has the answer as far as I know.

ScottA · May 20, 2019

Vince said:
I am not asking anyone to. I am asking for sufficient evidence that you or Mormons, or baptists, or Methodists, or non denominational, or etc. etc is correct, if any.

That is your part. Figure it out.

Vince said:
What truth? You just tell me things that you believe in contradiction to other Christians that tell me about salvation. If salvation is so important then why cannot most Christians agree on how you attain it? I know of at least 5 different atonement theories all of which contradict each other and all based on the bible. Obviously no one in Christianity has the answer as far as I know.

Not true. I do not tell you "things that I believe", and you do not listen very well. I have told you numerous times that I do not "believe", but that I "know."

And I just explained the would-be contradictions for what they really are...again....and again you act like you were out to lunch and missed the whole explanation. But why do you consider the error of many contradictions, anything but error? And what a dumb analogy! Does that mean if you saw 5 different wrecked cars, that you would not buy a good one?

What is "obvious" is not that Christians don't have answers...but rather that you do not want to hear it.

Taken · May 20, 2019

Vince said:
What truth?

Gods Truth.

God Never Changes. It is people that Change.
It is people who Learn at their OWN pace.
It is people who Learn bits and pieces of the Truth over a period of time.

You just tell me things that you believe in contradiction to other Christians that tell me about salvation.

All Scripture is TRUE.
For every man, every era, there is Scripture that Applies to ALL persons.
However NOT ALL Scripture APPLIES to "Every Individual person."

If salvation is so important then why cannot most Christians agree on how you attain it?

Why would they? Are ALL Christians of the same era, Same Age, Same Diligence of Hearing, Learning, Studying?
Well, No they are not.

Are ALL Christians Saved and Born Again?
Well, No they are not.

Are ALL who Believe IN thee Heavenly God, called Christians?
Well, No they are not.

Do all People who Believe IN thee Heavenly God, ALSO believe in Christ Jesus?
Well, No they do not.

You don't believe in ANY of those things, YET you WANT a Pat Answer that you can Argue Against and Demand Proof.

I know of at least 5 different atonement theories

I know of several DIFFERENT WAYS God Provided for men to obtain Salvation.
So what?

I also know the WAY God Provided for "ME", in My generation, My era, to obtain Salvation.

all of which contradict each other and all based on the bible.

Again, It is about Scripture "APPLICABILITY" specific to each Individual.

Obviously no one in Christianity has the answer as far as I know.

No. What is Obvious, is each Individual is on their own Journey, at their own Pace, at their own Distance, and revealing what Scripturally APPLIES to "THEM", without consideration "IF" it APPLIES TO YOU, or anyone else.

Inanutshell ~ In this era, this day and foreward, every opportunity for ANY man to receive Salvation hinges on the individuals heartfelt belief In thee Heavenly God and Christ the Lord Jesus.

The Importance of Death, Salvation, and a Quickened spirit, is foreward to individual men who heartfully Desire to Live eternally with their Lord God Almighty, Creator and Maker.

You stand at a crossroads, as if waiting for someone to give you Evidence and Proof of what IS for Them and what IS to come, for Them; AND How "they" can convince "you" Why that Applies to THEM...and other things Apply to you.

It's simple, your Desire is not the Same as other peoples, nor is your Understanding.

Glory to God,
Taken

Vince · May 21, 2019

Taken said:
Gods Truth.

God Never Changes.

"Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind." 1 Sam 15:29 NIV

"So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people." Ex 32:14 NIV

It is people that Change.
It is people who Learn at their OWN pace.
It is people who Learn bits and pieces of the Truth over a period of time.

All Scripture is TRUE.
For every man, every era, there is Scripture that Applies to ALL persons.
However NOT ALL Scripture APPLIES to "Every Individual person."

Why would they? Are ALL Christians of the same era, Same Age, Same Diligence of Hearing, Learning, Studying?
Well, No they are not.

Are ALL Christians Saved and Born Again?
Well, No they are not.

Are ALL who Believe IN thee Heavenly God, called Christians?
Well, No they are not.

Do all People who Believe IN thee Heavenly God, ALSO believe in Christ Jesus?
Well, No they do not.

You don't believe in ANY of those things, YET you WANT a Pat Answer that you can Argue Against and Demand Proof.

I know of several DIFFERENT WAYS God Provided for men to obtain Salvation.
So what?

I also know the WAY God Provided for "ME", in My generation, My era, to obtain Salvation.

Again, It is about Scripture "APPLICABILITY" specific to each Individual.

No. What is Obvious, is each Individual is on their own Journey, at their own Pace, at their own Distance, and revealing what Scripturally APPLIES to "THEM", without consideration "IF" it APPLIES TO YOU, or anyone else.

Inanutshell ~ In this era, this day and foreward, every opportunity for ANY man to receive Salvation hinges on the individuals heartfelt belief In thee Heavenly God and Christ the Lord Jesus.

The Importance of Death, Salvation, and a Quickened spirit, is foreward to individual men who heartfully Desire to Live eternally with their Lord God Almighty, Creator and Maker.

You stand at a crossroads, as if waiting for someone to give you Evidence and Proof of what IS for Them and what IS to come, for Them; AND How "they" can convince "you" Why that Applies to THEM...and other things Apply to you.

It's simple, your Desire is not the Same as other peoples, nor is your Understanding.

Glory to God,
Taken

And another christian will have a completely different explanation.

Taken · May 21, 2019

Vince said:
"Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind." 1 Sam 15:29 NIV

"So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people." Ex 32:14 NIV

And another christian will have a completely different explanation.

Actually the LORD did NOT change His Mind.
The LORD changed the TIME FRAME, whereby those who reject Him would be punished and destroyed.

The LORD gave man a consideration, for them to acknowledge their wrong and Elected Moses to Be the Teacher of men, of HOW men could Repent.

Yep, Christians may have a completely different assessment. No Issue with me, MEN are NOT ALL knowing. And neither does that affect a Saved mans Salvation.

Glory to God,
Taken

Vince · May 21, 2019

Taken said:
Actually the LORD did NOT change His Mind.
The LORD changed the TIME FRAME, whereby those who reject Him would be punished and destroyed.

The LORD gave man a consideration, for them to acknowledge their wrong and Elected Moses to Be the Teacher of men, of HOW men could Repent.

Yep, Christians may have a completely different assessment. No Issue with me, MEN are NOT ALL knowing. And neither does that affect a Saved mans Salvation.

Uh huh.

Vince · May 21, 2019

Berserk said:
The concept of "decide" implies deliberation about possible choices in time. That is a crude anthropomorphism because it assumes a need to ponder the right choice among alternate choices. This need already denies divine omniscience and omnipotence. If God transcends time, then God's values are timeless and eternal and are therefore never subject to decisions as circumstances arise in tione to demand such a decision. Rather, God's essence is Love, and so, Right and Wrong are corollaries of what Love eternally entails. You continually duck this point.

So god does not decide what is right or wrong? How have you determined that gods morals are good in all situations?

What you don't get is this: the very concept of "wrong" is epistemologically meaningless without consequences. Define "wrong" wusing neither synonyms that beg the question nor consequences and accountability. You can't without arbitrarily imposing your wishful thinking on those who disagree with you.

Neither can you. I disagree with you. I can do something wrong without any consequences so is it still wrong? People that get away with murder I would say it is still wrong to do.

But your "standard" is arbitrary and pragmatic; and pragmatism is merely an expression of a value system that is socially functional, but not moral in the sense that you establish what "ought" to happen. Living according to your own fabricated value system is just your way of ducking the real question of whether there is such a thing as Right and Wrong in the universe apart from arbitrary pontifications that are merely asserted, but can't be defended.

Do you know the definition of arbitrary? Here it is:

"based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system."

As I have explained in my OP that I have a reason for my morals they are not determined on a whim. This does not fit the definition of arbitrary.

Doing so has nothing to do with whether you can establish moral truth in any nonarbitrary way.

I have explained that my morals are not arbitrary by definition.

You don't seem to have ever read an academic book on philosophical ethics.

Feel better now?

lforrest · May 21, 2019

Vince said:
So god does not decide what is right or wrong? How have you determined that gods morals are good in all situations?

Neither can you. I disagree with you. I can do something wrong without any consequences so is it still wrong? People that get away with murder I would say it is still wrong to do.

Do you know the definition of arbitrary? Here it is:

"based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system."

As I have explained in my OP that I have a reason for my morals they are not determined on a whim. This does not fit the definition of arbitrary.

I have explained that my morals are not arbitrary by definition.

Feel better now?

Yet it is arbitrary, in who's well-being you prioritize. You can choose yourself or others.

Berserk · May 21, 2019

Vince: "So god does not decide what is right or wrong?"

Of course not! God does not exist as a Supreme Being among countless other beings. Rather, God is the ground of all Being--the only answer to the question, "Why is there something rather than nothing at all?" But God is also Love. So God's values are embedded in the ground of all Being and are in that sense objective. So God does not "decide" what is right and wrong because right and wrong are embedded in the very nature of the universe and the concept of decision implies a lack of omniscience that requres decisions among various moral options.

Vince: "How have you determined that gods morals are good in all situations?"

Since God's essence is Love, God's morals are by definition expressions of that Love. Loving morals are by definition good morals.
What you continually fail to get is this: my ability to deduce what is good in all situations reflects on my flawed intuition and understanding, not on God's morality! You are confusing 2 separate issues and obviously don't get the concept of progressive revelation.

Vince" " I can do something wrong without any consequences so is it still wrong? People that get away with murder I would say it is still wrong to do."

On what basis do you say that? If murder advances my particular wellbeing, why should I care about the wellbeing of the persons murdered or their loved ones? I repeat a point that you continually duck: The atheist's concept of "wrong" presumes that you can define "wrong" without appealing to accountability or consequences. Put differently, you have no way of establishing what we 'ought" to do because the concept of "ought" implies clarity about the definition of "wrong." I again repeat: you have no way of deriving an "ought" from what is and have no way of imposing your concept of social wellbeing on others who reject your concept. In that sense your moral system is arbitrary-- i.e. based on your personal whim in c\reating YOUR value system. But you can label yourself content as long as you are blissful blind to these logical nonsequitors and refuse to take a basic course on philosophical ethics.

Taken · May 21, 2019

Vince said:
So god does not decide what is right or wrong?

Ofcourse God set the Standard for Right and Wrong...Good and Evil.

God was with Adam in the Garden filling Adam with what is Good and Right, and Forbade Adam from ONE Thing...
Eating from the Tree of Good and Evil.

ONCE Adam disobeyed God and ate from the Tree of Good and Evil, forward From Adams reproductive SEED, Adams offspring would be in Adams Likeness, To Naturally KNOW Good and Evil.

And the same continues to this day; A natural person KNOWS good and evil, right and wrong, and has the Freewill to choose either.

Glory to God,
Taken

bbyrd009 · May 22, 2019

Vince said:
So god does not decide what is right or wrong?

I guess first one must decide the def of "God"
so your answer is "yes, and no"
as both can be Quoted?

DoveSpirit05 · Aug 30, 2019

To any atheist, wat is ur moral standard?

Truth OT · Oct 24, 2019

My contention is that morals (what behaviors are right or wrong) are almost ENTIRELY subjective. Factors such as time period, culture, religious beliefs, species, and vested interests all play a role in the subjectivity of morals.

The basis for morals developing is coexistance and in essence, what morals are are rules for living together. What treatment is morally allowed is then determined by a value system that assigns worth to the parties that coexist. Those that are valued as peers get rights and protections that are not afforded to entities not valued on that level. The general body of members of the peer group of influence are the moral arbitors over the time and territory wherein they exist.

brakelite · Oct 24, 2019

Truth OT said:
My contention is that morals (what behaviors are right or wrong) are almost ENTIRELY subjective. Factors such as time period, culture, religious beliefs, species, and vested interests all play a role in the subjectivity of morals.

The basis for morals developing is coexistance and in essence, what morals are are rules for living together. What treatment is morally allowed is then determined by a value system that assigns worth to the parties that coexist. Those that are valued as peers get rights and protections that are not afforded to entities not valued on that level. The general body of members of the peer group of influence are the moral arbitors over the time and territory wherein they exist.

Jesus said if we lust for a married person, it is adultery. That to my mind suggests a universal moral standard... Even in thought. I would imagine that applies also to pedophiles... Siblings... While there may be some cultures that freely countenance such things, that doesn't make it morally acceptable in the eyes of God. He has set the standard... Anything else or lower is an abuse of His authority.

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