What's with this thing called THE APOCRYPHA?

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Helen

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Thanks Willie... and thank you too @1stCenturyLady ...I am checking these thing out.
I have read the apocrypha a couple of times, but no longer have it. I didn’t know about the other books.

I did read “ The Archo Volumes “ and totally enjoyed it . I think I have it.

Quote.
The Archko Volume or Archko Library [1] is a 19th-century volume containing what purports to be a series of reports from Jewish and pagan sources contemporary with Jesus that relate to the biblical texts describing his life. The work went through a number of versions and has remained in print ever since. The texts are otherwise unknown, and the author was convicted by an ‘ecclesiastical court’ of falsehood and plagiarism.[2]

All the history of the times is great. I loved the book. I don’t care what’s ‘said’ about it. LOL
 

1stCenturyLady

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Thanks Willie... and thank you too @1stCenturyLady ...I am checking these thing out.
I have read the apocrypha a couple of times, but no longer have it. I didn’t know about the other books.

I did read “ The Archo Volumes “ and totally enjoyed it . I think I have it.

Quote.
The Archko Volume or Archko Library [1] is a 19th-century volume containing what purports to be a series of reports from Jewish and pagan sources contemporary with Jesus that relate to the biblical texts describing his life. The work went through a number of versions and has remained in print ever since. The texts are otherwise unknown, and the author was convicted by an ‘ecclesiastical court’ of falsehood and plagiarism.[2]

All the history of the times is great. I loved the book. I don’t care what’s ‘said’ about it. LOL

Thanks for the tip on the Archko book. I just bought it off ebay.
 
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Enoch111

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Just be aware that this apocryphal book was excluded from the canon for good reasons. When you read it in view of all other New Testament books, you will notice several statements which are inconsistent with the NT, e.g. baptismal regeneration.

'Barnabas clearly teaches purification of sin and new life through baptism: "This meaneth, that we indeed descend into the water full of sins and defilement, but come up, bearing fruit in our heart, having the fear [of God] and trust in Jesus in our spirit." (CCEL Barnabas, Epistle:XI)'

Views of Baptism as Regeneration in Ignatius, the Didache, Barnabas, Justin Martyr, and Irenaeus
 
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BreadOfLife

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Apocrypha means hidden, and that group of books should have remained hidden. They were of doubtful origin, not inspired.
WHO told you that the Deuterocanonical Books were NOT inspired??
 

Enoch111

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WHO told you that the Deuterocanonical Books were NOT inspired??
The Lord Jesus Christ Himself. The only books that were inspired according to Him were:

1. Torah = the Law of Moses or Moses = 5 books
2. Nebiim = the Prophets = 8 books
3. Kethubim = the Psalms = 11 books
TOTAL = 24 books = 39 OT books in the Protestant Bibles
 

BreadOfLife

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The 7 Books that were deleted by Protestants are called the “Deuterocanonical Books – not “Apocrypha”. These Books were part of the OPEN Jewish Canon in the 1st century. Jesus and the NT writers ALL studied from these Books. This is evident by the almost 200 quotes, references and allusions to them on the pages of the New Testament.

For example – the whole discussion of the “Armor of God” in Eph. 6:13-17 is taken - almost verbatim from Wisdom 5:17-20.

Jewish scholars removed these 7 Books LONG AFTER the Death, Resurrection and Ascension of Christ – and AFTER the destruction of the Temple. So – the OT Canon that Protestants adhere to is a POST-Christ, POST-Temple canon by the very people who rejected our Lord. This was done by your Protestant Fathers for no other reason that to further divorce themselves from the Catholic Church.

As for the Canon of the New Testament – THIS is how it came about . . .

- It was first officially declared at the Council of Rome in 382.
- It was reiterated and declared at the Synod of Hippo in 393. St. Augustine was one of the signors.
- In 397, It was once again declared at the Council of Carthage.
- It was again reaffirmed at the Council of Florence in 1442.
- It was finally officially closed at the Council of Trent in 1546 due to the perversions and editing that were happening within the splinters of Protestantism .

Ergo, it was the Catholic Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit (John 16:12-15) that declared the Canon of Scripture to the world. Men with NO authority have chipped away at it since . . .
 
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BreadOfLife

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The Lord Jesus Christ Himself. The only books that were inspired according to Him were:

1. Torah = the Law of Moses or Moses = 5 books
2. Nebiim = the Prophets = 8 books
3. Kethubim = the Psalms = 11 books
TOTAL = 24 books = 39 OT books in the Protestant Bibles
How does 24 = 39??

Secondly
– your litmus test fails because it does NOT include the New Testament.

The NT was declared canonical by none other than the CATHOLIC CHURCH at the Council of Rome in 382, reiterated at the Synod of Hippo in 393, reaffirmed at the Council of Carthage in 397 and so on. NOT all of the NT Books are prophetic - yet they were accepted as canonical SOLELY on the basis of the Authority of the Catholic Church. WHY is that??

The 7 Deuterocanonical Books - Tobit, Judith, 1 & 2 Maccabees, Wisdom, Baruch and Sirach, along with portions of Esther and Daniel – were PART of the OPEN Jewish Canon in the 1st century.

Before you simply dismiss the Deuterocanonicals -YOU need to explain why they were accepted during Jesus’s time but later rejected.

You ALSO need to explain why they are cited some 200 times in the NT – if they are NOT inspired.
 

Nondenom40

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How does 24 = 39??
I'm new here so some threads are new to me. Lets resurrect an old thread.

Haven't studied the canon much huh? The Hebrews combined books. Their 24 or in some cases 22 we separate into 39.

The NT was declared canonical by none other than the CATHOLIC CHURCH at the Council of Rome in 382, reiterated at the Synod of Hippo in 393, reaffirmed at the Council of Carthage in 397 and so on. NOT all of the NT Books are prophetic - yet they were accepted as canonical SOLELY on the basis of the Authority of the Catholic Church. WHY is that??
Ya i've heard this before. Those councils were regional councils, not binding on the entire church. And as for Rome 382 the Catholic historian Hefle in his five volumes of A History of the Councils of the Church; Vol 2 devotes a total of three pages to Rome 382 and never gives a canon. In fact on pp 381 he says 'no acts of this council has come down to us...' So exactly what canon was given at Rome in 382?

The 7 Deuterocanonical Books - Tobit, Judith, 1 & 2 Maccabees, Wisdom, Baruch and Sirach, along with portions of Esther and Daniel – were PART of the OPEN Jewish Canon in the 1st century.
The rc canon was never part of the Palestinian canon. Which is why Jerome rejected them;
Jerome; Prefaces to the Vulgate version of the Old Testament; Books of Samuel and Kings;

Books of Samuel and Kings

This preface to the Scriptures may serve as a "helmeted" introduction to all the books which we turn from Hebrew into Latin, so that we may be assured that what is not found in our list must be placed amongst the Apocryphal writings. Wisdom, therefore, which generally bears the name of Solomon, and the book of Jesus, the Son of Sirach, and Judith, and Tobias, and the Shepherd are not in the canon.

(from Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Series 2, Volume 6, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

Before you simply dismiss the Deuterocanonicals -YOU need to explain why they were accepted during Jesus’s time but later rejected.

You ALSO need to explain why they are cited some 200 times in the NT – if they are NOT inspired.
Deuterocanonical? Does God have a second canon thats uninspired? I'm aware of the term but i'm pretty sure Gods canon is inspired scripture. Do tell us what a second canon looks like? Is it from God or men? And Cardinal Cajetan, a contemporary of Luther rejected the apocrypha as well. He rejected it because Jerome rejected it.[/QUOTE]
 

CoreIssue

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I'm new here so some threads are new to me. Lets resurrect an old thread.

Haven't studied the canon much huh? The Hebrews combined books. Their 24 or in some cases 22 we separate into 39.


Ya i've heard this before. Those councils were regional councils, not binding on the entire church. And as for Rome 382 the Catholic historian Hefle in his five volumes of A History of the Councils of the Church; Vol 2 devotes a total of three pages to Rome 382 and never gives a canon. In fact on pp 381 he says 'no acts of this council has come down to us...' So exactly what canon was given at Rome in 382?

The rc canon was never part of the Palestinian canon. Which is why Jerome rejected them;



Deuterocanonical? Does God have a second canon thats uninspired? I'm aware of the term but i'm pretty sure Gods canon is inspired scripture. Do tell us what a second canon looks like? Is it from God or men? And Cardinal Cajetan, a contemporary of Luther rejected the apocrypha as well. He rejected it because Jerome rejected it.
[/QUOTE]
McCammon we have today is the one that the believers accepted in spite of the Catholic Church.

They rejected the Gnostic books of the apocryphal and additions to the Old Testament.

They remain true to the Old Testament adopted by believing Israel in the Old Testament times.

The KJV initially have the apocryphal. It was removed a long time later because believers didn't accept.

The Catholics make a lot of claims that history deny. They include supposed to sacred and holy documents in tradition as being superior to the Bible.

The Catholic Church has no claim on the Bible.
 

VictoryinJesus

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For example – the whole discussion of the “Armor of God” in Eph. 6:13-17 is taken - almost verbatim from Wisdom 5:17-20.

Not verbatim ...

“He shall take to him his jealousy for complete armour, and make the creature his weapon for revenge of his enemies. he shall put on righteousness as a breastplate, and true judgement instead of an helmet.
He shall take holiness for an invisible shield. His severe wrath shall he sharpen for a sword, and the world shall fight with him against the unwise.” Wisdom 5:17-20

Ephesians 6:13-17
[13] Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. [14] Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; [15] And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; [16] Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. [17] And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
 
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CoreIssue

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Ephesians 6:13-17 New International Version (NIV)
13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
 

CoreIssue

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Wisdom 5:17-20 New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)
17 He shall take his zeal for armor
and arm creation to requite the enemy,
18 Shall put on righteousness for a breastplate,
wear sure judgment for a helmet,
19 Shall take invincible holiness for a shield,
20 and sharpen his sudden anger for a sword.
The universe will war with him against the foolhardy;
 

VictoryinJesus

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Wisdom 5:17-20 New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)
17 He shall take his zeal for armor
and arm creation to requite the enemy,
18 Shall put on righteousness for a breastplate,
wear sure judgment for a helmet,
19 Shall take invincible holiness for a shield,
20 and sharpen his sudden anger for a sword.
The universe will war with him against the foolhardy;

Sounds different than the translation I have here. Someone gave us this book...it is old; not sure what translation it is. “True judgment instead of an helmet” stood out...so that is not the correct translation then?
 

CoreIssue

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Nondenom40

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McCammon we have today is the one that the believers accepted in spite of the Catholic Church.

They rejected the Gnostic books of the apocryphal and additions to the Old Testament.

They remain true to the Old Testament adopted by believing Israel in the Old Testament times.

The KJV initially have the apocryphal. It was removed a long time later because believers didn't accept.

The Catholics make a lot of claims that history deny. They include supposed to sacred and holy documents in tradition as being superior to the Bible.

The Catholic Church has no claim on the Bible.
Lots of people included the apocrypha in their bibles but it doesn't mean they thought they were inspired. Luthers bible had the apocrypha but he never thought they were part of the canon. Another citation from Jerome he says that those books can be read but not for doctrine.
 

VictoryinJesus

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In reference to “...make the creature his weapon...” do not know to what regard to hold those hidden books but it lines up, yeah? Except they (the passage in the book of wisdom) and the armour of God seen in Ephesians are not the same but opposite. One speaks of war. Ephesians speaks of peace. One speaks of a weapon of war. Ephesians putting on the armour of God to be able to stand. One speaks of iniquity and its price ‘shall lay waste the whole earth’, Ephesians speaks of Salvation and the children of the promise; children born of the Spirit. “their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord”

From wisdom link you posted: “Yea, a mighty wind shall stand up against them, and like a storm shall blow them away: thus iniquity shall lay waste the whole earth, and ill dealing shall overthrow the thrones of the mighty.”


Isaiah 54:16-17
[16] Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy. [17] No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord , and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord .
 
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Taken

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What's with this thing called THE APOCRYPHA?<---- OP

Description

Apocrypha are works, usually written, of unknown authorship or of doubtful origin. Biblical apocrypha is a set of texts included in the Latin Vulgate and Septuagint but not in the Hebrew Bible. While Catholic tradition considers some of these texts to be deuterocanonical, Protestants consider them apocryphal. Wikipedia

What to CONSIDER?

God Finds Grace in Moses.
God Appoints Moses to Receive Gods Law.
God Writes on stone Tablets.
Moses Breakes the stone Tablets.
God directs Moses to Write on stone Tablets.
God Directs Moses to Give the Laws to the People.
The People AGREE to Obey the Laws.
God Appoints Aaron High Priest.
God directs Aaron to Write the Curse Laws.

CONSIDER the bit by bit evolvement of METHOD;

SPEAKER, WRITER, RECORDER.
Moses.......Scribes....Priests

Not much different Today;
Speaker....Speaks
Writer.......Writes as Speaker Speaks
Recorder....Complies Official Record

SPEAKER, WRITER, RECORDER
Politician...Secretary.....official record
Advocate...Staff...........Staff
Preacher....Secretary.....Staff
Teacher.....Government..Government
Authority...Parent/Employer....Parent/Staff
Etc............

In the Beginning....
Men were communicating with WRITING, pictures, drawings, sketches....
BEFORE, God Wrote on Tablets of Stone.
And BEFORE, God Directed Moses to Write. And BEFORE Aaron was Directed to Write.

And BEFORE God Appointed Particular "TRIBAL" (ISRAEL) Scribes and Recorders Were Appointed
TO; Write/ Inscribe/Record/Hide the Recordings;
AND rehearse the Inscriptions IN THE EARS of the next Generation of "ISRAEL".

CONSIDER:
Writings, Scribes, Recorders....Were NOT a new phenomen.

What WAS NEW....IS Specific Writings, Scribes, Recordings....Were Directed TO Specifically "ISRAEL"....Gods People.
BY the Authority and Approval of God Himself.

CONSIDER:
Writings, Scribes, Recorders...WERE COMMON
Among kings, rulers, monarchs, etc.

CONSIDER:
Gods Direction was to TRIBES of ISRAEL...

Point being;
Certainly there would be Writings, Scribes, Recorders, reporting the news of the day....
(Concering the Government, the people)...
Which at times most certainly DID include mention of the Tribes of Israel.....
However, nothing proclaims their WRITINGS, should be INCLUDED in the Books which God Directed to be Established.

Glory to God,
Taken
 
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BreadOfLife

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I'm new here so some threads are new to me. Lets resurrect an old thread.

Haven't studied the canon much huh? The Hebrews combined books. Their 24 or in some cases 22 we separate into 39.

Ya i've heard this before. Those councils were regional councils, not binding on the entire church. And as for Rome 382 the Catholic historian Hefle in his five volumes of A History of the Councils of the Church; Vol 2 devotes a total of three pages to Rome 382 and never gives a canon. In fact on pp 381 he says 'no acts of this council has come down to us...' So exactly what canon was given at Rome in 382?

The rc canon was never part of the Palestinian canon. Which is why Jerome rejected them;

Deuterocanonical? Does God have a second canon thats uninspired? I'm aware of the term but i'm pretty sure Gods canon is inspired scripture. Do tell us what a second canon looks like? Is it from God or men? And Cardinal Cajetan, a contemporary of Luther rejected the apocrypha as well. He rejected it because Jerome rejected it.
[/QUOTE]
Sorry - but WHO told you this nonsense??
It is historically bankrupt.

First of all - the 73 Book Canon of Scripture was declared at the Council of Rome in 382.

Secondly - Jerome never "rejected" the Deuterocanonical Books.
Jerome sought help from Jewish scholarship in his Latin Translation. It was the Jewish Scholars who rejected the Deuterocanonical Books - NOT Jerome. Jerome went on to refer to those Books as "Sacred Scripture" in his writings and debates.

Time for a Bible lesson . . .

- The Septuagint (Greek OT) was translated by 70 JEWISH (NOT Catholic) Scholars - about 200 years before the birth of Christ.
- There were 7 Books that were part of the OPEN Jewish Canon of the 1st Century (Baruch, Sirach, Wisdom, Tobit, Judith, 1 & 2 Maccabees) along with portions of Daniel and Esther.
- This is the Canon of Scripture that Jesus and the NT writers studied from - and they are referred to some 200 TIMES in the New Testament.


Now, pay attention because here's where it gets ugly . . .

AFTER Jesus died, rose and ascended to Heaven - the Apostles started their mission. Around the years 70 AD, Jerusalem was sacked by the Romans and the Temple was destroyed. SOME rabbis began to have second thoughts about the Deuterocanonical Books because of their "Hellenistic" influence in the Diaspora (Dispersed Jews). Around the year 135, during the 2nd Jewish Revolt - a leading rabbi at the rabbinical school in Jamnia named Akiva declared TWO things:

a. A man named Simon Bar Kokhba was the "real" messiah. He turned out to be a false messiah and Akiva was a false prophet.
b. The Deuterocanonical Books needed to be REMOVED from the OPEN Canon - and the canon closed.


SO - you Protestants adhere to a POST-Christ, POST-Temple OT Canon that was determined by a FALSE Prophet (Akiva) who declared a FALSE Christ (Kokhba)

Here's the worst part: the ONLY reason your Protestant Fathers chose to do this was to further-divorce themselves from the Catholic Church.
 
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