Sabatarianism

CoreIssue said:

There is no such thing as Sabbath keeping on the seventh day in the new testament.

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There is probably a psychological term describing the above post of yours, but I haven't heard it. If there's not one, perhaps someone should invent it.
You are willing to use 3 instances, three! where the apostles happened to be together as the foundation for overturning a 4 millennium old holy day while ignoring over 50 instances where that holy day was upheld.

gadar perets said:

We don't return to types and shadows. We continue keeping those that have not been fulfilled by Messiah. He gives us a spiritual rest from sin and from seeking to be justified by works. He does NOT give us a physical rest for our bodies. If he did, we would not need to sleep anymore. Nor would the believers in Revelation 14:13 need to rest from their labors.


Does this mean he saves us from the Sabbath, the old covenant or both?

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Ug! Don't you hate it when you have this great big (awesome!) post written out, then your connection crashes, and you loose it?!
I don't really have the time to noodle it out again, either, sorry! But...

Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. -Colossians 2:16–17

I tell you, something greater than the temple is here. And if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless. For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath.” -Matthew 12:6–8

And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. -Mark 2:27

Basically, even if we allow for a distinction between 'moral law' (the 10) and ceremonial law, you still cannot disregard the fact that grace must cover all of it. As sinful beings, we are incapable of following any law perfectly, and in Matt 5:21-37 Christ makes it abuntantly clear that an outward keeping of the 10 is not good enough...we must also keep it perfectly inwardly too, if we want to use that to 'clock up' our salvation points. As no one but Christ can do that, we must, thankfully, rest upon grace for our salvation.

Do not mistake me, I am not claiming we rest in our sin, claiming 'grace has got it'. Our lives should be lived in response to grace, in constant effort to put sin to death and to become ever more Christlike.

In regards to the Sabbath, then...how do we view it, if it too, is under grace? Well...there are a few things. First...while Christ goes through the moral law in various ways in the NT, teaching that we should do the best we can to uphold it, his example, and teachig, about the Sabbath differes. He does not tell us to 'keep it'. He says it is 'made for us, not us for it'. He also points to himself as being the ultimate Sabbath, just as he is the ultimate temple, or ultimate sacrifice. What does this mean? It means that we look to Christ for the rest and renewal that the 'Sabbath' gives. And his 'rest' is from the constant struggle of trying to earn salvation and never suceeding. "Come to me, all you who are weary and heavy laden...and I will give you rest...."

Naomi25 said:

Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. -Colossians 2:16–17

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Let's first determine the context of chapter two. In verses 4 and 8 Paul warns the Colossians about deceivers. Then again, in verse 18, Paul gives his final warning about these same deceivers. In what way were they trying to deceive the Colossians? Verse 8 tells us that they were trying to exalt the traditions of men over the Messiah (verses 8 & 19).

Notice carefully the context; the traditions of men in verse 8, 18, and 22. The verses that occur between 8 and 22 must be understood based on the context of the traditions of men.

It was the deceivers of verses 4,8, and 18 that were judging the Colossians regarding the things mentioned in verse 16. They had been imposing their man-made commandments and traditions upon the Colossians. Paul told them not to allow anyone to judge them concerning those matters. An important addition was made in the KJV that does not appear in any Greek manuscript. The word "is " in verse 17 was added, which changes the meaning of Paul's statement. That is why it is written in italics. Retaining the word "is" implies the thought of shadow vs. reality which is why our modern versions (including the one you quoted from) use "substance" or "reality" . In other words, Messiah fulfilled the shadow of the things mentioned in verse 16. However, if you remove the added word "is", it implies that we should not let any man outside the body of Messiah judge us in respect to these things. Indeed that is in line with the context of Paul's previous statements. Notice Colossians 1:18 & 24 and Col 2:19, all of which teach us that the "body" of Messiah is the church or all true believers. So, in reality, the Colossians were keeping Sabbaths and feasts because they were unfulfilled shadows, but outsiders were judging them as to how they kept those days and concerning what they were eating and drinking.

Notice, also, that Paul speaks of them as shadows yet to come in his future. Why, if Yeshua fulfilled them at the cross? The fact is, Yeshua did not fulfill them. He fulfilled the sacrifices offered on those days, but not the shadows of the days themselves. The Colossians were correctly keeping those days and Paul was warning them about outsiders influencing them.

I tell you, something greater than the temple is here. And if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless. For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath.” -Matthew 12:6–8

And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. -Mark 2:27

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Yes, the Sabbath is the Lord's day. No man has any right to rob him of it and make him Lord of a different day. The Sabbath was made for all men, not just the Jews. It was made for us as well as all men that desire to walk in YHWH's ways. It is the only day of the week blessed and sanctified by YHWH. No man has a right to remove its holiness and blessedness and make Sunday holy and blessed. Sunday is just another workday.

Basically, even if we allow for a distinction between 'moral law' (the 10) and ceremonial law, you still cannot disregard the fact that grace must cover all of it. As sinful beings, we are incapable of following any law perfectly, and in Matt 5:21-37 Christ makes it abuntantly clear that an outward keeping of the 10 is not good enough...we must also keep it perfectly inwardly too, if we want to use that to 'clock up' our salvation points. As no one but Christ can do that, we must, thankfully, rest upon grace for our salvation.

Click to expand...

We do not keep the Sabbath to be saved. We keep it because we are saved. Obedience to our Father's commandments are a fruit of our salvation. I agree that an outward keeping of the Ten is not enough, but that does not mean we neglect the outward keeping of any of them. We outwardly do not steal, murder, commit adultery, etc. We go one step further and keep the outward and the inward.

Do not mistake me, I am not claiming we rest in our sin, claiming 'grace has got it'. Our lives should be lived in response to grace, in constant effort to put sin to death and to become ever more Christlike.

Click to expand...

Great!. Now apply that to the Sabbath as well. Allow the Holy Spirit to write that commandment on your heart as well so you can walk as Messiah walked, in full obedience to all.

In regards to the Sabbath, then...how do we view it, if it too, is under grace? Well...there are a few things. First...while Christ goes through the moral law in various ways in the NT, teaching that we should do the best we can to uphold it, his example, and teachig, about the Sabbath differes. He does not tell us to 'keep it'. He says it is 'made for us, not us for it'.

Click to expand...

He said it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. That implies keeping it. You can't do good on something that no longer exists. He did not say the Sabbath is abolished or changed. He also said not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law until all is fulfilled. That certainly includes all Ten. We are to keep all Ten outwardly and inwardly.

He also points to himself as being the ultimate Sabbath, just as he is the ultimate temple, or ultimate sacrifice. What does this mean? It means that we look to Christ for the rest and renewal that the 'Sabbath' gives. And his 'rest' is from the constant struggle of trying to earn salvation and never suceeding. "Come to me, all you who are weary and heavy laden...and I will give you rest...."

Click to expand...

We are never told that the rest he gives us is the Sabbath rest. We are told the a Sabbath rest remains for the people of God (Hebrews 4). Do not confuse the rest the Son gives us with the Sabbath rest his Father gave us.

gadar perets said:

Let's first determine the context of chapter two. In verses 4 and 8 Paul warns the Colossians about deceivers. Then again, in verse 18, Paul gives his final warning about these same deceivers. In what way were they trying to deceive the Colossians? Verse 8 tells us that they were trying to exalt the traditions of men over the Messiah (verses 8 & 19).

Notice carefully the context; the traditions of men in verse 8, 18, and 22. The verses that occur between 8 and 22 must be understood based on the context of the traditions of men.

It was the deceivers of verses 4,8, and 18 that were judging the Colossians regarding the things mentioned in verse 16. They had been imposing their man-made commandments and traditions upon the Colossians. Paul told them not to allow anyone to judge them concerning those matters. An important addition was made in the KJV that does not appear in any Greek manuscript. The word "is " in verse 17 was added, which changes the meaning of Paul's statement. That is why it is written in italics. Retaining the word "is" implies the thought of shadow vs. reality which is why our modern versions (including the one you quoted from) use "substance" or "reality" . In other words, Messiah fulfilled the shadow of the things mentioned in verse 16. However, if you remove the added word "is", it implies that we should not let any man outside the body of Messiah judge us in respect to these things. Indeed that is in line with the context of Paul's previous statements. Notice Colossians 1:18 & 24 and Col 2:19, all of which teach us that the "body" of Messiah is the church or all true believers. So, in reality, the Colossians were keeping Sabbaths and feasts because they were unfulfilled shadows, but outsiders were judging them as to how they kept those days and concerning what they were eating and drinking.

Click to expand...

It's of interest to me, when in speaking of 'man-made' deception and tradition, that scripture clearly shows the Pharisees to be in Christ's sights most, when it comes to calling out these things. And what...or where, do we see the Pharisees objecting to Christ the most? His 'work' on the Sabbath. To them, it seemed just as bad as his claims to be God's Son.
And how do we see Christ responding? Does he tell them that they are sort of right about the Sabbath but have just added to much? Does he tell them they're half way there?
No...not at all. He tells them all the 'excuses' men had in the OT to break the Sabbath...why? Because strict observance is not what the Sabbath was about! (Matt 12:7 - "I desire mercy and not sacrifice!, you would not have condenmed the guiltless.") First we find out that Sabbath is actually FOR man...for our benefit...for the rest we find in it...in God (Mark 2:27), then we find out that the true rest, not just a 'shadow' rest, is found in Christ himself (Matt 12:6; Col 2:17) and that all scripture, all history, has been pointing in his direction and his coming (John 5:39).

So...does strict "Sabbath" day observance count as man made tradition? Yes, it does, because it refuses to see the obvious fact that Christ is the true Sabbath. He is not a day, a place or a ritual. We come to him as we are, whenever we choose and as often as we like. That is what he won for us on the cross and when the temple curtain was torn. In him we find not only our true rest, but our ONLY rest.

Notice, also, that Paul speaks of them as shadows yet to come in his future. Why, if Yeshua fulfilled them at the cross? The fact is, Yeshua did not fulfill them. He fulfilled the sacrifices offered on those days, but not the shadows of the days themselves. The Colossians were correctly keeping those days and Paul was warning them about outsiders influencing them.

Click to expand...

Has Christ returned a second time, this time as the Victorious King, to finally conquer death and do away with sin forever? Because until that time comes...while he extends grace to all sinful people on this planet, the Kingdom of God has not fully come.
But to say that Christ did not fulfill all those types or shadows in his sacrificial work upon the cross, in his death, burial and resurrection, is against the preponderance of scripture. Everything we read tells us the focus point of redemptive history was upon him, his work on the cross and the New Covenant that that ushered in. If you cannot recognize that, you may as well tear out the NT.

Yes, the Sabbath is the Lord's day. No man has any right to rob him of it and make him Lord of a different day. The Sabbath was made for all men, not just the Jews. It was made for us as well as all men that desire to walk in YHWH's ways. It is the only day of the week blessed and sanctified by YHWH. No man has a right to remove its holiness and blessedness and make Sunday holy and blessed. Sunday is just another workday.

Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but I heartily disagree here. Do you remember the temple curtain, torn from top to bottom? Do you not recongnise the symbolism there? Where before, in the Old Covenant, only the High Priest, on one day a year, only after cleasing himself properly, could enter into the Holy of Holies. After Christ's death, after the torn curtain, each of us can approach the throne of grace with confidence (Heb 4:16), calling out 'Abba, Father!' (Rom 8:15). In such a close and intimate relationship as father and sons, we do not have just one day that is 'blessed' by God, in which to worship, praise, fellowship and seek our rest in him. We have every day. Therefore, which day we choose to meet together as a Church family is rather incidental.

gadar perets said:

We do not keep the Sabbath to be saved. We keep it because we are saved. Obedience to our Father's commandments are a fruit of our salvation. I agree that an outward keeping of the Ten is not enough, but that does not mean we neglect the outward keeping of any of them. We outwardly do not steal, murder, commit adultery, etc. We go one step further and keep the outward and the inward.

Click to expand...

So...you never feel anger, or admire another woman's (or man's...sorry your profile doesn't say!) appearence? You don't find yourself wishing you had that fancy car your neighbour or friend just purchased....even for a second? Even just a split instant before you remind yourself that you shouldn't think/feel that way?
Every Christian makes the attempt, out of love and gratitude for their saviour to keep the moral laws. But no one suceeds 100% of the time...hence the need for grace.

And I would think that anyone so intent on listening to what Christ had to say about such things, would also recognise what he had to say about the Sabbath. We can find confirmation of 9 of the 10 commandments scattered throughout Christ's teaching, but when it comes to the Sabbath, he quite soundly puts himself as the reality to the shadow it had been...the true rest to the 'practice' rest.

Great!. Now apply that to the Sabbath as well. Allow the Holy Spirit to write that commandment on your heart as well so you can walk as Messiah walked, in full obedience to all.

Click to expand...

Well, I would say He has. Both the Spirit and the Word seem clear on the issue. Christ IS the true Sabbath. Not a day.
You see...for me, it seems rather easy to tell if something has wabbled off into 'man-made' territory in this wonderful, new covenant era. It's not focused on Jesus. If it's focused too much on themselves (we can become gods!) its man-made. If its 'all about Israel' and not about Jesus, it's man-made. And, forgive me, but if it's all about a day and not about Jesus, then it's man-made. It's all about the Son. The WHOLE Old Testament is about the coming of Christ and the NEED for him. It's not good enough to just point to God and go "God said it was good". Because we have Israeli people NOW worshipping the correct God! They read from the OT! And without Jesus, it means nothing. They have missed the whole point, every point, the main point...the only point.
So...if you cannot show me that Jesus saying that he IS the truth, and the Sabbath just a shadow was just a funny point about something else...I'm going to believe him, and not you. Sorry.

He said it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. That implies keeping it. You can't do good on something that no longer exists. He did not say the Sabbath is abolished or changed. He also said not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law until all is fulfilled. That certainly includes all Ten. We are to keep all Ten outwardly and inwardly.

Click to expand...

You are quite missing his point. "I prefer mercy, not sacrifice"....
Ritual and routine will never save. I know you don't 'claim' they do...but, you sort of act like it. By steadfastly clinging to 'Saturday only' worship, against all other days, you are, in fact, taking the heart out of worship. Christ would say 'come to me, wherever you are, as you are, whenever you can make it, and be with me'. THAT'S what he's after...genuine love, affection and worship. Not strict adherence to a rule that only pointed to him in the first place.

We are never told that the rest he gives us is the Sabbath rest. We are told the a Sabbath rest remains for the people of God (Hebrews 4). Do not confuse the rest the Son gives us with the Sabbath rest his Father gave us.

Click to expand...

Oh, really? You don't find it at all 'convenient' that when talking of the Sabbath Christ says 'something "greater" than the temple is here" and that he is "Lord of the Sabbath"? Or that Paul tells us that the Sabbath is a "shadow of things to come of which the substance belongs to Christ". Or that the writer of Hebrews says that 'law has but a shadow' and that they 'serve as copy and shadow of the heavenly things'...of which Christ is now a High Priest, seated at the right hand of the Throne.
You may be able to ride the pony that says scripture doesn't 'outright state' that Christ is the true Sabbath....but I'm afraid that's where it ends. The intent is clear. Just as Christ is the true temple, the true Israel, the true sacrifice...he is also the true Sabbath.


It seems to me that you are attempting to smoosh Christianity and old school Judaism together into a wonderful little roll.
Pharisaical adherance to the 10 will not fit together with grace and the freedom Christ and Paul preach.
The wonderful thing about the 'freedom' of grace...? If properly understood, it leads to devotion and a joyful giving of oneself...wholely...to Christ. Not a dutiful observance of certain rules. And, as we see in scripture, that is what Christ is after.

Naomi25 said:

So...you never feel anger, or admire another woman's (or man's...sorry your profile doesn't say!) appearence? You don't find yourself wishing you had that fancy car your neighbour or friend just purchased....even for a second? Even just a split instant before you remind yourself that you shouldn't think/feel that way?
Every Christian makes the attempt, out of love and gratitude for their saviour to keep the moral laws. But no one suceeds 100% of the time...hence the need for grace.

And I would think that anyone so intent on listening to what Christ had to say about such things, would also recognise what he had to say about the Sabbath. We can find confirmation of 9 of the 10 commandments scattered throughout Christ's teaching, but when it comes to the Sabbath, he quite soundly puts himself as the reality to the shadow it had been...the true rest to the 'practice' rest.



Well, I would say He has. Both the Spirit and the Word seem clear on the issue. Christ IS the true Sabbath. Not a day.
You see...for me, it seems rather easy to tell if something has wabbled off into 'man-made' territory in this wonderful, new covenant era. It's not focused on Jesus. If it's focused too much on themselves (we can become gods!) its man-made. If its 'all about Israel' and not about Jesus, it's man-made. And, forgive me, but if it's all about a day and not about Jesus, then it's man-made. It's all about the Son. The WHOLE Old Testament is about the coming of Christ and the NEED for him. It's not good enough to just point to God and go "God said it was good". Because we have Israeli people NOW worshipping the correct God! They read from the OT! And without Jesus, it means nothing. They have missed the whole point, every point, the main point...the only point.
So...if you cannot show me that Jesus saying that he IS the truth, and the Sabbath just a shadow was just a funny point about something else...I'm going to believe him, and not you. Sorry.


You are quite missing his point. "I prefer mercy, not sacrifice"....
Ritual and routine will never save. I know you don't 'claim' they do...but, you sort of act like it. By steadfastly clinging to 'Saturday only' worship, against all other days, you are, in fact, taking the heart out of worship. Christ would say 'come to me, wherever you are, as you are, whenever you can make it, and be with me'. THAT'S what he's after...genuine love, affection and worship. Not strict adherence to a rule that only pointed to him in the first place.



Oh, really? You don't find it at all 'convenient' that when talking of the Sabbath Christ says 'something "greater" than the temple is here" and that he is "Lord of the Sabbath"? Or that Paul tells us that the Sabbath is a "shadow of things to come of which the substance belongs to Christ". Or that the writer of Hebrews says that 'law has but a shadow' and that they 'serve as copy and shadow of the heavenly things'...of which Christ is now a High Priest, seated at the right hand of the Throne.
You may be able to ride the pony that says scripture doesn't 'outright state' that Christ is the true Sabbath....but I'm afraid that's where it ends. The intent is clear. Just as Christ is the true temple, the true Israel, the true sacrifice...he is also the true Sabbath.


It seems to me that you are attempting to smoosh Christianity and old school Judaism together into a wonderful little roll.
Pharisaical adherance to the 10 will not fit together with grace and the freedom Christ and Paul preach.
The wonderful thing about the 'freedom' of grace...? If properly understood, it leads to devotion and a joyful giving of oneself...wholely...to Christ. Not a dutiful observance of certain rules. And, as we see in scripture, that is what Christ is after.

Click to expand...

The ceremonial Sabbath was part of the old economy and Hebrews 7.12 says that the law was changed and Hebrews 7.19 say that what we now have is better than the law.

Naomi25 said:

It's of interest to me, when in speaking of 'man-made' deception and tradition, that scripture clearly shows the Pharisees to be in Christ's sights most, when it comes to calling out these things. And what...or where, do we see the Pharisees objecting to Christ the most? His 'work' on the Sabbath. To them, it seemed just as bad as his claims to be God's Son.
And how do we see Christ responding? Does he tell them that they are sort of right about the Sabbath but have just added to much? Does he tell them they're half way there?
No...not at all. He tells them all the 'excuses' men had in the OT to break the Sabbath...why? Because strict observance is not what the Sabbath was about! (Matt 12:7 - "I desire mercy and not sacrifice!, you would not have condenmed the guiltless.") First we find out that Sabbath is actually FOR man...for our benefit...for the rest we find in it...in God (Mark 2:27), then we find out that the true rest, not just a 'shadow' rest, is found in Christ himself (Matt 12:6; Col 2:17) and that all scripture, all history, has been pointing in his direction and his coming (John 5:39).

So...does strict "Sabbath" day observance count as man made tradition? Yes, it does, because it refuses to see the obvious fact that Christ is the true Sabbath. He is not a day, a place or a ritual. We come to him as we are, whenever we choose and as often as we like. That is what he won for us on the cross and when the temple curtain was torn. In him we find not only our true rest, but our ONLY rest.

Click to expand...

It amazes me how you got all of that out of "and I will give you rest". You overturn 4,000 years of the 7th day being blessed and sanctified because you read the Sabbath into those words. Incredible.

Has Christ returned a second time, this time as the Victorious King, to finally conquer death and do away with sin forever? Because until that time comes...while he extends grace to all sinful people on this planet, the Kingdom of God has not fully come.
But to say that Christ did not fulfill all those types or shadows in his sacrificial work upon the cross, in his death, burial and resurrection, is against the preponderance of scripture. Everything we read tells us the focus point of redemptive history was upon him, his work on the cross and the New Covenant that that ushered in. If you cannot recognize that, you may as well tear out the NT.

Click to expand...

I recognize all of that except for "fulfill all those types or shadows". What is the fulfillment of Yom Teruah (Day of Trumpets)? The fact is, he did NOT fulfill all types and shadows. The Millennium will fulfill the Sabbath as we rest for 1,000 years after working for 6,000 years. When the Millennium ends, then perhaps the Sabbath will end. That is why we see all flesh worshiping YHWH from one Sabbath to another in the new heavens and new earth (Isaiah 66:22-23). YHWH's time piece of new moons will also continue throughout the Millennium.

I'm sorry, but I heartily disagree here. Do you remember the temple curtain, torn from top to bottom? Do you not recongnise the symbolism there? Where before, in the Old Covenant, only the High Priest, on one day a year, only after cleasing himself properly, could enter into the Holy of Holies. After Christ's death, after the torn curtain, each of us can approach the throne of grace with confidence (Heb 4:16), calling out 'Abba, Father!' (Rom 8:15). In such a close and intimate relationship as father and sons, we do not have just one day that is 'blessed' by God, in which to worship, praise, fellowship and seek our rest in him. We have every day. Therefore, which day we choose to meet together as a Church family is rather incidental.

Click to expand...

First, this has nothing to do with the weekly Sabbath. Second, worship, praise and fellowship seven days a week are not the issue. We can do those things seven days a week. Although we are commanded to worship on the Sabbath, if your church family wants to meet on Sunday, go for it. It is not forbidden to do so. However, it is forbidden to work on the 7th day. To do so is sin and it will not go unrewarded. That is not to say you will lose your salvation by working on the 7th day, but you will certainly lose rewards in the Kingdom.

Naomi25 said:

So...you never feel anger, or admire another woman's (or man's...sorry your profile doesn't say!) appearence? You don't find yourself wishing you had that fancy car your neighbour or friend just purchased....even for a second? Even just a split instant before you remind yourself that you shouldn't think/feel that way?
Every Christian makes the attempt, out of love and gratitude for their saviour to keep the moral laws. But no one suceeds 100% of the time...hence the need for grace.

Click to expand...

Grace does not abolish law. It is a blessing we receive when we break the law. However, grace is not a license to continue in sin. To continue to work on the 7th day is to trample on grace.

And I would think that anyone so intent on listening to what Christ had to say about such things, would also recognise what he had to say about the Sabbath. We can find confirmation of 9 of the 10 commandments scattered throughout Christ's teaching, but when it comes to the Sabbath, he quite soundly puts himself as the reality to the shadow it had been...the true rest to the 'practice' rest.

Click to expand...

He did no such thing. He honored the Sabbath, kept it holy and taught us how to keep it properly as opposed to the Pharisaical way of making the Sabbath a burden. "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous." 1 John 5:3

Well, I would say He has. Both the Spirit and the Word seem clear on the issue. Christ IS the true Sabbath. Not a day.
You see...for me, it seems rather easy to tell if something has wabbled off into 'man-made' territory in this wonderful, new covenant era. It's not focused on Jesus. If it's focused too much on themselves (we can become gods!) its man-made. If its 'all about Israel' and not about Jesus, it's man-made. And, forgive me, but if it's all about a day and not about Jesus, then it's man-made. It's all about the Son. The WHOLE Old Testament is about the coming of Christ and the NEED for him. It's not good enough to just point to God and go "God said it was good". Because we have Israeli people NOW worshipping the correct God! They read from the OT! And without Jesus, it means nothing. They have missed the whole point, every point, the main point...the only point.
So...if you cannot show me that Jesus saying that he IS the truth, and the Sabbath just a shadow was just a funny point about something else...I'm going to believe him, and not you. Sorry.

Click to expand...

Any teaching that undermines YHWH's commandments and teaches men to break them is "man-made". As Yeshua said, to do so will cause you to be the least in the Kingdom (Matthew 5:19). That is where you have chosen to tread. I choose to teach people to obey the commandments out of love for YHWH and our neighbors. Do not try and pit Yeshua against YHWH's Sabbath. He upheld it and kept it holy and he is our example.

You are quite missing his point. "I prefer mercy, not sacrifice"....
Ritual and routine will never save. I know you don't 'claim' they do...but, you sort of act like it. By steadfastly clinging to 'Saturday only' worship, against all other days, you are, in fact, taking the heart out of worship. Christ would say 'come to me, wherever you are, as you are, whenever you can make it, and be with me'. THAT'S what he's after...genuine love, affection and worship. Not strict adherence to a rule that only pointed to him in the first place.

Click to expand...

The Sabbath is not a ritual. It is a way of life as are the other nine commandments. I never said anything concerning "Saturday only worship". That is you trying to add to my words things that are not true. Yes, he is after "genuine love". That is why he said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." The same holds true for our Heavenly Father as 1 John 5:3 shows. If we don't keep His commandments, we do NOT have genuine love for Him.

Oh, really? You don't find it at all 'convenient' that when talking of the Sabbath Christ says 'something "greater" than the temple is here" and that he is "Lord of the Sabbath"?

Click to expand...

He is not the Lord of a day that no longer exists or of a day that we are free to trample on.

Or that Paul tells us that the Sabbath is a "shadow of things to come of which the substance belongs to Christ".

Click to expand...

Paul never used the word "substance". That is a false translation by Sabbath trampling translators. The Greek word is soma meaning the body. In context it means the Body of Messiah (the believers).

Or that the writer of Hebrews says that 'law has but a shadow' and that they 'serve as copy and shadow of the heavenly things'...of which Christ is now a High Priest, seated at the right hand of the Throne.

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Hebrews 10:1-14 is talking about the shadows of animal sacrifices, not the Sabbath. However, Hebrews 10:16 goes on to tell us how the Law (Torah) would be written on our hearts and minds under the New Covenant. That includes the Sabbath, all Ten Cs, the two greatest commandments, the dietary laws, the Feast Days, etc. If you don't want them written there, so be it. It's your choice. YHWH will not force His laws upon you. A heart of genuine love for Him will readily embrace them.

It seems to me that you are attempting to smoosh Christianity and old school Judaism together into a wonderful little roll.
Pharisaical adherance to the 10 will not fit together with grace and the freedom Christ and Paul preach.
The wonderful thing about the 'freedom' of grace...? If properly understood, it leads to devotion and a joyful giving of oneself...wholely...to Christ. Not a dutiful observance of certain rules. And, as we see in scripture, that is what Christ is after.

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If you think I'm Pharisaical, then you have no idea what Pharisaical adherence to the 10 was. They couldn't even carry a handkerchief on the Sabbath. The fact is, every word of YHWH is my bread, as is Yeshua, the bread of life. So when YHWH says not to work on the 7th day, I obey knowing that doing so is for my good.

BTW, in case you didn't know it, YHWH's grace is found throughout the OT, even while they were to obey YHWH's commandments. The law is designed to point out sin. When we look into the mirror of the law, we see the sin on our face. We then go to Yeshua to be cleansed by his blood. We receive grace through sincere repentance. You are using a broken mirror in which you cannot see the dirt/sin of Sabbath breaking on your face so you can repent of it. You go on your merry way thinking you are clean, but your sin of Sabbath breaking remains. You need a new mirror. The one YHWH wants to put in your heart; Torah.

Naomi25, why did you "Like" post #67? Do you not know that Hebrew 7:12 does not refer to the entire law, but only the law concerning what tribe the high priest could come from?

Naomi25 said:

So...you never feel anger, or admire another woman's (or man's...sorry your profile doesn't say!) appearence? You don't find yourself wishing you had that fancy car your neighbour or friend just purchased....even for a second? Even just a split instant before you remind yourself that you shouldn't think/feel that way?
Every Christian makes the attempt, out of love and gratitude for their saviour to keep the moral laws. But no one suceeds 100% of the time...hence the need for grace.

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Sorry my sis, but may I butt into your conversation here? I see this addressed a great deal in forums whenever the law is mentioned or brought up... Now I'm not saying this pertains to you personally, but I wonder how many say these exact things as you have said above, because they themselves struggle in that area and think everyone else should or does as well.
The issue I think lies in the problem of a lack of faith. Christians under appreciate what God is capable of in truly converting His children. While there are certain areas where I do war against the flesh, I have firm faith that in Gods good time the victory over sin will be complete that such struggling will for all intents and purposes, be over, although we will remain mindful of the grace wherein we walk. Your example above is a classic one.
Faith in God's power and willingness to deliver us from all sin can take us beyond that point where we struggle if we see things we do not possess, such as our neighbour coming into possession of a brand new Mustang. While we may admire the new car, it is absolutely possible that in that and every other situation that may similarly arise, we may genuinely and instantly be glad and joyful on behalf of our neighbour for the blessing he had received.
This same pure and holy response is attainable for everyone in every situation whatever the commandment, including the Sabbath commandment where nearl y all non Sabbath observers automatically think it impossible to observe the Sabbath without some sense of self satisfaction and self glorifying or "work" toward impressing God.

CoreIssue said:

This is seventh day or Saturday worship.

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Keeping special days is bad. Celebrations are good.

SkyWriting said:

Keeping special days is bad. Celebrations are good.

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I guess you never read how Yeshua said it was lawful to do good on the Sabbath (a special day). Or that he is Lord of the Sabbath (a special day). Perhaps you never read Isaiah 66:22-23 where we are told all flesh will worship YHWH from one special day to another in the new heavens and new earth. Verse 24 tells us those who worship YHWH from one Sabbath to another and from one New Moon to another will look upon the carcasses of those who transgress His commandments (in other words, they broke His laws by, among other things, trampling on His special days).

gadar perets said:

I guess you never read how Yeshua said it was lawful to do good on the Sabbath

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And the reason for that, being that days were not meant to be special if it interferes with
- doing what one knows is good
- accepting, or not accepting people because they observe special days.

Galatians 4:10
Romans 14:6
Colossians 2:16
Romans 14:5

So my comments were not intended to be scripture for readers.
Thanks for checking into it.

SkyWriting said:

Galatians 4:10
Romans 14:6
Colossians 2:16
Romans 14:5

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None of these verses say keeping YHWH's special days is bad.

gadar perets said:

None of these verses say keeping YHWH's special days is bad.

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Correct.
My comments were not intended to taken as representing scripture.

SkyWriting said:

Correct.
My comments were not intended to taken as representing scripture.

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???

gadar perets said:

It amazes me how you got all of that out of "and I will give you rest". You overturn 4,000 years of the 7th day being blessed and sanctified because you read the Sabbath into those words. Incredible.

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If you think that I 'got all that' out of six simple words, you weren't really reading what I wrote. Christ telling us that he will 'give us rest' is but a confirmation of who he truly is for us, of what we can find in him. Those words are not a doctrine in and of themselves.

And just because something had been done for 4000 years, does not mean Christ intended us to continue blithely on with in. Please consider WHY he came. You seem to be missing large chunks of that just so you can tick off 'worship on a particular day'. That seems rather sad to me. And quite contrary to all the NT has to tell us.

I recognize all of that except for "fulfill all those types or shadows". What is the fulfillment of Yom Teruah (Day of Trumpets)? The fact is, he did NOT fulfill all types and shadows. The Millennium will fulfill the Sabbath as we rest for 1,000 years after working for 6,000 years. When the Millennium ends, then perhaps the Sabbath will end. That is why we see all flesh worshiping YHWH from one Sabbath to another in the new heavens and new earth (Isaiah 66:22-23). YHWH's time piece of new moons will also continue throughout the Millennium.

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Okay...let me try and put it this way: we know that every type and shadow in the OT pointed to Christ, right? That when they celebrated the Passover, for example, we know now, from our vantage point in history, after Christ's revelation and our having received scripture, that they celebrated God passing over their sins and sparing them death, and that the sacrifical lamb paid for the sins instead. Right?
And at this place in time, this side of the cross, it is wrong to celebrate passover as if it were only in memberance of Israels deliverance from Eygpt. Instead, as Christians, we recognize and praise the true passover lamb: Christ. Because we know that everything in the OT pointed towards Christ.
Let me ask you then; if we know that Christ is the true revelation of ALL types and shadows, even if the particular event of that type has not yet been fulfilled in his return, we still know it WILL happen, so it it not then equal foolishness to be celebrating the shadow still when we have knowledge of the truth and the actual? Christ may not have returned and set up his 'millennial kingdom' (debatable if that happens only when he returns), but we know that the feasts, and the types and shadows points to him and him alone. To continue on in OT expectation, like he hasn't come at all, is, to my mind, to live like a modern day Jew...denying the Messiah. And to listen to all the NT has to say about 'the Sabbath', we cannot ignore that something new and better is here in Christ.

First, this has nothing to do with the weekly Sabbath. Second, worship, praise and fellowship seven days a week are not the issue. We can do those things seven days a week. Although we are commanded to worship on the Sabbath, if your church family wants to meet on Sunday, go for it. It is not forbidden to do so. However, it is forbidden to work on the 7th day. To do so is sin and it will not go unrewarded. That is not to say you will lose your salvation by working on the 7th day, but you will certainly lose rewards in the Kingdom.

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If you can find a single thing in the NT confirming any of that, I'll be surprised.

gadar perets said:

Grace does not abolish law. It is a blessing we receive when we break the law. However, grace is not a license to continue in sin. To continue to work on the 7th day is to trample on grace.

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No, grace does not abolish law. But the NT is very clear: if you try and live by the law, you better get it perfect.
The fact is, only one man EVER got it perfect; Christ Jesus.
When we try and live a life by law, ALL we get is legalism which leads to the road the Pharisees walked; we know how that went down with God.
When we walk with grace, we walk with the understanding that we can never be perfect like Christ. We will never be able to keep all the laws. We will ALWAYS need grace and forgiveness. And thus it is out of love, gratitude and awe that we look towards Christ in our walk, and the more we do that, the more our lives naturally bend towards him, becoming more like his and less like sin. Because when our eyes are upon Christ we naturally hate sin as he does.
But that does not come from the law, from the observance of it. It comes from loving Christ and loving what he does: his word and what is righteous.

See: Romans 4:2–3, Romans 4:14–16, Romans 7:1,4–6, Romans 8:1–4

He did no such thing.

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He did not what? Speak of the other 9 commandments? Or imply he was our Sabbath rest in truth? I'm assuming the latter.
Let's forget for a moment that Christ is the point of everything. He is the true everything, which would also mean Sabbath. But, we can also surmize from scripture that we are to find our true, indeed our only real rest, in him, when we come spiritually to him and have our inner man reborn:


Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said,
“As I swore in my wrath,
‘They shall not enter my rest,’”
although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.” And again in this passage he said,
“They shall not enter my rest.”
Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, again he appoints a certain day, “Today,” saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted,
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”
For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.
-Hebrews 4:1–10


Is it coincidence that the Sabbath and 'entering my rest' is mentioned in the same passage? Or...what about the fact that clearly the Israelites didn't find it...that sort of 'rest'...when no doubt they were 'keeping the Sabbath'. What is the author then talking about? Clearly he is speaking of finding that rest...that 'Sabbath type' of rest, IN God himself, in a way Abraham had, and in a way everyone who truly places their faith and belief in Christ does.


Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. -Colossians 2:16–17

I tell you, something greater than the temple is here. And if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless. For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath.” -Matthew 12:6–8

He honored the Sabbath, kept it holy and taught us how to keep it properly as opposed to the Pharisaical way of making the Sabbath a burden. "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous." 1 John 5:3

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Again, you seem to be labouring under a misapprehension. Christ lived under the old covenant. To fulfil the old covenant and laws, he had to first live them perfectly. That would have meant the Sabbath as well. So it in not surprising that he himself 'kept' the Sabbath...of course the 'proper' one.
However, when we look at his teachings on the Sabbath, and the teachings the apostles after him gave, then we are left with a different picture.

In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. -Hebrews 8:13

Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. -Romans 14:4–5

Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. -Colossians 2:16–17

He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, and those who were with him: how he entered the house of God and ate the bread of the Presence, which it was not lawful for him to eat nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests? Or have you not read in the Law how on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath and are guiltless? I tell you, something greater than the temple is here. And if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless. -Matthew 12:3–7

You may think you are "doing the Sabbath better" than the Pharisees...that you haven't fallen prey to the man-made rules like they did. But by missing the NT's point that JESUS is the true Sabbath, just as he is the true temple, just as he is the true sacrifice, the true Jonah, the true passover (and on and on), you are, sadly, doing the same thing....attempting to tick a box on 'God's list' to curry favour. Even if you do not see it as a 'salvation winner', you still see it as a necessity, a rule, a requirement. And sadly, in a very real way, that actually makes a person's salvation 'second rate' if they don't keep the Sabbath. You are, friend, judging me based on a day or Sabbath.
That is unscriptural.

Any teaching that undermines YHWH's commandments and teaches men to break them is "man-made". As Yeshua said, to do so will cause you to be the least in the Kingdom (Matthew 5:19). That is where you have chosen to tread. I choose to teach people to obey the commandments out of love for YHWH and our neighbors. Do not try and pit Yeshua against YHWH's Sabbath. He upheld it and kept it holy and he is our example.

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But here's the thing: Christ will never contradict The Father. If the OT is pointing towards Christ, and the ultimate fulfilment that is Him, then the NT and everything that Jesus says, about himself and the new covenant, should not be at odds with the Father. However, if what people say about the OT teaching goes against NT teaching, we must then believe that they have it wrong: the reason? Progressive revelation.
We must interpret the Old Testament in terms of God’s progressive revelation in his covenants in order to discern how to apply it today. The NT clearly came after the OT in history, which means it's "new information"....very much like any 'story' we might read, the more information we have, the more the story makes sense; the more that is revealed, the more we understand.
Biblical history is no different. Once Christ came, we understood that pretty much the entire OT was pointing to him. In type and shadow, but also in just need. People are broken and there is only one person who can save us; Jesus; the God man.

So, my point is this: If Christ comes and teaches something different about the Sabbath than the 10, we take the progressive revelation from God, above the old. We take the updated info over the old. It makes no sense to send ourselves back to a chapter one understanding when we've just finished the book.

gadar perets said:

The Sabbath is not a ritual. It is a way of life as are the other nine commandments. I never said anything concerning "Saturday only worship". That is you trying to add to my words things that are not true. Yes, he is after "genuine love". That is why he said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." The same holds true for our Heavenly Father as 1 John 5:3 shows. If we don't keep His commandments, we do NOT have genuine love for Him.

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See....I'm getting this big schism from you. You say, on one hand, that the Sabbath issue is NOT a salvational issue. And yet, on the other hand, you lump it into 'if you don't do it (keep the Sabbath) you don't love Jesus. Which....let's just be honest...is a salvational issue.

You speak often about what Jesus actually says on 'the commandments', but...mmm...I dunno. Seems to me that when Jesus spoaks of keeping "his commandments" he's specifically pointing to the one he's just spoken about: "love one another".
We also know he commands us to "Love the Lord your God will all your heart, strength and mind, and love your neighbour as yourself". And, of course, we could go through the passages where he touches on the fact that if we have anger for our brother, we've just done the equivilent to murder.

My point being: if you INSIST that the NT supports the keeping of the Saturday Sabbath....how about you show it?

He is not the Lord of a day that no longer exists or of a day that we are free to trample on.

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I can't say I understand your point here, sorry.

Paul never used the word "substance". That is a false translation by Sabbath trampling translators. The Greek word is soma meaning the body. In context it means the Body of Messiah (the believers).

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My...that's convenient, isn't it?
The problem with that is: it makes zero sense. "Let no one judge you in regards to a... Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the 'body (church)' belongs to Christ."

No one is to judge us about festivals or days because they're shadows of things to come BUT the church belongs to Christ.

Perhaps that would make a little sense if it said AND the church belongs to Christ.

No...the reason it's translated that way is because to use 'the body...the church' makes the passage nonsensical. However, if something is formerly a shadow, and is now made 'body' or 'reality' or 'substance' in Christ....which also fits every other theological understanding about Christ throughout OT and NT...THEN it makes sense.

Hebrews 10:1-14 is talking about the shadows of animal sacrifices, not the Sabbath. However, Hebrews 10:16 goes on to tell us how the Law (Torah) would be written on our hearts and minds under the New Covenant. That includes the Sabbath, all Ten Cs, the two greatest commandments, the dietary laws, the Feast Days, etc. If you don't want them written there, so be it. It's your choice. YHWH will not force His laws upon you. A heart of genuine love for Him will readily embrace them.

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Wait....you include the dietary laws and the feast days?!
How's about this....New Testament verses that prove it?
Because here's the skinny: I can find NT verses that tell me I am under grace, not law. I can find NT verses that tell me I have freedom to worship on any day, not just Saturday. I can find NT verses telling me the POINT of the Sabbath was Christ all along. And I most certainly can find NT verses telling me that dietary laws and feasts are not something I am bound to.
So...if you want to have a conversation with any shred of credibility, you have to have it rest on something more than what the OT says. AND it has to go hand in hand with what I've just mentioned the NT says. Because if you cannot show, persuaisively, that your NT verses either show mine to be mis-read or wrong...there IS no conversation.

If you think I'm Pharisaical, then you have no idea what Pharisaical adherence to the 10 was. They couldn't even carry a handkerchief on the Sabbath. The fact is, every word of YHWH is my bread, as is Yeshua, the bread of life. So when YHWH says not to work on the 7th day, I obey knowing that doing so is for my good.

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But aren't you, again, missing the point? The point Christ was making was not "the Pharisees are going way overboard, you guys need to narrow down your check list"...it was that he wanted their hearts, not their adherance to rules, no matter what, or how many, those rules where. Because let's face it, you are still claiming that SOME rules are required. You might say it's not a requirement of salvation, but the moment you tack it on after salvation, you're making it a requirement to KEEP it...which would be something to boast in, no? Doesn't Paul tell us:


I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. -Galatians 1:6–7


Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? -Galatians 3:2–3

As Christians we strive to live LIKE Christ, in RESPONSE to salvation. But it cannot be a rule, a requirement we meet. Because if it is, and we achieve it (which right there is a problem, as we cannot, that's why Christ came), we then have something to boast in and by 'perfected by the flesh' in.

BTW, in case you didn't know it, YHWH's grace is found throughout the OT, even while they were to obey YHWH's commandments. The law is designed to point out sin. When we look into the mirror of the law, we see the sin on our face. We then go to Yeshua to be cleansed by his blood. We receive grace through sincere repentance. You are using a broken mirror in which you cannot see the dirt/sin of Sabbath breaking on your face so you can repent of it. You go on your merry way thinking you are clean, but your sin of Sabbath breaking remains. You need a new mirror. The one YHWH wants to put in your heart; Torah.

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Do you want to know why I KNOW I am clean? Because none of it rests upon my work, or my failure to DO or NOT DO anything...even keep the Sabbath, should it turn out I have been mistaken.
Everything, my salvation, my keeping IN the faith, my growing closer to Christ every day...that is held by one and one alone...Christ. It is in HIS strength and perfection...his being and his redemptive work on the cross, that my sins are forgiven. And his work is not lacking at all. To say that I've left that smudge there, that there is something left of my own making that Christ's sacrifice cannot cover, is not only defeating your claim that it's not linked to salvational issues, but you are, in fact, saying that Christ's work and being is NOT sufficient to cover all my sins.
And that is simply not true and not biblical.