Perfection In Christ

CoreIssue · May 24, 2019

ScottA said:
It has barely been a day since you accused me of erroneously speaking for God. Now it is okay for you to speak for God and decide just how His word will not return void?

You have no credibility to say such a thing.

All I did was point out a translation error.

ScottA · May 24, 2019

CoreIssue said:
All I did was point out a translation error.

All I did was point out the irony...and I didn't even give you a hard time for not quoting the scripture.

...if you are correct...praise be to God!

CoreIssue · May 24, 2019

ScottA said:
All I did was point out the irony...and I didn't even give you a hard time for not quoting the scripture.

...if you are correct...praise be to God!

The difference is if asked for a quote I would and could do it. You do not.

ScottA · May 24, 2019

CoreIssue said:
The difference is if asked for a quote I would and could do it. You do not.

One more nail.

CoreIssue · May 24, 2019

ScottA said:
One more nail.

For you.

Pre-Trib Rapper · May 24, 2019

Where in the New Testament did it state that Jesus as a child was immature? When I first read it in this forum, I thought it was a blasphemous viewpoint.

Episkopos · May 24, 2019

Pre-Trib Rapper said:
Where in the New Testament did it state that Jesus as a child was immature? When I first read it in this forum, I thought it was a blasphemous viewpoint.

Luke 2:52 And Jesus continued to advance in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.

Jesus was not born an adult. He began as a baby...advanced through childhood...and became a mature adult.

Your thought about blasphemy shows that you don't really believe that Jesus was fully human...and this is a common error among believers today.

BTW welcome here!

amadeus · May 24, 2019

Episkopos said:
From faith to faith. Blessed is he that believes and has not seen. But also "blessed is he that is not offended in Me."

It isn't wise to pit what is good against what is perfect. Humility tells us that God's will is what is important not the ruffled pride of they who are not the center of attention. Christ is at the center...not people.

The wise Phoenician lady was happy to receive the crumbs of a meal meant for others. But where is that wisdom in today's world? She received what she asked for.

I believe that ONLY people with that kind of humility will receive of the higher things of God.

God indeed gives grace to the humble.

Indeed, God's crumbs are better than the best that any carnal man has to offer!

SkyWriting · May 24, 2019

Episkopos said:
Jesus commands us and compels us to "Be perfect (teleos)." (Mat. 5:48)His resurrection ensures that we have been given the grace to obey and conform to His will that we do just that very thing.

But there are many unbelievers in the ranks of they who say they are believers. Many believe for a personal benefit...like salvation without faith...without truth...without holiness. But these same people will claim to be "holy" sinners....or "born again" sinners. No hint of actual grace or spiritual birth.

These then know nothing of the eternal life in Christ.

Perfection is to walk as Jesus walked...without any taint of sin. We can walk this way from the first moment of a new spiritual birth IN Christ. This is not a maturity thing...but a purity afforded by the blood of Jesus. His life is in His blood.

If we are not walking in His life...then we are not "under the blood." We are not yet under grace. Many people who claim to be under grace are in fact still under the law practically speaking. They get stuck half-way...and remain there. They are only half-converted. There is no power over sin in an "almost there" scenario. Although we do sin less as we get closer to God. But that is not being "perfect" as He is perfect.

Jesus spoke of this perfection in regards to forsaking everything in this life to follow Him...

Mat. 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect (teleos), go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

The heavenly walk is that of teleos...perfection. The supernatural walk of abiding in Christ.

In the OT a man could be tamim...innocent of evil....and shalem...having an intimate knowledge of God. But even then there was no supernatural power in the walk itself. One could have clean hands and a pure heart...and no one more than John the Baptist....as Jesus said.

But the least in the perfect walk is greater than the greatest in the consecrated life that is in the natural walk. It is like saying the least thing in the supernatural realm is greater than the greatest thing in the natural realm. John the Baptist was under the law....and did quite well. But perfection lies only under grace.

We only experience moments of that (actual) perfection during fleeting seconds of prayer
when we are connected to the Holy Spirit. The rest we are forgiven for.

Jesus was not sentenced to death for the crime of perfection, but for submitting to the Father completely.

Pre-Trib Rapper · May 24, 2019

Episkopos said:
Luke 2:52 And Jesus continued to advance in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.

Jesus was not born an adult. He began as a baby...advanced through childhood...and became a mature adult.

Your thought about blasphemy shows that you don't really believe that Jesus was fully human...and this is a common error among believers today.

BTW welcome here!

-------------------------------------

Jesus was not fully human (you're implying He was 100% human and He could sin?). He was God and man at the same time. Jesus could not sin, He did no sin and in Him was no sin. Even as a growing child, Jesus was mature since He is God.

Pre-Trib Rapper · May 24, 2019

SkyWriting said:
We only experience moments of that (actual) perfection during fleeting seconds of prayer
when we are connected to the Holy Spirit. The rest we are forgiven for.

Jesus was "perfect" in that He was always in the Spirit of the Father, even at birth.
But lets not pretend he never swatted a fly or stepped on an ant or offended somebody. He didn't even stay with his family and caused them days of searching for Him as a child. He was a pill.

----------------------------------------------------------------

No, we are not told in the New Testament that Jesus swatted a fly or stepped on an ant or that He laughed. We do know He wept. Yes, He offended unbelievers with His preaching against sin. God sees us as perfect in His Son Jesus, not that we are perfect in ourselves. Jesus was God all the time even as a child; perfection is not congruent with immaturity.

Episkopos · May 24, 2019

Pre-Trib Rapper said:
-------------------------------------

Jesus was not fully human (you're implying He was 100% human and He could sin?). He was God and man at the same time. Jesus could not sin, He did no sin and in Him was no sin. Even as a growing child, Jesus was mature since He is God.

You see...you are not getting who Jesus is...He could have sinned. He was and is 100% human. You are thinking He was half and half.

But then you are making Him into a superman...rather than see that He came to us so we could be exactly as He is. As He is so are we in this world.

So you are missing the truth of who Jesus is. And consequently you don't think it is possible or necessary to walk as he walked. Or to abide in Him in truth. (I know everybody thinks it's a doctrine to believe that they are In Him because they have accepted the truth ABOUT Jesus)

Pre-Trib Rapper · May 24, 2019

Episkopos said:
You see...you are not getting who Jesus is...He could have sinned. He was and is 100% human. You are thinking He was half and half.

But then you are making Him into a superman...rather than see that He came to us to we could be exactly as He is. As He is so are we in this world.

So you are missing the truth of who Jesus is. And consequently you don't think it is possible or necessary to walk as he walked. Or to abide in Him in truth. (I know everybody thinks it's a doctrine to believe that they are In Him because they have accepted the truth ABOUT Jesus)

-----------------

You said "He could have sinned." That's plain blasphemy! I will no longer converse with you.

Episkopos · May 24, 2019

SkyWriting said:
We only experience moments of that (actual) perfection during fleeting seconds of prayer
when we are connected to the Holy Spirit. The rest we are forgiven for.

Jesus was not sentenced to death for the crime of perfection, but for submitting to the Father completely.

OK now we're onto something here. That is true...that until we enter into Him fully...we will experience these flashes of light...these eternal moments. The same goes for the moment we are born of the Spirit. For some it is but a moment of perfection. But for others longer.

For me it was days of walking in the light so that I grew panicky that I would never walk as an ordinary man again...I wanted out.

There is an abiding IN that experience of God. John calls it being in the light as He is in the light. Paul calls it putting on the armour of light and walking in the Spirit.

And this secret...this mystery is hidden from basically the whole modern church. But this is the grace of God...the kingdom walk. It is the purpose of Jesus coming to earth. That we might be reconnected in that fellowship...eternally....starting now.

So there is a keeping power of God. if I testified that I walked in that intimacy for a few years...I don't expect anyone to believe me.

That's the extent of my walk in His perfection...3 days at first and then 20 years later ...a few years. That's it. Out of 40 years as a disciple. I don't see my faith walk as that impressive really.

Episkopos · May 24, 2019

Pre-Trib Rapper said:
-----------------

You said "He could have sinned." That's plain blasphemy! I will no longer converse with you.

You have have Jesus having no need of faith. That is not who Jesus was and is.

In all ways Jesus was tempted as we are. yet He was without sin. It doesn't say that He was without temptation. So with every temptation there is a need to overcome. And with that a risk of succumbing to that temptation. Otherwise Jesus would not be human.

Episkopos · May 24, 2019

amadeus said:
Indeed, God's crumbs are better than the best that any carnal man has to offer!

But the pride and indoctrination are so great in the churches of today that unless you pander to the fantasy that every single spoiled believer will one day rule with Christ....there is a hizzy fit to contend with.

Where's the humility if there is so much grace?

There is a huge surprise coming for so many...and I don't want people to say to me that they were not warned.

amadeus · May 24, 2019

Episkopos said:
But the pride and indoctrination are so great in the churches of today that unless you pander to the fantasy that every single spoiled believer will one day rule with Christ....there is a hizzy fit to contend with.

Where's the humility if there is so much grace?

There is a huge surprise coming for so many...and I don't want people to say to me that they were not warned.

As you probably already know, in most churches today, you would never be allowed to speak the messages you bring here to this forum. Never mind that most congregations would not receive or believe or understand what you were saying. In most places the powers that be [definitely NOT the power of God... unless it were His left hand] would never let you near a the pulpit or a microphone. People on this forum try to build a wall around their doctrinal positions, but here they cannot stop you from asking questions or stating your position or presenting an argument... even if no one bothered to read it. In most church building groups in the physical places you would be prevented.

"Forgive them for they know not what they do!

Episkopos · May 24, 2019

amadeus said:
As you probably already know, in most churches today, you would never be allowed to speak the messages you bring here to this forum. Never mind that most congregations would not receive or believe or understand what you were saying. In most places the powers that be [definitely NOT the power of God... unless it were His left hand] would never let you near a the pulpit or a microphone. People on this forum try to build a wall around their doctrinal positions, but here they cannot stop you from asking questions or stating your position or presenting an argument... even if no one bothered to read it. In most church building groups in the physical places you would be prevented.

"Forgive them for they know not what they do!

I would not have lasted long in a time where orthodoxy to a man-made doctrine was enforced by legal authority. But the persecution of today is to be evil spoken of, mis-understood, misrepresented and shunned. But these same people also put Jesus to death. I am in good company...as all who live in Christ will be hated by the world.

Religion seems right until it encounters truth and perfection. Religion relies on men being incapable to know God without human structures and intermediaries. Religion offers the solution to the inabilities of the carnal man.

But a man of faith goes right to God in Christ...without any form of religion or taint of man-inspired and man-centered doctrines.

Jesus Christ is a huge offense to the religious man. How can nobodies know God better than they?

amadeus · May 24, 2019

Episkopos said:
I would not have lasted long in a time where orthodoxy to a man-made doctrine was enforced by legal authority. But the persecution of today is to be evil spoken of, mis-understood, misrepresented and shunned. But these same people also put Jesus to death. I am in good company...as all who live in Christ will be hated by the world.

Religion seems right until it encounters truth and perfection. Religion relies on men being incapable to know God without human structures and intermediaries. Religion offers the solution to the inabilities of the carnal man.

But a man of faith goes right to God in Christ...without any form of religion or taint of man-inspired and man-centered doctrines.

Jesus Christ is a huge offense to the religious man. How can nobodies know God better than they?

What is already happening is the very definition of the words Christian and Christianity are being changed to fit the patterns of the majority of the churches bearing supposedly "Christian" names. Then any remaining legal rights under the laws of men of people to worship and serve God will upheld to the fullest only for those pseudo Christians while the real followers of Jesus really will lose their rights as they no will longer qualify as Christians under the law unless they are willing to jump on somebody's legal band wagon. This is how they will bypass constitutional protections in the United States and I would guess in other countries as well.

SkyWriting · May 24, 2019

Episkopos said:
OK now we're onto something here. That is true...that until we enter into Him fully...we will experience these flashes of light...these eternal moments. The same goes for the moment we are born of the Spirit. For some it is but a moment of perfection. But for others longer.

For me it was days of walking in the light so that I grew panicky that I would never walk as an ordinary man again...I wanted out.

There is an abiding IN that experience of God. John calls it being in the light as He is in the light. Paul calls it putting on the armour of light and walking in the Spirit.

And this secret...this mystery is hidden from basically the whole modern church. But this is the grace of God...the kingdom walk. It is the purpose of Jesus coming to earth. That we might be reconnected in that fellowship...eternally....starting now.

So there is a keeping power of God. if I testified that I walked in that intimacy for a few years...I don't expect anyone to believe me.

That's the extent of my walk in His perfection...3 days at first and then 20 years later ...a few years. That's it. Out of 40 years as a disciple. I don't see my faith walk as that impressive really.

Yes, I've known one Spirit filled Christian in the past 40 years.
He tended the family pig farm for a living.

Perfection In Christ

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