The Coming Great Apostasy

Davy · May 26, 2019

Pre-Trib Rapper said:
2 Thess 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV
-------------------------

After hearing Drs. Andy Woods and Tommy Ice preach on 2 Thessalonians 3 & 4, I tend to agree with them that "THE falling away first" was the KJV "mis-translation" of the Greek apostasia which could mean the physical departure (i.e. the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of real Christians) of the Church rather than a spiritual departure from the truth. In the Greek, the key word preceding apostasia is "THE" which refers to a SPECIFIC event. Since the Church was first formed on the day of Pentecost 10 days after Jesus was caught up to Heaven to be with His Father, spiritual declension was setting in the assemblies of believers.

Now, when Post-Tribbers ask me where in the Bible does it teach a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, I point them to 2 Thessalonians 3 & 4 and say the Apostle Paul first taught this vital doctrine and not John Nelson Darby. Notice the chronology:

1. That day (i.e. 7-year Tribulation Period) shall not come until:
2. The falling away "apostasia" (the Pre-Tribulation Rapture) first happened:
3. Then that man of sin (i.e. THE Antichrist) be revealed.

Post-Tribbers cannot differentiate between the "appearing" of Christ in the air and Jesus's physical return to Earth seven years after the Tribulation Period. Jesus's appearing in the air above Earth to snatch us up to the Father's house of many mansions = our blessed hope.

FUNNY SCHOLARSHIP.

Copperhead · May 26, 2019

The one aspect of the post trib position that doesn't seem to work for me. If the rapture does not occur till right at the return of Messiah, and the rapture would be of those who are redeemed, then who are those that are separated as the sheep and the goats of Matthew 25 (which is a exposition on Joel 3) that will occur in the valley of Jehoshaphat along the Mt of Olives if the redeemed are raptured and that leaves only the condemned?

Also, who then is still mortal that would go into the Messianic kingdom to repopulate the earth? There will be children in the kingdom. There will still be sin and death in the kingdom. And most of all, there will be a final rebellion at the end of the millennial period of the kingdom.

Davy · May 26, 2019

Copperhead said:
The one aspect of the post trib position that doesn't seem to work for me. If the rapture does not occur till right at the return of Messiah, and the rapture would be of those who are redeemed, then who are those that are separated as the sheep and the goats of Matthew 25 if the redeemed are raptured and that leaves only the condemned?

Also, who then is still mortal that would go into the Messianic kingdom to repopulate the earth? There will be children in the kingdom. There will still be sin and death in the kingdom. And most of all, there will be a final rebellion at the end of the millennial period of the kingdom.

If you'd simply quit listening to the pre-trib preacher's confusion, and only stick with God's Holy Writ, you would not have problems sorting all that out.

1. 7th trumpet - "day of the Lord":
Christ's coming; all alive on earth changed at the twinkling of an eye; gathering of His Church; 1st resurrection; battle of Armageddon north of Jerusalem; great valley split of Zech.14; God's consuming fire burning man's works off the earth. Flesh time is over.

2. Christ's Millennial reign:
Satan and kings of the earth locked in the pit prison. Only the "second death" remaining. 1st resurrection only not subject to the second death. God's River and tree of life re-established on earth. Camp of the saints established on earth at Jerusalem. Nations dwelling outside the beloved city required to come up from year to year to worship The KING, Lord of hosts. Christ's Church teaching the difference between holy and profane, clean and unclean. Ezekiel temple manifested on earth.

3. After the Millennium:
Satan loosed a final time to tempt the nations. God's consuming fire burns those up that come up against the camp of the saints on earth. GWT Judgment, the wicked, death, and hell go into the lake of fire. God creates the new heavens and a new earth. No more temple. Full Godhead returns to earth.

Copperhead · May 26, 2019

Davy said:
3. After the Millennium:
Satan loosed a final time to tempt the nations. God's consuming fire burns those up that come up against the camp of the saints on earth. GWT Judgment, the wicked, death, and hell go into the lake of fire. God creates the new heavens and a new earth. No more temple. Full Godhead returns to earth.

But if only the redeemed go into the kingdom, and they are raptured at the time Yeshua returned, then what mortals remain to repopulate the earth? If only the redeemed are raptured go into the kingdom, then who will have children in the kingdom? And if only the redeemed are raptured go into the kingdom, then who are those that sin and die in the kingdom? If only the redeemed are raptured go into the kingdom, then why does Yeshua need to rule with a rod of iron which suggests there are those getting out of line in the kingdom that have to be dealt with?

Post trib cannot answer these issues to any satisfaction from scripture.

Copperhead · May 26, 2019

Davy said:
If you'd simply quit listening to the pre-trib preacher's confusion, and only stick with God's Holy Writ, you would not have problems sorting all that out.

I do stick with Yahweh's Word. I also adhere to the requirement of the Torah of Yahweh's Word that states for any matter to be established, it must be supported by the testimony of at least two witnesses. And according to Yahweh's Word, the Bereans in Acts 17 provided the example of how that works. Anything they were taught by Paul (which most became the NT), they checked the OT (the only scripture they had) to see if what Paul taught them was true.

So, following the scripture alone, adhering to the requirements of scripture regarding establishing a matter or doctrine, any position on these matters must have ample evidentiary support from both OT and NT. The Post Trib position doesn't meet that standard.

Davy · May 26, 2019

Copperhead said:
But if only the redeemed go into the kingdom, and they are raptured at the time Yeshua returned, then what mortals remain to repopulate the earth? If only the redeemed are raptured go into the kingdom, then who will have children in the kingdom? And if only the redeemed are raptured go into the kingdom, then who are those that sin and die in the kingdom? If only the redeemed are raptured go into the kingdom, then why does Yeshua need to rule with a rod of iron which suggests there are those getting out of line in the kingdom that have to be dealt with?

Post trib cannot answer these issues to any satisfaction from scripture.

Those OT verses you're referring to about repopulation and having children are expressions. When Yeshua returns, all peoples on earth will be changed to the "spiritual body" like Apostle Paul hinted at, pulling from Isaiah 25 about death being swallowed up in victory.

Isa 25:6-9
6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

9 And it shall be said in that day, "Lo, This is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: This is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.
KJV

The "face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations" is in connection with that "He will swallow up death in victory." That is showing everyone left is going to be changed, including the nations, not just Christ's Church.

It's like I've said many times, the future world to come will not be one of new flesh bodies. It will be a world manifesting in the "spiritual body", an outward body image of incorruption, i.e., the resurrection type body Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15. The things of this present world will be no more, and that means making babies. The wicked will have those incorruptible bodies also, but their souls will still be in a liable to die condition by not accepting Yeshua, and that is the "second death" they will be subject to, the only type of death remaining in that future world with one's incorruptible body with mortal soul thrown into the lake of fire.

Davy · May 26, 2019

Copperhead said:
I do stick with Yahweh's Word. I also adhere to the requirement of the Torah of Yahweh's Word that states for any matter to be established, it must be supported by the testimony of at least two witnesses. And according to Yahweh's Word, the Bereans in Acts 17 provided the example of how that works. Anything they were taught by Paul (which most became the NT), they checked the OT (the only scripture they had) to see if what Paul taught them was true.

So, following the scripture alone, adhering to the requirements of scripture regarding establishing a matter or doctrine, any position on these matters must have ample evidentiary support from both OT and NT. The Post Trib position doesn't meet that standard.

I disagree with your understanding, because God's Word nowhere teaches a pre-trib rapture return of Yeshua. Those you're listening to have duped you. I can show more than two Scripture witnesses that reveal Christ's coming to gather His Church is after the tribulation.

Keraz · May 26, 2019

Davy said:
I disagree with your understanding, because God's Word nowhere teaches a pre-trib rapture return of Yeshua. Those you're listening to have duped you. I can show more than two Scripture witnesses that reveal Christ's coming to gather His Church is after the tribulation.

There are two scriptures that show God's holy people on earth, in the holy Land, just 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns; Daniel 7:23, Revelation 13:7
They will be conquered by the Anti-Christ leader of the World Government, Zechariah 14:1-2, but half of those Christians will go to a place of safety, the other half must remain. Revelation 12:14-17

There is no 'rapture to heaven' for anyone excepting the 2 Witnesses and they are murdered first, as many other martyrs will be too. Jesus will bring their souls back with Him and they will be brought back to life for the Millennium. Revelation 20:4

Davy · May 26, 2019

Keraz said:
There are two scriptures that show God's holy people on earth, in the holy Land, just 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns; Daniel 7:23, Revelation 13:7

They will be conquered by the Anti-Christ leader of the World Government, Zechariah 14:1-2, but half of those Christians will go to a place of safety, the other half must remain. Revelation 12:14-17

There is no 'rapture to heaven' for anyone excepting the 2 Witnesses and they are murdered first, as many other martyrs will be too. Jesus will bring their souls back with Him and they will be brought back to life for the Millennium. Revelation 20:4

Jesus told His servants in Jerusalem for that time to get out of Judea when they see the "abomination of desolation" setup, and for those of His in the countries to not enter in (Matt.24; Mark 13; Luke 21). It's because He is going to flatten that area of the temple mount when He comes.

Copperhead · May 26, 2019

Davy said:
Those OT verses you're referring to about repopulation and having children are expressions. When Yeshua returns, all peoples on earth will be changed to the "spiritual body" like Apostle Paul hinted at, pulling from Isaiah 25 about death being swallowed up in victory.

Still does not explain why Yeshua and the redeemed (Revelation 2:26-27) are having to rule with a rod of iron if everyone is redeemed and in their spiritual bodies. Ruling with a rod of iron implies having to rule harshly due to some folks getting out of line. And if they are redeemed and in their spiritual bodies, where does the group come from that Satan is able to foment a rebellion against the Lord when Satan is released per Revelation 20 and Psalms 2? Are you implying that the redeemed will rebel against the Lord? Or are the redeemed in their spiritual bodies able to still procreate and kick out little heathens that will rebel down the road?

And the kingdom parables of Matthew 13 also imply that there are still evil, sin, and rebellion in the kingdom. That would explain the ruling with a rod of iron.

All of the above could only be a reality if there is mortal people still with the sin nature that have survived the tribulation period and entered into the Millennial kingdom.

Lady Crosstalk · May 26, 2019

Copperhead said:
Still does not explain why Yeshua and the redeemed (Revelation 2:26-27) are having to rule with a rod of iron if everyone is redeemed and in their spiritual bodies. Ruling with a rod of iron implies having to rule harshly due to some folks getting out of line. And if they are redeemed and in their spiritual bodies, where does the group come from that Satan is able to foment a rebellion against the Lord when Satan is released per Revelation 20 and Psalms 2? Are you implying that the redeemed will rebel against the Lord?

And the kingdom parables of Matthew 13 also imply that there are still evil, sin, and rebellion in the kingdom. That would explain the ruling with a rod of iron.

All of the above could only be a reality if there is mortal people still with the sin nature that have survived the tribulation period and entered into the Millennial kingdom.

The Millennial Kingdom must have mortals as part of it. The ruling "Prince" in the description of the Millennial Kingdom contained in the Book of Ezekiel from chapters 37-48, says that the Prince will have sons who gain an inheritance from him. Jesus has already told us that resurrected people will not be married and that we will be like the angels in heaven--there has never been even the slightest hint that God's holy angels have children.

Now, that is not to rule out resurrected people from having some interaction with the mortal subjects of the Millennial Kingdom. In addition to a refurbishment of the earth, there will apparently be a restoration of excellent health and long life. Isaiah says that "no longer will people be considered old at 100" and that "no longer will infants die after only a few days". It describes further idyllic conditions--such as were probably present in Eden. "The wolf and the lamb will feed together. The lion will eat hay like a cow", etc. This indicates that there may be modifications to the DNA of all of the biome. The mutations that have built up in the genomes of all species of life have already caused a lot of extinctions. Some population geneticists have said even humans are vulnerable to a population "crash" in the fairly near future because of the buildup of mutations in the human genome.

Keraz · May 26, 2019

Davy said:
It's because He is going to flatten that area of the temple mount when He comes.

Jesus will 'flatten' nothing when He Returns. He will destroy the worlds armies at Armageddon and chain up Satan, that's all. Revelation 19:11-21
His Day of fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal event is years before the Return. It will be that Day which commences all the end time events.

Lady Crosstalk · May 27, 2019

Many who are skeptical of the establishment of the Millennial Kingdom, say, "Why would God even put the Millennial Kingdom in place--especially with a return to Temple worship in Jerusalem. Jesus was the once-and-for-all sacrifice." I can think of reasons:

1) Israel was not only promised the restoration of their Kingdom through most of the OT prophets, but specifically in the Book of Ezekiel, that the Kingdom will extend to the borders that Israel never attained in the original Kingdom of King David and King Solomon. Even Jesus' disciples ask the Risen Lord about the restoration of the Kingdom in Acts 1:6. His answer was interesting. He didn't say that it was eliminated because of His rejection by the nation of Israel. He merely said that the Father established those dates and that, for now, they had much more pressing concerns in spreading the gospel. Prophecy would fail if the Kingdom is not ever restored.

2) God's perfect Creation fell in stages after the contagion of sin and death came as a result of Adam and Eve's disobedience. His restoration of perfection appears to be planned in stages as well. First, there will be the Millennial Kingdom when Satan will be bound as well as long healthy life of all of Creation returning. Before the Flood, humans lived very long lives, which declined rapidly after the Flood. When even the idyllic conditions of the Millennial Kingdom do not succeed in eliminating the resentment, egotism, ingratitude and rebelliousness of mankind, humans will finally understand that apart from God, we can do nothing [good]. No one will be able to say that God has not given mankind every chance to be obedient--even the fear of death (which Hebrews 2:15 cites as a captivity) will be greatly lessened. (We who are His in this age do not have the fear of death even though our lives are short.)

3) In the restoration of the Kingdom, God's perfect Law will be strictly observed and the sacrificial system is a part of the Law, as well as the strict observance of the Sabbath and the Festivals. In fact, the Gentile nations will be required to go to Jerusalem for the Feast of Tabernacles each year. If they do not, no rain will fall in their countries. (Zechariah 14:16). No one will be able to rightly say that God's Law is not just. Yet, rebellion appears to be deeply embedded in the hearts of mortal humans and the Millennial Kingdom will fail in a judgment of fire, followed by the creation of a new heaven and new earth where the New Jerusalem descends from heaven to sit for all eternity. And those who are His will live with Him and the Lamb forever.

farouk · May 27, 2019

Lady Crosstalk said:
Many who are skeptical of the establishment of the Millennial Kingdom, say, "Why would God even put the Millennial Kingdom in place--especially with a return to Temple worship in Jerusalem. Jesus was the once-and-for-all sacrifice." I can think of reasons:

1) Israel was not only promised the restoration of their Kingdom through most of the OT prophets, but specifically in the Book of Ezekiel, that the Kingdom will extend to the borders that Israel never attained in the original Kingdom of King David and King Solomon. Even Jesus' disciples ask the Risen Lord about the restoration of the Kingdom in Acts 1:6. His answer was interesting. He didn't say that it was eliminated because of His rejection by the nation of Israel. He merely said that the Father established those dates and that, for now, they had much more pressing concerns in spreading the gospel. Prophecy would fail if the Kingdom is not ever restored.

2) God's perfect Creation fell in stages after the contagion of sin and death came as a result of Adam and Eve's disobedience. His restoration of perfection appears to be planned in stages as well. First, there will be the Millennial Kingdom when Satan will be bound as well as long healthy life of all of Creation returning. Before the Flood, humans lived very long lives, which declined rapidly after the Flood. When even the idyllic conditions of the Millennial Kingdom do not succeed in eliminating the resentment, egotism, ingratitude and rebelliousness of mankind, humans will finally understand that apart from God, we can do nothing [good]. No one will be able to say that God has not given mankind every chance to be obedient--even the fear of death (which Hebrews 2:15 cites as a captivity) will be greatly lessened. (We who are His in this age do not have the fear of death even though our lives are short.)

3) In the restoration of the Kingdom, God's perfect Law will be strictly observed and the sacrificial system is a part of the Law, as well as the strict observance of the Sabbath and the Festivals. In fact, the Gentile nations will be required to go to Jerusalem for the Feast of Tabernacles each year. If they do not, no rain will fall in their countries. (Zechariah 14:16). No one will be able to rightly say that God's Law is not just. Yet, rebellion appears to be deeply embedded in the hearts of mortal humans and the Millennial Kingdom will fail in a judgment of fire, followed by the creation of a new heaven and new earth where the New Jerusalem descends from heaven to sit for all eternity. And those who are His will live with Him and the Lamb forever.

It's good sometimes to stop and consider whether passages of Scripture really refer to Israel or the church; and thus one's conclusions about the roles of each might be brought into sharper focus with regard to future events. So often, in discussion, the church and Israel are just lumped together, leading to misunderstandings.

Lady Crosstalk · May 27, 2019

farouk said:
It's good sometimes to stop and consider whether passages of Scripture really refer to Israel or the church; and thus one's conclusions about the roles of each might be brought into sharper focus with regard to future events. So often, in discussion, the church and Israel are just lumped together, leading to misunderstandings.

The Hebraic mind often looked at "salvation" from a physical point of view--the children of Israel were often saved from death by Yahweh. Thus, when Peter was walking on the water and faltered, he cried out, "Lord, save me!" he was seeking the saving of his mortal life. We tend to see it as a picture of a spiritual reality as well. Because the Kingdom that Christ established here at His first advent was spiritual, we Christians tend to think in only those terms. In reality, it is always spiritual as well as physical salvation (otherwise, what is resurrection about?).

farouk · May 27, 2019

Lady Crosstalk said:
The Hebraic mind often looked at "salvation" from a physical point of view--the children of Israel were often saved from death by Yahweh. Thus, when Peter was walking on the water and faltered, he cried out, "Lord, save me!" he was seeking the saving of his mortal life. We tend to see it as a picture of a spiritual reality as well. Because the Kingdom that Christ established here at His first advent was spiritual, we Christians tend to think in only those terms. In reality, it is always spiritual as well as physical salvation (otherwise, what is resurrection about?).

SOTERIA - salvation - in Greek can encompass the sense of deliverance in its difference aspects.

Davy · May 27, 2019

Copperhead said:
Still does not explain why Yeshua and the redeemed (Revelation 2:26-27) are having to rule with a rod of iron if everyone is redeemed and in their spiritual bodies.
....

That appears to be where you are misunderstanding, i.e., the idea of being 'redeemed' vs. the "spiritual body".

It is not our flesh body that is redeemed. It is our "spiritual body" that is linked to our flesh body by a "silver cord". Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 showed us that here on earth we have two main parts, our flesh and our spirit. It also showed that both of those are of a separate dimension, that the "silver cord" is what keeps them together while alive here on earth. But if that "silver cord" is severed, then our flesh goes back to the earth where it came from, and our spirit goes back to God Who gave it. In Matthew 10:28 Jesus showed that our soul is attached to that spirit.

The "spiritual body" of 1 Cor.15 is actually part of the "spirit" of Eccl.12 that goes back to God at flesh death. You already have that "spiritual body" inside your flesh body. When the "silver cord" is loosed, your "spiritual body" will simply leave your flesh, and you will manifest in the heavenly dimension, a different dimension than our earthly dimension.

In 1 Cor.15:54, Paul made a distinction for being redeemed by Christ. TWO different changes are required, not just one. One's flesh must be changed to the body of incorruption, which is the "spiritual body" of that chapter. And our mortal soul must put on immortality by Faith on Christ Jesus. The soul is still destined to perish until it believes on Jesus Christ as God's promised Saviour.

This is why there will be both a resurrection of the just, and of the unjust, like Jesus showed in John 5:28-29. The "resurrection of damnation" involves their having the resurrection body also, which Paul taught is the "spiritual body". But their mortal souls will still be subject to the "second death". Until they believe on Jesus unto eternal Life, they are still 'dead' in their soul, regardless of having the "spiritual body".

Davy · May 27, 2019

Copperhead said:
....
Ruling with a rod of iron implies having to rule harshly due to some folks getting out of line. And if they are redeemed and in their spiritual bodies, where does the group come from that Satan is able to foment a rebellion against the Lord when Satan is released per Revelation 20 and Psalms 2? Are you implying that the redeemed will rebel against the Lord? Or are the redeemed in their spiritual bodies able to still procreate and kick out little heathens that will rebel down the road?

Zechariah 14:16-19 reveals that there will still be some that are rebellious during Christ's future Millennial reign with that rod of iron. That coming thousand years reign isn't going to be pleasant for those. And we know per the end of Revelation 20 that many in that time will still refuse to believe on Him, and will instead choose rebellion, and serve Satan once he's loosed a final time. The rod of iron will be necessary, because Satan's servants, i.e., the "tares" of Matt.13, will bow the knee to Christ Jesus, but they won't like doing it. That is why the coming thousand years will be necessary, in order to do final pruning of those who don't want to be with The LORD in His eternal Kingdom of the new heavens and new earth. We, Christ's Church, don't want them in the new heavens and new earth either if they refuse to believe on Jesus and be saved. Like God said in Nahum 1:9, there won't be a rebellion the second time.

Davy · May 27, 2019

Keraz said:
Jesus will 'flatten' nothing when He Returns. He will destroy the worlds armies at Armageddon and chain up Satan, that's all. Revelation 19:11-21
His Day of fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal event is years before the Return. It will be that Day which commences all the end time events.

There is going to be a great earthquake in that area of Jerusalem on the day of Christ's coming. And like He said, there won't be one stone on top of another there when that happens...

Matt 24:2-3
2 And Jesus said unto them, "See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."
3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
KJV

The fact that His disciples understood He was speaking of the end of this world with His second coming, reveals just when that will occur...

Rev 11:13-15
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
KJV

FLATTEN THAT AREA, HE WILL, UM, HM (said like Yoda).

Earburner · May 28, 2019

Copperhead said:
Well, that seems strange. It is generally accepted that Revelation was written roughly 90AD. And there will be 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Jacob (Israel) set apart and sealed in the end time.

Who said that those "born again" Jews were FROM the land of Israel?
The words "twelve thousand, from each "tribe of Israel" , is symbolic of a remnant that shall believe and come to the Lord Jesus, in this Age of God's Grace.
And for those that do, they have become "new creatures [creation]", through Blood of Christ, and the Gift of God's Holy Spirit. Through that "new birth", there is no difference between Jew and Gentile.

The Coming Great Apostasy

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