"That Wicked" has problems!

Lady Crosstalk · May 28, 2019

Earburner said:
I have been seriously studying on four words in 2 Thes. 2:8-9, using both the KJV/Strong's and the Young's concordance: specifically the words "that Wicked", and "even him"
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I am not looking at any other bible versions, because they are translated from the Wescott & Hort Greek text- 1881. All of such translations purposely and specifically cause the reader to falsely learn that 2 Thes. 2:8 is in the singular, as being one man.
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In the 1611 KJV, it is very possible that a wrong word was used, being the word "that". If so, then in 1611, it could it have been done so, in order to give support to a popular false belief at that time, the Pope being antichrist.
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In the Textus Receptus Greek- 1512, ["the" wicked] is used and not ["that" wicked].
However, in the 1611- KJV, the opposite is expressed, being ["that" Wicked].
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Secondly, now that we may have a wrong word of "that" being used, I can see why the word "Wicked" is written with an upper case "W". It's done so as to force the reader to see it in the singular.
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At that time, during the Protestant Reformation period, it was commonly held by most Protestant churches, that the Pope was "the" Antichrist.
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However, if the word "the" was used, and the word "wicked" was without an upper case "W", then the entire context of 2 Thes. would be interpreted in perfect harmony, and in the plural.
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The word "Wicked" is found in the Strong's, but it is NOT found in the Young's concordance.
I have learned that when the Young's Concordance omits a word, it's because the word was purposely inserted by the translators of the KJV.
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Conclusion:
The correct word to be used in that scripture is "the" and not "that", and therefore a capital "w" for "wicked" would not have been used as being necessary.
When the upper case "W" is used, it denotes the singular. When it's not, the plural is relevant to the verse and the context.
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So now, having said that, let's read 2 Thes. 2:8 in a portion of the context, with the acceptable changes:
[ 7 ] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[ 8 ] And then shall [the wicked] be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[ 9 ] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[ 10 ] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[ 11 ] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
[ 12 ] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
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OK, we are not done yet. I have found that the words "Even him", are also suspect of being an insertion by the translators. Those words are not found in the Textus Receptus Greek text. Nor are they found in Young's concordance or the Strong's.
Those words are an insertion by the KJV translators also, being evident to give support to the erroneous words "that Wicked".

So, are we looking at a fabrication, or an oversight in translation?
Given the fact that the "Protestant Reformation" was in full swing, through Martin Luther, I can see how the translators might give support to such a "just cause". Departing from the RCC was no small matter.
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Since it is "open season" for insertions, then let it be this: "Even them".
At least, it will blend with the plural nature of the context, as well as the context of the KJV New Testament scriptures, specifically the book of 1 John.
So now, let's read it all, with all the acceptable insertions:
[ 7 ] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[ 8 ] And then shall [the wicked] be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[ 9 ] [Even them], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[ 10 ] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Now I have a question, is THIS the "strong delusion to believe a lie, that God will send"?
Is "that spirit of antichrist" singular or plural?
No doubt, the wording implies that it is to be read and understood IN THE PLURAL.
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If so many are reading that to be singular, as being one man, is that THE lie that many shall believe??

I looked up 2 Thes. 2 in the TR online and it capitalizes Wicked (it also says "that" Wicked). 2 Thessalonians 2 - Textus Receptus

Lady Crosstalk · May 28, 2019

Earburner said:
My point is between the two Greek Texts, two different schools of thought have been generated and have been dispersed among the Protestant churches.
For 400 years, the Protestant churches have all read and studied from the KJV. So now we are to accept the "dumbed down" versions?

As for the KJV, my question is WHY was 2 Thes. 2:8 translated into the singular, when the Textus Receptus Greek was clearly in the plural?

To me, it's as plain as day light. The translators wanted to substantiate that the Pope was "THE Antichrist, thereby supporting "a just cause" for the PR.
I must say, It's carried on very well, these past 400 years. But still not one iota of proof is available for PROVING that the Pope is "THE" AC, even though the W/H Greek "paints" a more colorful picture!
WHY?
Ans. There is no such thing as a singular, world leader called "THE" Antichrist. But, now that W/H have done such a fine job with their "paint by numbers" art work, you all are swallowing the "strong delusion" hook, line and sinker.

Then who or what is the "little horn" who speaks great blasphemies against God? Who or what is the being (?) who stands in the Temple of God and announces that "he" is God?

Earburner · May 28, 2019

Phoneman777 said:
I like the way you critically analyze the details. We all could benefit greatly from not only shaking the fruit tree, but also climbing up to look behind the leaves and branches.

However, ancient kings were also "carried" by their subjects - over whom they clearly were ruler. The idea of "carry" doesn't necessary denote subordination of that which is carried to the carrier.

But, considering that a "beast" is a kingdom (Daniel 7:23) and the last verse of Revelation 17 says the woman "reigneth over the kings of the Earth" - all kingdoms - the carried woman reigns over every beast kingdom, including the one upon which she sits.

OK, but back to my question that you skipped over. Wasn't Israel a "church", a woman?
Did not "SHE" fall?
Speaking of Ancient kings, Israel and Jerusalem have been around alot lon

Lady Crosstalk said:
I looked up 2 Thes. 2 in the TR online and it capitalizes Wicked (it also says "that" Wicked). 2 Thessalonians 2 - Textus Receptus

LCT,
When you go to search the meaning of "that Wicked" from the site you posted, there is "no text available" , which means the words were inserted by the translators.

Lady Crosstalk · May 28, 2019

Earburner said:
OK, but back to my question that you skipped over. Wasn't Israel a "church", a woman?
Did not "SHE" fall?
Speaking of Ancient kings, Israel and Jerusalem have been around alot lon

LCT,
When you go to search the meaning of "that Wicked" from the site you posted, there is "no text available" , which means the words were inserted by the translators.

Why would they do that? Wouldn't that offend everyone who regards the TR as the true Bible?

Earburner · May 28, 2019

Correction to Phoneman: ...alot longer than the Vatican!

Earburner · May 28, 2019

Earburner said:
Correction to Phoneman: ...alot longer than the Vatican!

That is a very good question. However, being now 400 years ago, and the TR was being translated into the 1611 KJV, in the middle of the Protestant Reformation, with Martin Luther leaving the RCC,
What better way to justify "a just cause", than to tweak a couple of words, to prove what most then did think. The Pope was "of that spirit of antichrist".
So why not just say that he is! And so they did!

Earburner · May 28, 2019

Correction: my recent post above is suppose to be to "LadyCrosstalk" and not "Phoneman".

Earburner · May 28, 2019

Lady Crosstalk said:
Then who or what is the "little horn" who speaks great blasphemies against God? Who or what is the being (?) who stands in the Temple of God and announces that "he" is God?

One must come to historical terms of Daniel and learn that history proves that the "little horn" in Daniel was OF THE 3rd Beast, and NOT the 4th beast.
His name was Antiochus Epiphanes of the Seleucid empire, one of the four horns that evolved out of the Grecian Empire of Alex the Great.
For further understanding of that time, in conjunction with the KJV-Daniel, one must study 1&2 Maccabees, the Jewish historical account of those times and the "AoD", which Jesus spoke of.

VictoryinJesus · May 28, 2019

Earburner said:
OK, but back to my question that you skipped over. Wasn't Israel a "church", a woman?
Did not "SHE" fall?
Speaking of Ancient kings, Israel and Jerusalem have been around alot lon

LCT,
When you go to search the meaning of "that Wicked" from the site you posted, there is "no text available" , which means the words were inserted by the translators.

Psalm 2:2-3
The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord , and against his anointed, saying , [3] Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

Job 3:14-15 With kings and counsellors of the earth, which built desolate places for themselves; [15] Or with princes that had gold, who filled their houses with silver:

Psalm 89:26-29
[26] He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. [27] Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. [28] My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him. [29] His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.

Revelation 17:2
With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Acts 4:26-28
The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. [27] For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, [28] For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Are we astonished that “another Jesus” “another spirit” has a head and a body of many members with different purposes, which is in agreement against Christ’s rule over them? Doesn’t God show us there is the mind of Christ ...or to follow after another voice or mind which is the spirit of the Antichrist speaking of gaining this world? keeping it (the world)under the rule of death and sin and the Antichrist? Consider the devil took the Son of God up and declared it was all within the devils power to give Jesus Christ all the glory of the world’s kingdom’s. Maybe the error is in saying the Son of God desired the glory of man’s many kingdoms and was waiting for it, but instead desired a different glory which is everlasting and given only of the Father. The Son of God could have turned stones into bread to eat to satisfy physical hunger but He never wanted the glory that comes from feeding yourself but instead fed many with stones turned into bread...His body broken. Consider also spiritual Kings ...who wait for glory; to be clothed with beauty from on High ...have we mistaken beauty from on High when glory has already been given in being clothed with the Fruits of the Spirit of God which have the power to heal? Do we wait to glow with brightness when Love displayed by the Son is the very thing that is the full expressed beauty of light? What do we wait for that He hasn’t already given?

There is a spirit of the world, false teachers, false apostles ...false light and a head with the same mind and likeness of the corruption of the world. Not the mind of Christ but seeks vain glory (depressing all the people) and is against Him. The LORD of peace lifts people and seeks the wealth of another.

Earburner · May 28, 2019

Lady Crosstalk said:
Who or what is the being (?) who stands in the Temple of God and announces that "he" is God?

First question: what is the Temple of God?
2nd question: who has become the Temple of God?
3rd question: where is the Temple of God.
Answers:
1. Our physical bodies.
2. All who are "born again of His Holy Spirit" .
3. The "body of Christ" is His people, of which is where God does dwell.
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4. Rom. 8:9 explains all of the above.

Earburner · May 28, 2019

Now the real question: who is "the natural man" , and how many will be found in that condition, when the Lord returns?
Ans. Many.
"All who have not the Spirit of Christ", ARE THE WICKED!

Lady Crosstalk · May 28, 2019

Earburner said:
One must come to historical terms of Daniel and learn that history proves that the "little horn" in Daniel was OF THE 3rd Beast, and NOT the 4th beast.
His name was Antiochus Epiphanes of the Seleucid empire, one of the four horns that evolved out of the Grecian Empire of Alex the Great.
For further understanding of that time, in conjunction with the KJV-Daniel, one must study 1&2 Maccabees, the Jewish historical account of those times and the "AoD", which Jesus spoke of.

I'm aware of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, but that was 400 years before the first advent of Christ and still doesn't resolve the problem of harmonizing Paul's assertion in 2 Thes. 2 that he, she, it, them will stand (future tense) in the Temple of God...

Taken · May 28, 2019

Wicked -
Knowing what Is;
Right/ Secularly
Right/ Righteously
Yet choosing to Do what is Wrong.

Evil -
Concocting, planning Deception with Intent to accomplish Deception / Corruption "AND"
Encouraging/Promoting others to do the Same "AND" contentment with others who Do the Same.

Glory to God,
Taken

Lady Crosstalk · May 28, 2019

Earburner said:
First question: what is the Temple of God?
2nd question: who has become the Temple of God?
3rd question: where is the Temple of God.
Answers:
1. Our physical bodies.
2. All who are "born again of His Holy Spirit" .
3. The "body of Christ" is His people, of which is where God does dwell.
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4. Rom. 8:9 explains all of the above.

1) The spiritual Temple of God is the Body of Christ. Yes. But, as of the time of that New Testament writing, (1 Corinthians was written ca. 56 A.D.) there was still a physical Temple standing in Jerusalem (it wasn't destroyed til 70 A.D.). It is unlikely that the Jewish Apostle Paul thought that the Body of Christ (i.e. the Church) was going to replace the Temple in Jerusalem. As a Hebrew scholar, he thoroughly knew the Tanakh and would have understood that there were unfulfilled prophecies concerning Israel. He undoubtedly assumed they would be fulfilled at some point in the future.

2) We are not the physical Temple of God, which must be rebuilt before the "man of sin" can desecrate it.

3) There is an actual Temple of God in heaven--the Apostle John saw it in his vision. (Revelation 11:19) It would be a quite awkward reading of this passage if we take it to mean the Body of Christ as we are given the detail of having it contain the Ark of the Covenant.

4) I am also aware of the Romans 8:9 passage warning that those without the indwelling Holy Spirit are not of Christ. But, Ezekiel assured the people that Israel would be restored--at first in unbelief. This has never occurred and, if it does not, much of OT prophecy would be overturned. Unthinkable. The Church HAS NOT replaced Israel. True Israel (that is an Israel which embraced their Messiah Yeshua) will survive the "time of Jacob's trouble" to repopulate the Kingdom of Israel under the King of Kings, Jesus, who will reign over not only Israel but all the kingdoms of the earth at that time.

Earburner · May 28, 2019

Lady Crosstalk said:
Then who or what is the "little horn" who speaks great blasphemies against God? Who or what is the being (?) who stands in the Temple of God and announces that "he" is God?[/QUO

Lady Crosstalk said:
I'm aware of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, but that was 400 years before the first advent of Christ and still doesn't resolve the problem of harmonizing Paul's assertion in 2 Thes. 2 that he, she, it, them will stand (future tense) in the Temple of God...

Every person who is not "born again of God's Holy Spirit", remains to be "the natural man", and continue to be the resident of their residence, which is their bodies, of which were made to be by God, the dwelling place FOR God. John 14:23.
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Without Christ within them, they remain to be "condemned already", because they are "none of His" John 3:18; Rom. 8:9.

Earburner · May 28, 2019

Lady Crosstalk said:
1) The spiritual Temple of God is the Body of Christ. Yes. But, as of the time of that New Testament writing, (1 Corinthians was written ca. 56 A.D.) there was still a physical Temple standing in Jerusalem (it wasn't destroyed til 70 A.D.). It is unlikely that the Jewish Apostle Paul thought that the Body of Christ (i.e. the Church) was going to replace the Temple in Jerusalem. As a Hebrew scholar, he thoroughly knew the Tanakh and would have understood that there were unfulfilled prophecies concerning Israel. He undoubtedly assumed they would be fulfilled at some point in the future.

2) We are not the physical Temple of God, which must be rebuilt before the "man of sin" can desecrate it.

3) There is an actual Temple of God in heaven--the Apostle John saw it in his vision. (Revelation 11:19) It would be a quite awkward reading of this passage if we take it to mean the Body of Christ as we are given the detail of having it contain the Ark of the Covenant.

4) I am also aware of the Romans 8:9 passage warning that those without the indwelling Holy Spirit are not of Christ. But, Ezekiel assured the people that Israel would be restored--at first in unbelief. This has never occurred and, if it does not, much of OT prophecy would be overturned. Unthinkable. The Church HAS NOT replaced Israel. True Israel (that is an Israel which embraced their Messiah Yeshua) will survive the "time of Jacob's trouble" to repopulate the Kingdom of Israel under the King of Kings, Jesus, who will reign over not only Israel but all the kingdoms of the earth at that time.

Under God's NEW Covenant, through the shed Blood of His Son, the "church" (called out ones), is not the Temple of God??

Earburner · May 28, 2019

LCT wrote:
4) I am also aware of the Romans 8:9 passage warning that those without the indwelling Holy Spirit are not of Christ. But, Ezekiel assured the people that Israel would be restored--at first in unbelief. This has never occurred and, if it does not, much of OT prophecy would be overturned. Unthinkable. The Church HAS NOT replaced Israel. True Israel (that is an Israel which embraced their Messiah Yeshua) will survive the "time of Jacob's trouble" to repopulate the Kingdom of Israel under the King of Kings, Jesus, who will reign over not only Israel but all the kingdoms of the earth at that time.
EBs Reply:
When Jesus told the Jews that the KoG shall be taken from you, and given to another, all the OT Prophecies that God spoke for them, CAME TO an end, being made void and of no account.
They NOW must come to Jesus AND ABIDE UNDER the doctrines and principals of the NEW Covenant!
If they don't, individually or as a people, THEY ARE "NONE of His" . Rom. 8:9.

Lady Crosstalk · May 28, 2019

Earburner said:
Under God's NEW Covenant, through the shed Blood of His Son, the "church" (called out ones), is not the Temple of God??

If you will note--in the first point I made, I said that the Church is the spiritual Temple of God, not the physical Temple of God (which was still standing at the time when Paul wrote those words in 1 Corinthians. Remember, Jesus said that His was a spiritual kingdom during His first visitation. At His second visitation, He will rule over both the spiritual kingdom that is the Church AND over the physical kingdom of Israel (which will contain a real physical Temple).

Lady Crosstalk · May 28, 2019

Earburner said:
When Jesus told the Jews that the KoG shall be taken from you, and given to another, all the OT Prophecies that God spoke for them, CAME TO an end, being made void and of no account.

No. God still has a plan for Israel. See Romans 11

They NOW must come to Jesus AND ABIDE UNDER the doctrines and principals of the NEW Covenant!

They will--see Zechariah from the tenth chapter on. In the Millennial Kingdom, they will abide by the Old Covenant as well as the New Covenant.

If they don't, individually or as a people, THEY ARE "NONE of His" . Rom. 8:9.

Yes. True.

Earburner · May 28, 2019

Lady Crosstalk said:
I'm aware of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, but that was 400 years before the first advent of Christ and still doesn't resolve the problem of harmonizing Paul's assertion in 2 Thes. 2 that he, she, it, them will stand (future tense) in the Temple of God...

Do you understand Isa. 55:8-9?
Let's see!
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In the days of Antiochus Epiphanes and Judas Maccabeus, the mind of God was then about the temple of God being desecrated and then cleansed/restored.

Now, with the mind of God (the mind of Christ), understand what John 2 is saying:
[19] Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
[20] Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
[21] But he spake of the temple of his body.

>Which Temple was Jesus talking about, that was going to be destroyed/desecrated and then restored?

"That Wicked" has problems!

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