Logical and Dialectical Reasoning in Scripture

bbyrd009 · Jun 3, 2019

amadeus said:
You are certainly on the right track again here my friend. Communion as practiced in churches where a bit or bread or cracker is consumed along with wine or grape juice may be OK, but when the partaker fails to really partake of the Word and the Holy Spirit, that natural communion stuff is a wasted effort... at least as I see it.

well i guess pagans didnt think so for a long time, and they actually drank blood, just like our more ortho "brothers and sisters" ("family," enemies iow) like to imagine they are? But i wouldnt discount its importance for us even today, as a...um, a contrast to the real thing, if/when it is found?

amadeus said:
Oh yeah, it's closed and locked fast. This is hard for as I really loved those people.

well, so maybe there you go as a silent witness, and to fellowship with friends without expecting to impart or receive any "knowledge" per se, so what maybe right? Nothing wrong with a "Love Feast" i dont think?

farouk · Jun 3, 2019

Heart2Soul said:
God never intended for a pastor to be the boss....they are to tend to the sheep, nurture them as they grow, raise up disciples who are equipped with the knowledge of His Word.
You are that kind of pastor.
I didn't know there was a difference between preachers and pastors.

I do like the phrase in 3 John8: "fellowhelpers to the truth".

Helen · Jun 3, 2019

amadeus said:
A preacher or a teacher perhaps, but not a pastor... at least not like any pastor I have ever known. All of the ones I've known have been the boss, and a pastor should never in that sense be a boss. I could be a pastor according to the scripture if God were to point me that way, but not like a boss man. A real pastor really must be a minister which is a servant and he must really care for the sheep. My old pastor always loved his sheep, but after more than 30 years in this place see what they have done to him. Some have loved him, but the powers that be have brushed them aside to get their own way.

A tired old widower he is with no natural children and now removed from his flock, but NOT by God. Left alone now in this town but for my wife and I and one other family. If it were not for the many who love him in hundreds other places including the home of one family in Israel...?

His situation reminds me of the following verse:

"But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house" Mark 6:4

My old pastor will be 94 next month, but he no longer has anything here as a pastor. They took that away from him and since I left when he did 7 months ago, the present powers that be would not even want me in attendance unless I were willing to move in their direction. For me that would be purposely walking toward the very devil. It would be effectively choosing mammon instead of God and I could not do that. There are now three people who would block me if I were to try to return, but unless God really directed that way I will not. I will wait now carefully on the Lord. I will also see what our friend @bbyrd009 has to say.

"But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint." Isaiah 40:31

I'm so sad John...

And how hard for Daniel to see his life's work turn to ashes.
I agree with Mark. It sounds like they have made their choice. They want another king, any king but God.

We have seen this patten over and over throughout our 50+ years.
A dear Pastor friend of ours came home from a holiday "the church" sent him on ..to find another "pastor" installed in his pulpit and in his house ( church owned) and his furniture on the lawn ... It happens for too much, same stories, different situations.

A pastor must also smell like a sheep, he touches the sheep to tend them, he 'sleeps in the door of the sheepfold' to keep them safe.
I wouldn't wish to see you even try John, it would break your pastor-heart.
The group would always be split.

Dave and I left a thriving group of 78 people when we came to Canada..."in the safe hands" of two great preachers.
Sadly that is what they were...they were NOT shepherds . In a year the number had halved...three years later only 7 remained.

Thankfully the ones who left kept contact over the years...God found them good 'homes'. One young lad of 15 that we led to the Lord back then , now has a very huge church in Australia. Not my kind of church, much noise and not what I call worship. He is now on the way to 60 years old haha!!

God WILL take care of His sheep John , even if they stay there or move on to new 'homes'.

Praying with you brother. It is time for dear old Daniel to "go Home". ✟

farouk · Jun 3, 2019

Heart2Soul said:
Ever consider that God has kept you at this church to fill the pastors shoes when he dies?

Interesting question...

bbyrd009 · Jun 3, 2019

"ByGrace" said:
And how hard for Daniel to see his life's work turn to ashes.

Ha, from our pov maybe, but Satan does not attack strongholds that are already his right. So where we see defeat, a victory will come from that i bet?

amadeus · Jun 3, 2019

bbyrd009 said:
not to diminish your frame there, but to me Nehushtan signifies the desire for a Savior that we can look up and see with Two Eyes that will alleviate our suffering from our self-imposed snakes, or iow the desire to homo up (which i could demo from the text in the Snake on a Pole incident) and bow and scrape to an idol and call that worship.

"Group" complaining and prayers of petition will be in evidence, "we want ____ and we're all in agreement ('just like the Bible says,')" (Santa Claus may as well be hovering on the verge) there'll be lots of commending each other to ourselves mixed in with complaining, which i can demo either from here onsite or in the text also

While your take on Nehushtan is certainly correct, perhaps may be seen more clearly in that sense than what I described. But... consider also that the written Bible may indeed be quite similar to the brazen serpent. When those dead words are digested by a person with the Holy Spirit as directed those same words may be quickened providing healing... physical and/or spiritual. This then is the Word of God rather than the dead words that unbelievers or doubters read.

Other people will simply stand behind the Bible calling that dead book God's Word without the Holy Spirit quickening the words. We can look to a Bible or to a small statuette of Jesus on a small cross in the same way that people looked to Nehushtan when Hezekiah had it destroyed as an powerless idol. Where is the power of God? Where is the lack thereof?

"For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away." II Tim 3:2-5

amadeus · Jun 3, 2019

bbyrd009 said:
Sounds Mennonite, and i have no doubt that you would be being called to speak after about a week in one..."city" Mennonite I mean, great one in Glenwood Springs, CO! Come on by!

Off my beaten path from Oklahoma these days, but then again, who knows? I've never been to a Mennonite meeting. Unfortunately a person cannot tell much about how people by reading the name on the door or on top of the building. We do need to led by God and sometimes He uses people as Messengers/Angels.

I'm...not in love with the software here, but it is comprehensive, and you can eventually find the right buttons lol. But again If You Build It They will Come via search anyway

Ya, tbh as good an actual "pastor" you would be imo, your preaching would not comport well with most believers, unless you were to basically crawl and be prepared for a long slog. However here you have a virtually limitless audience, that will even outlive you.

We are still in our toddler pants basically on the net, but i see a day when ones life will be memorialized by their online presence. Well or demonized i guess too

You are telling me things that years ago had already crossed my mind, but sometimes we need to be reminded again. Thanks for the reminders.

amadeus · Jun 3, 2019

bbyrd009 said:
well i guess pagans didnt think so for a long time, and they actually drank blood, just like our more ortho "brothers and sisters" ("family," enemies iow) like to imagine they are? But i wouldnt discount its importance for us even today, as a...um, a contrast to the real thing, if/when it is found?

I do not routinely discount communion as people practice it in church settings, but how important can the shadow be when we fail to access the real thing which is available? It reminds me of that blind lady who was able to recognize friends and family by the silhouettes she was able to see. She saw as much as she could, which was good, but if she could have seen more, would she or should she have closed her eyes?

well, so maybe there you go as a silent witness, and to fellowship with friends without expecting to impart or receive any "knowledge" per se, so what maybe right? Nothing wrong with a "Love Feast" i dont think?

Twice a week I go to coffee gathering of old retired people like myself where we talk about things and sometimes play card games. We don't routinely get into discussions about God but it does happen on occasion and not usually at my instigation. Another thing that occurs to me is that when we have a regular potluck dinner with this same group of people they expect me to stand and lead prayer before we eat. I never pressed myself into that job, but somehow it is mine. God, I guess, was in that... 'Love feast', hmmm? That blind lady belonged to the same group until she ran out of time...

Berserk · Jun 3, 2019

One of the most crucial but difficult issue here is the meaning and function of Paul's mystical language (e. g. his "being in Christ mysticism"), which of course is somewhat shaped by cultural precedent.--language that pioneering scholar, Albert Schweitzer tries to describe in his seminal book on Paul's mysticism.

For Paul, the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit involves an experience of divine power that is publicly demonstrated and is not reducible to the wisdom of human analysis (1 Cor 2:4-5). The Spirit's initial work is also associated with the experience of "miracles" (Gal. 3:3, 5), but the limits of what Paul envisages by the term "miracles" is unclear. Does Paul have in mind the speaking in tongues that is part of the pattern for the initial reception of the Spirit in the Book of Acts? What is clear is this: Paul's concepts of walking in the Spirit and being led by the Spirit (e. g. Gal. 5:16-25) can be reduced to neither ethical conduct nor mere doctrine about what is simply a dry matter of faith.

The sense in which my ego is for Paul replaced by Christ's ego, again, is experiential language, which is hard to express in words:
"I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me (Gal. 2:19-20)."
Similarly, the sense in which I an "a new creation" in Christ is crucially, but elusively experiential:
"If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation: everything old has passed away; everything has become new (2 Cor. 5:17)."
The sense in which "everything old has passed away" has a mystical component that involves a new way of perceiving life and is experiential aspect shaped by cultural expectations that are very hard to express in words. This experiential element is not a once-for-all phenomenon, but rather reaquires daily experiential renewal:
"Even though our outer man is perishing, our inner man is being made new day by day (2 Cor. 5:16)."

In my view, these insights not only warn against efforts to reduce Paul's concepts to a fixed theological system of doctrine, but point to 1 Cor. 4:19-20 as one of the most important neglected keys to basic Christian experience:
"I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills, and I will find out not the [God] talk of these arrogant people, but their power. For the kingdom of God depends not on [God] talk but on power."

Heart2Soul · Jun 3, 2019

Berserk said:
One of the most crucial but difficult issue here is the meaning and function of Paul's mystical language (e. g. his "being in Christ mysticism"), which of course is somewhat shaped by cultural precedent.--language that pioneering scholar, Albert Schweitzer tries to describe in his seminal book on Paul's mysticism.

For Paul, the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit involves an experience of divine power that is publicly demonstrated and is not reducible to the wisdom of human analysis (1 Cor 2:4-5). The Spirit's initial work is also associated with the experience of "miracles" (Gal. 3:3, 5), but the limits of what Paul envisages by the term "miracles" is unclear. Does Paul have in mind the speaking in tongues that is part of the pattern for the initial reception of the Spirit in the Book of Acts? What is clear is this: Paul's concepts of walking in the Spirit and being led by the Spirit (e. g. Gal. 5:16-25) can be reduced to neither ethical conduct nor mere doctrine about what is simply a dry matter of faith.

The sense in which my ego is for Paul replaced by Christ's ego, again, is experiential language, which is hard to express in words:
"I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me (Gal. 2:19-20)."
Similarly, the sense in which I an "a new creation" in Christ is crucially, but elusively experiential:
"If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation: everything old has passed away; everything has become new (2 Cor. 5:17)."
The sense in which "everything old has passed away" has a mystical component that involves a new way of perceiving life and is experiential aspect shaped by cultural expectations that are very hard to express in words. This experiential element is not a once-for-all phenomenon, but rather reaquires daily experiential renewal:
"Even though our outer man is perishing, our inner man is being made new day by day (2 Cor. 5:16)."

In my view, these insights not only warn against efforts to reduce Paul's concepts to a fixed theological system of doctrine, but point to 1 Cor. 4:19-20 as one of the most important neglected keys to basic Christian experience:
"I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills, and I will find out not the [God] talk of these arrogant people, but their power. For the kingdom of God depends not on [God] talk but on power."

Paul's wisdom in the spiritual vs physical is one reason why I love studying his teachings. I believe his wisdom exceeds Solomon's concerning the spiritual matters.

Berserk · Jun 3, 2019

I agree. One simple insight from Galatians 5 is that no believer can experience the 9 "fruit of the Spirit" until she regularly experiences walking in the Spirit and being led by the Spirit.

amadeus · Jun 3, 2019

"ByGrace" said:
I'm so sad John...
And how hard for Daniel to see his life's work turn to ashes.
I agree with Mark. It sounds like they have made their choice. They want another king, any king but God.

Yes, it is closing in on him now. When his wife died in 2012 my wife and I were certain it would not be long, but God had some things for him to go through... There was an inkling of the situation before she passed on, but while she lived she was always working behind the scenes for God and for her husband to keep it together. Alone the wolves that had hidden themselves somewhat began to come more out into the open. How anyone professing to be a follower of Christ could do what they did is hard to understand but it really happened.

I still visit with Daniel [Brother S... always for me] every Wednesday unless he is out of town and he sometime visits me in my home more often than that. He says I am his only friend, but that is only true with the local folks. He has many friends who are constantly wanting him to come and visit their homes and churches all over the United States as well as in other countries... He does go more than any young man I know, but there is not enough time for him to visit them all as he would like.

There are also a dozen or so congregations who seriously want him to come to them to live out what remains of his life with them [Ohio, Missouri, Alabama, Texas, Arizona, Oregon, Washington state are some of the locations.] They would care for his physical needs and see to it that he stopped driving his car alone all over the country. I have talked with him about it many times, but he refuses to leave his home and his wife. [She is buried in a cemetery a few miles away.] But... sometimes the pain (not physical pain) is visible to me on his face when he talks about what has happened here.

We have seen this patten over and over throughout our 50+ years.
A dear Pastor friend of ours came home from a holiday "the church" sent him on ..to find another "pastor"

installed in his pulpit and in his house ( church owned) and his furniture on the lawn ... It happens for too much, same stories, different situations.

Just the thought of such a thing is painful to contemplate. How well can people who do such things know Jesus?
Daniel is fortunate that the mobile home did belong to him. After his wife died he transferred title to that home to the church to avoid legal problems in the event of his death, but he retained a legal right to live in it for as long as he lived. If it were not for that I wonder if he might not have received similar treatment.

A pastor must also smell like a sheep, he touches the sheep to tend them, he 'sleeps in the door of the sheepfold' to keep them safe.
I wouldn't wish to see you even try John, it would break your pastor-heart.
The group would always be split.

No, Helen, I cannot see me going back to that congregation at all much less in such a capacity. There are two beautiful [spiritually] sisters there each about 96 this year who I miss terribly, but they are both widows and pretty much bound to that church due to their own frailties, etc.

My wife supports me a lot but she would oppose any move on my part to return to that assembly. She knows me as well as the troubles of that place.

Dave and I left a thriving group of 78 people when we came to Canada..."in the safe hands" of two great preachers.
Sadly that is what they were...they were NOT shepherds . In a year the number had halved...three years later only 7 remained.

Thankfully the ones who left kept contact over the years...God found them good 'homes'. One young lad of 15 that we led to the Lord back then , now has a very huge church in

Australia. Not my kind of church, much noise and not what I call worship. He is now on the way to 60 years old haha!!

Well the memories are good but you cannot fix something like that. God is the One... if there is to be any:

"Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain" Psalm 127:1

God WILL take care of His sheep John , even if they stay there or move on to new 'homes'.

Praying with you brother. It is time for dear old Daniel to "go Home". ✟

I keep on praying for him, Helen, as he really wears me out at times and I am only 75 LOL. I do really expect him to leave us before the end of the year, but I have been wrong before...

stunnedbygrace · Jun 3, 2019

bbyrd009 said:
"Well, again, looks to me like you are trying to overcomplicate things. When the Bible says it is an abomination for a man to lie with another man as with a woman....well, I just don't see much symbolism."

we can also read of "prophets gone a'whoring" in Scripture, i highly doubt that the prophets were actually going to sex whores, personally. Even if i agree that a literal interp there can also be intended. Sometimes a thing is just a thing, too, sure. I forget the exact quote lol

Is the quote you are looking for the one sometimes attributed to Freud? Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar?

bbyrd009 · Jun 3, 2019

Berserk said:
In my view, these insights not only warn against efforts to reduce Paul's concepts to a fixed theological system of doctrine

did i miss a tag from you? dim pc, sorry if i did. Anyway, reading the Bible in the Naive dialectic is strictly like a Step 1 here, the puzzles actually reveal themselves more in that dialogue, but still need to be interpreted i guess. Step 2 i'm pretty deep into somewhere else, might migrate it here someday

ah, i had asked you what the argument or something was from your pov?

Berserk said:
The whole premise of the OP's argument is too simplistic

ah, here; what "argument," again? ty

stunnedbygrace · Jun 3, 2019

bbyrd009 said:
A Brief Lesson in Exploitation

We may not know exactly what goes on in the mind of a sheep when it’s being herded, but we can safely assume that it is not a strenuous process of independent thinking.

Robert Cialdini, the famed professor of psychology at Arizona State University and bestselling author of books on persuasion, draws a fascinating connection between the process of herding animals and the process of exploiting humans using social proof.

"As slaughterhouse operators have long known, the mentality of a herd makes it easy to manage. Simply get some members moving in the desired direction and the others - responding not so much to the lead animal as to those immediately surrounding them - will peacefully and mechanically go along."

"A forceful leader can reasonably expect to persuade some sizable proportion of group members. Then the raw information that a substantial number of group members has been convinced can, by itself, convince the rest. Thus the most influential leaders are those who know how to arrange group conditions to allow the principle of social proof to work maximally in their favor."

"For the exploiters, whose interest will be served by an unthinking, mechanical reaction to their requests, our tendency for automatic consistency is a gold mine."

This might give you some pause the next time you nonchalantly engage in social norms...they aren't all what they seem.
Todd William
Provocative Ideas

the more relevant hits are embedded in the text though. Or rather not embedded, must be manually...whatever

I remember the first time I refused a social norm, lol. I didn't reject it just to be a rebel either. I rejected it because I tried it twice and it caused me to bleed. To this day, I eat both my salad and my meat with the short fork.

stunnedbygrace · Jun 3, 2019

bbyrd009 said:
The Power of Myth is great for this, has changed many ppls lives i guess. Sounds like your fam already tho
Joseph Campbell And The Power Of Myth : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

wow, starts right away, no bs

Dang, link gone.

bbyrd009 · Jun 3, 2019

See that there is no argument--was not one presented--except for Western believers, who argue with posts as a rule generally speaking. Chinese believers embrace this with a vengeance, ok.

bbyrd009 · Jun 3, 2019

stunnedbygrace said:
Dang, link gone.

? from internet archive? hmm. wouldnt be too hard to find on YT, etc though.

bbyrd009 · Jun 3, 2019

stunnedbygrace said:
Dang, link gone.

Watch Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth Series Free

Berserk · Jun 3, 2019

While I was a young Harvard doctoral student, specializing in New Testament, I made some comment in a seminar about my view of how a particular verse might fit into a new view of Paul's "systematic theology." I am still haunted (if also a tad confused!) by Prof. Georgi's wry response. He cryptically replied, "Mr. ___, you must remember that Paul probably wrote this hastily in the corner of a small 1-room house full of the smell of garlic!" We need to remember that Paul was not aware that he was writing New Testament Scripture that would be read in churches of alien cultures for 2,000 years. Rather, he was writing letters to particular churches with pastoral problems and heresies of which we are only dimly aware, but which Paul viewed as crises threatening the survival of newbie churches with no written Gospels and a very limited grasp of Old Testament spirituality and teaching. His letters are problem-oriented for the present moment, not oriented to a preconceived systematic theology for future seminarians.

Logical and Dialectical Reasoning in Scripture

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