Two particular problems with dispensationalism...

Davy · Jun 1, 2019

Copperhead said:
So then, were Isaiah and King David both pulling our leg along with Yeshua?

And Hosea says that Yeshua would return to His place because of the rejection by Jacob (Israel). And would not return until they acknowledge that offense and turn to Him. Along with that, Enoch said that He comes with 10 thousands of His saints.

So it would seem that saints (only redeemed people are considered saints) do at some point, for some period of time, live with Yeshua where He is with the Father. At least till He returns to set up shop here on earth then we continue to live with Him where He is, which is on earth.

My wife may consider me a confused individual, but I do know what these guys wrote to tell us about these things and I don't see them as fallacies, but instead count on Yeshua to honor what was said.

What's kind of funny is that, neither one of you actually understand the connection of 'heaven' with the future gathering of the Church. God and His angels are not living on some far away galaxy on another planet.

Davy · Jun 1, 2019

Copperhead said:
And you err. the first verse does not talk about Judah being gathered back to the land. It says a song will be sung in the land of Judah.

The next verse talks about the gates being opened and the righteous nation entering in. In Hebrew eschatology that speaks of the gates of heaven and the redeemed entering in. And it has its fulfillment on a feast day. And that happens in "that day" of verse 1, which is a reference to "Day of the Lord" throughout scripture.

Just like in verse 17, the birth pains which are referenced throughout scripture as the Day of the Lord.

Then verses 19-21 which are a illusion to the removal of the righteous and mirrors the description given by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4 and is affirmed by Yeshua in John 14.

Isaiah 26 in its entirety speaks of "that day" and is quite clear that the righteous nation will enter into thru the gates and that is detailed in those final verses. Judah or Israel or both combined is not a righteous nation, it is a holy or set apart nation. Only the redeemed in Yeshua are considered righteous and a royal nation per Peter. No, I am pretty sure I have not been wrongly taught.

Got to remove those 'drunken in the night' glasses man...

Isa 26:1-2
26:1 In that day shall this song be sung in the land of Judah; We have a strong city; salvation will God appoint for walls and bulwarks.
2 Open ye the gates, that the righteous nation which keepeth the truth may enter in.
KJV

Copperhead · Jun 1, 2019

Davy said:
Got to remove those 'drunken in the night' glasses man...

Isa 26:1-2
26:1 In that day shall this song be sung in the land of Judah; We have a strong city; salvation will God appoint for walls and bulwarks.
2 Open ye the gates, that the righteous nation which keepeth the truth may enter in.
KJV

If you choose to think I am wearing "drunken in the night" glasses, I am cool with that. it would take a lot more than you have to intimidate me. No one has truly been able to do that since I did my time in the Army during the Viet Nam adventure. Words from someone on a forum doesn't even rate a blip on the radar.

I am more than certain in whom I have placed my trust.

Copperhead · Jun 1, 2019

Davy said:
What's kind of funny is that, neither one of you actually understand the connection of 'heaven' with the future gathering of the Church. God and His angels are not living on some far away galaxy on another planet.

Thanks for that researched expositional response. I think we have more of a bead on who and what you are.

Keraz · Jun 1, 2019

Copperhead said:
No, I do have a choice and I made it....

John 5:24 (NKJV) Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

The only judgment I have to face is the bema judgment of rewards not the krino prosecutorial judgment of the GWT where the key condemnation is about not being written in the book of life.

Of course you couldn't continue your quote to John 5:25, as that proves it is only when the dead hear His voice, that they will come to life. Daniel 12:1-3 and Revelation 20:11-15 prove this only happens at the GWT after the Millennium.

The Bema Judgment of Matthew 25:3-33 is just of the nations, not individuals.

We don't come into Judgment at the GWT because out names are Written in the Book of Life.

Copperhead · Jun 1, 2019

Keraz said:
Of course you couldn't continue your quote to John 5:25, as that proves it is only when the dead hear His voice, that they will come to life. Daniel 12:1-3 and Revelation 20:11-15 prove this only happens at the GWT after the Millennium.

The Bema Judgment of Matthew 25:3-33 is just of the nations, not individuals.

We don't come into Judgment at the GWT because out names are Written in the Book of Life.

I was referring to the bema mentioned by Paul in 2 Corinthians 5, not Matthew, since Matthew 24-25 have the Hebrew people primarily in view. The only mention of the bema in Matthew is in chapter 27. No mention of the bema in chapter 25. Break out your Greek Interlinear or concordance.

Yes, the dead that were not part of the resurrection of the righteous, per Paul and Isaiah, do indeed have to deal with the GWT. There is not a single mention anywhere that those who are the redeemed from Shavuot onward face the GWT judgment, which is a krino or prosecutorial judgment.

Regarding John 5:25, the could very well have been Yeshua's reference to the future resurrected saints of Matthew 27, which many early writers said Yeshua took to the Father as the first fruits of the harvest of the redeemed in keeping with Leviticus 23.

And the reference in Daniel 12 ties into Jeremiah 30. Redeemed of Yeshua not in view. And yet again, the birth pains are almost always tied to the tribulation period. And along with those pains, Isaiah 66 ties that into Zion bringing forth a nation at the start of that period. Zion did not give birth to the modern state of Israel. Israel did not get control of Zion till 1967. But the church was conceived by the HS on Shavuot at Zion (Jerusalem). Tie that with a nation (1 Peter 2:9) being brought forth at the start of the birth pains, ties that with Isaiah 26 and even King David in Psalms 27 stating that in the Time of Trouble (see Jeremiah 30 again), He will hide us in the house of His tabernacle. All of which ties with Isaiah 26 and John 14.

What a beautiful tapestry the Lord has weaved! A mosaic that only the Holy One of Eternity could have conceived. And all He ever asked was for his creatures to trust and love Him. Just like Abraham, we believe the Lord and it is accounted to us as righteousness.

Episkopos · Jun 1, 2019

Keraz said:
The Bema Judgment of Matthew 25:3-33 is just of the nations, not individuals.

This is the GWT...not the Bema. The nations are judged 1,000 years after the Bema.

Keraz · Jun 2, 2019

Episkopos said:
This is the GWT...not the Bema. The nations are judged 1,000 years after the Bema.

Revelation 20:11-15 is indisputable; everyone must and will stand before God at the GWT.
Thinking that some will avoid that, is not scriptural and causes a Biblical anomaly.
Believing 2 Corinthians 5:10 to be an earlier Judgment is wrong. Paul does not say there are two Judgments to come.

Copperhead · Jun 2, 2019

Keraz said:
Revelation 20:11-15 is indisputable; everyone must and will stand before God at the GWT.
Thinking that some will avoid that, is not scriptural and causes a Biblical anomaly.
Believing 2 Corinthians 5:10 to be an earlier Judgment is wrong. Paul does not say there are two Judgments to come.

I really love how you word stuff. There is always a little hint of a dig or cut at alternative positions.

"Thinking some will avoid it"

I am not sure that those who hold that the redeemed are not part of the GWT see it as "avoiding" it, but simply not in attendance except maybe as observers. But I can see how anyone who doesn't hold that the redeemed are separated at some point (pre, mid, post), and that there is no such thing as a millennial kingdom where the redeemed rule with Yeshua, etc could see that everyone has to stand before the Lord at the GWT which according to John is after the 1000 years of Satan's lockup and the reign of Messiah.

If the redeemed do reign with Messiah during the Millennial kingdom as per Revelation 2, that puts them in what one could call a "unique" category. They already have been redeemed to eternal life and reign with Yeshua, what would be the point of going thru the GWT judgment? It would all be redundant and essentially a waste of time.

Help me get this straight....The person was redeemed enough to reign along side Yeshua with a rod of Iron which is given those who overcome (Revelation 2:26-27), yet they didn't overcome enough that they still need to be evaluated at the GWT judgment? So just to be on the safe side, the Lord is going to parade that same individual who has overcome and is reigning with Yeshua in front of the GWT to re-evaluate them again so that no one "slips thru the cracks". Sounds more like the methodology of civil government than the Lord. What a depressing thought right there, that being with the Lord is no better than dealing with government.

That thought really makes the scripture saying "comfort one another with these words" take on a whole new meaning.

I guess I just have a higher view of the Lord and the way He has things laid out so that I think that the prosecutorial judgment of the GWT is only for those who have not been previously categorized as redeemed. Silly me to think the Lord was more organized than the government. Now I understand why some folks abuse drugs.

Keraz · Jun 2, 2019

Copperhead said:
If the redeemed do reign with Messiah during the Millennial kingdom as per Revelation 2, that puts them in what one could call a "unique" category. They already have been redeemed to eternal life and reign with Yeshua, what would be the point of going thru the GWT judgment? It would all be redundant and essentially a waste of time.

You not only lack understanding, you make abusive remarks to those who believe what the Bible actually says. When Revelation 20:12 says 'everyone', that is who will stand before God at the GWT.
What you fail to mention is how it is only then that the Book of Life will be opened, so those whose names are found Written in it are automatically Redeemed and receive Eternal life. Even Daniel 12:13, has to stand before God at the end of days.

It is, of course, your false idea of a 'rapture to heaven' that necessitates a change from flesh body to spiritual, that makes you think that immortality can come before the GWT. This idea is never stated anywhere in the Bible and is quite illogical.

Copperhead · Jun 2, 2019

Keraz said:
You not only lack understanding, you make abusive remarks to those who believe what the Bible actually says

I do agree with you, I do not understand how you arrive at some of the conclusions you promote. But as for abusive remarks, you are way out of line. You must prove that or apologize if you want credibility. I may have used a little levity periodically in describing the issue, but I leveled no abusive remarks towards anyone.

The only thing that could remotely be constued as abusive is when I stated how I love how you word stuff. That you always manage to word it in such a way that there is that little hint of a dig in them. And you did it yet again in the post I am responding to with this post with this.....

Keraz said:
your false idea of a 'rapture to heaven'

That is a veiled dig of the spur if there ever was one by stating it being false and emphasizing that with quotation marks.

That can easily be perceived as a insult or the dig at anyone how might hold that view. It is automatically a false idea because you say it is, as if you are the all knowing apostle of our day that we better take heed of or face condemnation.

In actuality, you have leveled a myriad of insults claiming false ideas, myths, etc at those who disagree with your position. You chide other folks' reasoning on these issues constantly insinuating they have poor reasoning skills, lack understanding, etc. The impression you give is that you are up on a higher plane of revelation and anyone who doesn't see it your way is just an uneducated peasant. As if only you have been gifted by Yahweh with the understanding to interpret the word in this present age. Well, no sale. It is just arrogance on display.

Will wait for that apology.

Keraz · Jun 3, 2019

Copperhead said:
Will wait for that apology.

I will never be sorry for promoting Biblical truths.
It was your [un]veiled reference to drugs that I saw as abuse.

I call out any theory, doctrine or fanciful notion that does not have genuine scriptural support.
You want some, including yourself, I presume; to gain immortality before God and Jesus sit in Judgment of all mankind, after the Millennium.
This idea conflicts with what is plainly told to us in Revelation 20:11-15 and Revelation 21:1-7

Another idea that fails to have scriptural proof, is the 'rapture to heaven' of the Church before the Tribulation. I put that idea into brackets because it conflicts with the Words of Jesus.

Pointing out truths like these is not arrogance, just correcting false beliefs. Which excites a very negative reaction with those whose long held beliefs are challenged.
However; I am used to that, as I am physically unharmed, whereas the ancient prophets were mostly killed for their prophesies.
But as Ezekiel 33:1-9 says; I have given out the truth and the warning of what will happen, so I am in the clear.

Copperhead · Jun 3, 2019

Keraz said:
I will never be sorry for promoting Biblical truths.
It was your [un]veiled reference to drugs that I saw as abuse.

It wasn't about bible truth I expected and apology for. But not surprised you deflected things.

Regarding drugs, the only place I can recall in the last week or more in even suggestion such a thing was a response I gave when it was stated God can do anything in a vision He was giving to John in the Revelation. In response to that, I stated that the revelation had been given to Yeshua by the Father, from Yeshua to an angel, from the Angel to John. There was no vision, out of body experience, drug trip, or anything else.

Now for someone like you to try and make that seem like an attack or abuse of a poster, you are way out of line.

Apology? Never expected it. But I know who and what you are more clearly now. And it certainly is not the level of a prophet.

Naomi25 · Jun 3, 2019

charity said:
Two Particular Problems With Dispensationalism

Hello @Naomi25,

I am a dispensationalist, an Acts 28 dispensationalist; however, I do not understand why these two 'problems' you have raised should be attributed to dispensationalism particularly.

Hi Chris, sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you, I have a bit of a busy week!
Can I ask what a "Acts 28" Dispensationalists is? I don't believe I've heard of that before?

The two problems:-
1) The pouring out of God's wrath - When? tribulation period or final judgement?
2) 'The day of the Lord' - to what is it referring?

* These are just my thoughts:-

* The early epistles of Paul were written during the approx. 40 years covered by the book of the Acts of the Apostles, yes? During which the door for Israel's national repentance, recognition and acknowledgement of the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah was wide open: and the ministry of the Twelve particularly and Paul, in part during that period, was directed towards that goal - and 'Thy kingdom come'.

* God had, through the preaching of Peter in Acts 3:19-26, made the call for Israel to repent, in order for Christ to return, and the times of refreshing to come from the presence of the Lord.

* What was taking place at Pentecost was declared to be the fulfilment of the prophecy of the prophet Joel (Acts 2:21), referring to - 'the day of the Lord'. That day was to begin by the pouring out of spiritual gifts, and the manifestation of the Spirit's powers: and - it had begun. The day of the Lord had indeed drawn nigh, and in the name of the Lord it was being proclaimed. Judgement was about to 'begin at the house of God' (1 Peter 4:17)

* The earlier epistles of Paul, and that of Peter, James, John and Jude, and their content must be read with this knowledge in mind. They were not written with you and I in mind, but those of Israel, in that generation, for whom the judgement had the potential to be 'at hand'.

I agree that 'you and I' were not in mind while the apostles were writing their letters and books, however, I'm not exactly sure I agree that Israel was the target of them either. We know that the apostles most certainly attempted, even Paul - apostle to the Gentiles - to take the gospel to Israel, but it is clear that the epitles and other books that were written were addressed to those who already believed...in other words...the Church.
I agree that certain wrath and judgement did come down upon Israel in 70 AD, but again, I feel the need to stress that many of the verses I see talking about 'wrath' in context of the subject at hand, seem to me to be speaking salvation or judgement that comes at Christ's return, rather than what happened to the Jews in 70AD.

* In the first of his epistles Paul had written to the Thessalonian believers (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18), referring to them as 'firstfruits', and telling them that at the sending of Jesus Christ, the dead in Christ should first rise, and then they who were alive should 'be caught up together with them' (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). These would indeed have been the 'firstfruits' of which James speaks in his Epistle (1:18). They were waiting for Christ's return.

Actually, he doesn't refer to them as 'firstfruits' in 1 Thess 4, but in 2 Thess 2:13. And the very clear reference in doing so is to them being "saved by sanctification through the Spirit and belief in the truth".
I think we must conclude that, here, being 'firstfruits' means being among the first to be saved by grace under the new covenant, rather than being 'caught up to Christ'. We see in 1 Cor 15 that Christ was the 'firstfruits' to be raised from the dead and receive a new resurrection body, and in that regard, when we are 'caught up' to receive our new bodies, we are, in fact, secondfruits...if such a word exists.

* In Acts 17 we are told that Paul went to the synagogue of the Jews at Thessalonica, and reasoned with them out of the Scriptures. He was not founding a church, with it's services, and institutions, No, He ministered the Scriptures to these attendant Jews, it was they who were the 'firstfruits' of the nation, along with all like them. It is they who would be 'caught up' to meet the Lord in the air, and be delivered from the wrath to come. However Israel as a nation did not repent, the Lord did not therefore return: all is in abeyance until a future day.

Paul started with the Jews wherever he went, even though he was apostle to the Gentiles. However, I think you may be missing a rather large element here....we do not say "Paul ministered to the Jews and those that believed him became 'believing Jews'"....no...from the very beginning, from Pentecost, whosoever believed, BECAME the Church...Jew or Gentile. So...when he did preach to the Jews, and if they DID believe...they became the Church there. And every Gentile who believed was added to them. Remember, there is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ? Paul's own teaching...
I think trying to determine who, amongst the Church, were Jew and who were Greek, and therefore who could be technically classified as 'firstfruits' and therefore be 'caught up' is 'barking up the wrong tree', theologically. There is nothing in scripture that really gives us leave to pursue that line of thinking. Nor the one that says God went "fiddlesticks...the Jews just aren't falling into line...what now? Plan B...the Gentiles!" No...from the beginning it was God's plan to "bless ALL nations" through Abraham and 'his seed'. It was always God's plan to bring blessing to us Gentiles THROUGH the Jews, and then use us to provoke the Jews to jealousy, therefore saving "all Israel". No wonder Paul, after disclosing this, breaks into praise!

* What is that wrath? Is it not that of which Peter spoke at Pentecost:-

'But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all His prophets,
that Christ should suffer, He hath so fulfilled.
.. Repent ye therefore, and be converted,
.... that your sins may be blotted out,
...... when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
And He shall send Jesus Christ,
..

Well, I was more looking at 'wrath' in lines with these sort of passages, which is what Dispensationalists often quote in terms of the 'Tribulation':

For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ - 1 Thessalonians 5:9

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. - John 3:36

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction - Romans 9:22

But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. - Romans 2:5

To me, while its obvious that 'wrath' is mentioned, it's just as clear that on the other side of the scale is balanced 'salvation'....as in, 'those who are saved will not face wrath on the day of judgement'.....that's "ultimate salvation/damnation" language, not "wrath pouring out on the earth over a period of time cause you've all been naughty and deserve a prelude to hell" sort of language.
Of course...that could just be me...!

* I am, like you Naomi25, thinking through this whole matter, so please bear with my reasoning.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

I like people who are 'thinking it through'....mostly because I like thinking things through too! You can never have enough 'thinking things through' when it comes to bible stuff! Even when you think you're pretty sure....think it through again! Bring it back to scripture and bring it back to prayer and hopefully have some good, fellowship conversation in the meantime!

Copperhead · Jun 4, 2019

Where things get all messed up I think is how the term "dispensation" is used. Dispensation simply means a system, order/model, or method. And anyone really has to admit that how Yahweh did things prior to the Flood, after the Flood and prior to the Hebrews coming out of Egypt, from the giving of the Torah to the coming of Messiah, to how things are done since Yeshua died and rose again is all different. That is what dispensational is all about, simply a change in model, system, methodology.

Also, dispensation is greater revelation or knowledge. It has to be admitted that with each of these segments or dispensations, a higher level of revelation of Yahweh was brought out. That also is what a dispensation is. And the ultimate dispensation will be when Yeshua rules on the earth.

It really is that simple. So to adhere to a dispensational idea is not unrealistic. It really need not be a food fight among the brethren.

Keraz · Jun 4, 2019

Copperhead said:
I guess I just have a higher view of the Lord and the way He has things laid out so that I think that the prosecutorial judgment of the GWT is only for those who have not been previously categorized as redeemed. Silly me to think the Lord was more organized than the government. Now I understand why some folks abuse drugs.

I have always said that the GT was for the ungodly, those who do take the mark of the beast.
There is your poorly phrased comment about drugs.

Copperhead said:
Apology? Never expected it. But I know who and what you are more clearly now. And it certainly is not the level of a prophet.

This is also an unacceptable comment. Who are you to judge me?
Actually, I never claim to be a prophet at all; I am just a messenger, as my name means.

The content of your posts is to discredit me personally, rather than making your case with scripture. This shows that you have no proofs for your beliefs.

Naomi25 · Jun 4, 2019

farouk said:
Yes, indeed; but context and grammar can help!

Yes, true. But it's also essential, I think, to see what scripture, as a whole, is meaning when it speaks of "Israel". Was it just a people, just a nation, just a land? Was it supposed to point to something, did it have a purpose in God's redemptive plan? How does the NT writers view Israel and the promises that were made to it?
Like I said....big question!!

Naomi25 · Jun 4, 2019

stunnedbygrace said:
I'm not even sure it IS a full 7 years. Some verses seem to suggest that time will be cut short...

But as I understand it, Dispensationalists would then be in a bind of sorts. How could they take both passages 'literally'? To meet the 7 years...the x amount of days (sorry, can't be bothered looking them up now, but basically 2 lots of 3 and a half years), AND having that 'time cut short'...wouldn't that mean that one of those passages would be wrong? Unless cutting the time short WAS 7 years. In other words, it was supposed to be much longer and 7 years IS the short version!

Enoch111 · Jun 4, 2019

Naomi25 said:
but basically 2 lots of 3 and a half years), AND having that 'time cut short'...wouldn't that mean that one of those passages would be wrong?

Not necessarily. Christ said that the Great Tribulation would be shortened for the sake of the elect (Mt 24:22). So the Bible presents the total time period of seven years as a shortened period of six years and approximately 5 months (2300 days) (Dan 8:14).

Keraz · Jun 4, 2019

Enoch111 said:
Christ said that the Great Tribulation would be shortened for the sake of the elect (Mt 24:22)

This is not correct.
Jesus was referring to His terrible Day of fiery wrath, not to the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls; which will all happen during the last 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns. Proved by Matthew 24:21 It will be a time of great destruction, such has never before been seen and will never be again. Paralleled by Joel 2:2, which describes the Sixth Seal Day of the Lord's wrath. Revelation 6:12-17
That worldwide disaster by fire from the sun, could last for several days, but then no one would survive. So it will be a fast moving CME that will pass quickly and most will survive, especially those faithful Christians who will do what we are told to do: Call upon the Name of the Lord and you will be saved. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21 Most of those killed will be in the ME region. Ezekiel 30:1-5, Zephaniah 1:14-18 & 2:4-5

Two particular problems with dispensationalism...

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