This may sound silly but...I had a pretty bad week at the shop last week. First bad week in a while. I sold very little. I went out front to have a cigarette and I started to be harassed again. As I was putting out my cigarette, I accidentally spoke out loud. I muttered, oh just shut up, He knows what I need. Then from behind me, I heard a voice say, excuse me...?? A woman walking by thought I told her to shut up. Hahaha!
The Crucified Life
- Thread starter Episkopos
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I was hoping that you would pick out a passage or 2 and we could look at them together.
Much love!
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And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.
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And now, dear children, remain in fellowship with Christ so that when he returns, you will be full of courage and not shrink back from him in shame.
And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming.
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Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
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Start with these two.
Hi Episkopos,
I appreciate your response!
Like this . . .
Romans 13:13-14
Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
I question whether this means that we cease to be In Christ.
Galatians 3:24-27
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Does not this passage teach us that all of God's children have put on Christ? Those who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
I see Scripture which tells us that we both have put on Christ, and that we are to put on Christ. But this does not cause me any issues, since I'm used to this kind of teaching. Just like that we have been crucified, yet we are to mortify our members on the earth.
We have been sanctified, we are being sanctified, and we will be sanctified. Hopefully those familiar with these things will understand as I give my view that we have put on Christ in that we have been reborn with His divine nature. And we are to put on Christ, which is to let that nature live through our bodies of flesh.
Doesn't that passage invite us to "boldly come to the throne of grace that we may find help in time of need"?
Are you saying we lack grace? But I think this more goes towards the difference in what we each see that God has done in our rebirth, or so it seems to me.
But yes, we participate in our lives, going to God for help when we need it.
I don't really like to comingle verses which are about different things, unless that's not what you have in mind.
The extra mile was Jesus telling us to give more to others. But let me ask you . . .
What exactly do you mean in "going that extra mile to put on Christ"? What does that actually mean?
I don't think we need to try to be crucified, I read that God does that when we believe. I also believe that God has already acted on us according to His plan.
He's given birth to us who are His spirit children, who are righteous and holy, according to the nature we now share with Him.
We live in a body of flesh, just as did Jesus, though His without sin. But not so for us. The beauty of the new birth is that we are no longer that sinner born from Adam, we are now born from God, entirely separate, alive with Him in the heavenlies.
The body of flesh will seek for supremecy, to works it's ways. We are to live our new life, denying the flesh control, and instead living Christ.
I see that God's action on us is to show us the lies of our flesh, and the goodness of His will, as we grow more into living His way.
It seems that you see this as a pathetic attempt at self control, just the same, self-control is fruit produced by the Spirit, and is what the Bible teaches us.
Much love!
1 John 2:24-29
24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
Great passage!
This abiding in Christ, this then means the same thing as when the Scripture talks about being "in Christ", is that your understanding? So then the one who is not abiding in Christ, is not in fact "in Christ"?
John 15:1-8
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
And the same is here, that to "abide in Jesus" is the same as when we read about being "in Christ"?
Much love!
Yes. I think it means the same. Remain in Him/abide in Him/trust in Him/keep trusting.
Jesus and the apostle exhorted us to remain in Him, to remain in trust, to examine ourselves to see if we really are in faith (trust.)
Hi Episkopos,
I have a little different perspective on this. Living crucified, there is no watching from the back seat, since the flesh is put off. Not that putting off the flesh means we are physically dead, rather that it does not have the ascendancy over our thinking, feeling, and doing.
And I'd say it's not a hard place to get into at all, it's actually impossible. God has to do the work. And once He does, this is a gift He's given to us, if we will only walk in it.
Do you hold the baptism of the Spirit to be different from what happens when you are reborn?
How would that be so?
Are you advocating a life of legalism intermingled with liberty in the Spirit?
Let me ask a different question.
Is there anything we do outside of being In the Spirit that has eternal value?
I always like to go the Bible for my definitions.
Do you have any in particular in mind about a difference between being led by the Spirit and being in the Spirit?
Also, I'm not really able to think of any passages of hand about bing inspired by the Spirit, I'm not sure what you mean.
As far as testimonies, I haven't been sufficiently provoked to the foolishness of boasting. What good is that?
What does it matter what I say, if people cannot accept what the Bible says? And if it's what the Bible says, that is sufficient. And if it's not what the Bible says, well, that part's obvious.
Much love!
It is not boasting to discuss the way, to discuss our walk, to discuss our trials, to discuss how God teaches and leads us.
I believe that when I leave off trust, I am sinning, and that when that happens, yes, I am not at that time, currently abiding.
You may want to refer to episkopos, he recently made a thread about the "saints", and the "faithful", two different groups, with future roles in relation to each other, the saints obtaining to special status not shared by the faithful.
And this comes down to two groups of Christians in this world too, as there are those who have added their own such a difficult sacrifice of themselves to the sacrifice made by Jesus, in order to attain to this special status of being "in Christ", the place where you never sin, and never want to.
I'm trying to be fair here. While still trying to show this teaching as I see it.
I'm curious . . . why do you think this?
Much love!
Not abiding in Christ, correct. Not remaining in trust in Him. Not continuing in trust. Having stumbled.
There is only one thing God wants from you, that you believe in the one He sent (my paraphrase.)
Since "abiding" means "to remain" (you keep qualifying your answer to me) Then if we sin, we do not remain, or abide in Christ, and therefore we cease to be in Christ.
Having been baptized into Christ, are we then no longer in Christ?
Having received our redemption in Christ, are we no longer redeemed?
Having received our adoption in Christ, are we no longer heirs?
Paul has a completely different answer to this in Romans 7.
Much love!
We've already discussed this. He is faithful even when we are unfaithful. And He is patient.
You want to believe you are always remaining in trust and that you have no mistrust. You testify that remaining in trust in Him is quite easy and not a struggle. Your testimony is not the testimony of any man who God has tested as metal to remove his slag. This is why I said you will not understand yet.
No, I'm not.
I prefer to discuss actual passages using the Biblical wording from sufficiently literal translations. I find there tend to be fewer misunderstandings that way.
There are many misunderstood passages.
One example is this:
Hebrews 3:14 "For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"
Many understand this passage to teach that if our confidence fails us, we are no longer partakers of Christ. But that couldn't be further from what it really teaches.
"Made partakers" is in the perfect tense, which means it was done once for all. It's like a bell. You cast a bell, hang it, attach the clapper, but no one has rang it yet. It is an unrung bell. You walk over, pull the rope, "Bong!" It's a rung bell. Same tense. Once it's been rung, it cannot go back to becoming "unrung". If you've been made a partaker in this tense, you cannot return to not being a partaker.
We are made partakers of Christ if we hold our confidence. If we don't hold our confidence, we were not made partakers of Christ. This agrees with John who wrote that they were not made manifest that they were not of us until they went out from us.
They were in our church, but they were never true. We didn't know until they left. But they were never true. The true remain.
Much love!
But it's not just that Christ is in us, the Bible teaches that anyone who is In Christ is a new creation. If you sin, you are no longer in Christ, what then? Not in Christ, how are you a new creation?
I'm not trying to be nitpicky. I'm being serious.
