How do we attain unity?

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marks

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Greetings, marks. People react badly when I speak critically of the modern church, but in all honesty I think we are a long ways off just yet from what Paul was talking about in this passage. It is prophesied that we will get there, but let me tell you what he was describing here for starters.

The Greek actually reads, "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the recognition of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ." What he's talking about is recognizing Christ in full manifestation in the church, i.e. everyone coming into the recognition of Christ manifesting Himself through the entire church in His fullness, in all power, authority, wisdom and revelation, with every gift in full manifestation. This is why Paul adds at the end, "From whom the whole body, fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplies, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, makes increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." He's talking about Christ's body edifying itself and increasing itself through the operation of the gifts of the Spirit as described in 1 Corinthians 14:26-28. This will be impossible until the full manifestation of the supernatural gifts are restored, and even then the church will have to master not quenching the Holy Spirit, something that happens whenever churches give themselves over to strife in doctrinal matters instead of keeping the peace of Christ in the bonds of love, and letting the peace of Christ "referee" (i.e. or rule) among them.

We are a long ways off from what he was talking about here still, but Joel 2:28 promises that the gifts of the Spirit including prophecy will eventually be fully restored to the body of Christ in the end-times, and I believe they will eventually walk in the unity of the faith on a level never even dreamt of during New Testament times.

How long it takes until we get there is anyone's guess, but I don't see it happening quickly (unfortunately).

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden

Hi Hidden,

We may not be as far if you only consider the true church, and not the what I call apparent church, or what Sir Anderson called Christendom.

"Epignosis", Upon Knowledge, deeper knowledge, recognition is good, I like that! Realization is another way I see this translated.

I'm of the mind that faith will continue to diminish in the last days, to where Jesus even asked, Will the Son of Man find faith when He returns?

I'd love to be wrong about that!

Just the same, I take this instruction and intent to be for us, here, now.

Definitely the answer is Christ is all, and in all. But in the meantime, is there anything we can do?

Much love!
 
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Nancy

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Greetings, marks. People react badly when I speak critically of the modern church, but in all honesty I think we are a long ways off just yet from what Paul was talking about in this passage. It is prophesied that we will get there, but let me tell you what he was describing here for starters.

The Greek actually reads, "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the recognition of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ." What he's talking about is recognizing Christ in full manifestation in the church, i.e. everyone coming into the recognition of Christ manifesting Himself through the entire church in His fullness, in all power, authority, wisdom and revelation, with every gift in full manifestation. This is why Paul adds at the end, "From whom the whole body, fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplies, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, makes increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." He's talking about Christ's body edifying itself and increasing itself through the operation of the gifts of the Spirit as described in 1 Corinthians 14:26-28. This will be impossible until the full manifestation of the supernatural gifts are restored, and even then the church will have to master not quenching the Holy Spirit, something that happens whenever churches give themselves over to strife in doctrinal matters instead of keeping the peace of Christ in the bonds of love, and letting the peace of Christ "referee" (i.e. or rule) among them.

We are a long ways off from what he was talking about here still, but Joel 2:28 promises that the gifts of the Spirit including prophecy will eventually be fully restored to the body of Christ in the end-times, and I believe they will eventually walk in the unity of the faith on a level never even dreamt of during New Testament times.

How long it takes until we get there is anyone's guess, but I don't see it happening quickly (unfortunately).

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden

Hi Hidden,
Haven't seen you in a while, nice to see you on here!
Good post, I agree with all of it, as far as my knowledge allows me to, lol. And, yes-I do not see it happening any time soon at all. "Doctrines of men", Doctrines of demons",false teachers...These all contribute to dis-unity. I do not see ANY of that going away before Jesus ushers in His Kingdom. :)
 
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Hidden In Him

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We may not be as far if you only consider the true church, and not the what I call apparent church, or what Sir Anderson called Christendom.

I'm all up for some good news if you have any, LoL. :)
"Epignosis", Upon Knowledge, deeper knowledge, recognition is good, I like that! Realization is another way I see this translated.

Realization is actually pretty good, although the word often carries a visual sense about it in the way we talk today about recognizing an individual we see on the street. Peter uses it in discussing spiritual blindness in 2 Peter 1.
I'm of the mind that faith will continue to diminish in the last days, to where Jesus even asked, Will the Son of Man find faith when He returns?

I'd love to be wrong about that!

Just the same, I take this instructions and intent to be for us, here, now.

Personally, I take Christ's question of "will the Son of man find faith" as imploring the disciples to endure until the end, not so much that He was declaring it prophetically : ) My belief based on some modern prophesies is that the true church will be ablaze with the fire of God when the Lord finally returns, and their doctrines will have been honed into a laser-like focus by that time. Scripture itself also says that she will be a spotless bride by this time, and the church won't become spotless without a tremendous Presence of the Holy Spirit abiding upon her.
Definately the answer is Christ is all, and in all. But in the meantime, is there anything we can do?

Much love!

Amen!

In the meantime.... I teach that fasting and corporate prayer is what brought the gifts of the Spirit during NT times. Before Pentecost, they were all praying in one accord in the upper room, and the Spirit fell so strongly that it was visible as tongues of fire. They were also praying as one when Peter was supernaturally delivered from prison. So I personally think those with ears to hear will need to return to serious corporate prayer and fasting before we will see much happen supernaturally again. But that's a tough message to get across to people. Trust me, LoL.
 
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Hidden In Him

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Hi Hidden,
Haven't seen you in a while, nice to see you on here!
Good post, I agree with all of it, as far as my knowledge allows me to, lol. And, yes-I do not see it happening any time soon at all. "Doctrines of men", Doctrines of demons",false teachers...These all contribute to dis-unity. I do not see ANY of that going away before Jesus ushers in His Kingdom. :)

Good to see you again, too! Yeah, the Lord has given me some time to check in again. It's been nice. I even interpreted a few dreams, which I haven't done in a long time. Hopefully I can hang around for a bit before I have to get back to my projects.

About it going away, I do think it will amongst the true church and the true body of believers eventually. But denominationalism, despite all the good that has come out of the various ones, will actually become a hinderance to the move of God when it comes. I think many will leave their pet doctrines and systems of theology for a far more powerful move of God. Many however will not. It will all depend on who is willing to be led of the Spirit. I see many on forums like ours that might be willing to, so the sooner it can begin the better IMO.
 

amadeus

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Do we have the same Spirit? If so how can we not be united through Him? In spite of all the differences of beliefs and doctrinal issues surely if we all have the same Spirit isn't that unity of the Spirit if not of the mind which is human.
Perhaps some having received the same Spirit, have simply quenched that Spirit within them so often that they do not recognize God's voice within anymore and go along their own merry way assured only in a delusion onto which they hold fast in place of that first encountered love of Truth! This is perhaps one of the worst... if not the worst... problem with belonging to an established church organization. They have perhaps learned too well to quench the Holy Spirit and do it routinely without scarcely ever raising a question even in their own minds or hearts that they might be in error... that they have left their first love:

"And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." Rev 2:3-5
 
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marks

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I'm all up for some good news if you have any, LoL. :)
We can personally grow into amazing lives filled with the power of God, regardless of how long until the end.

Personally, I take Christ's question of "will the Son of man find faith" as imploring the disciples to endure until the end, not so much that He was declaring it prophetically : )

Yes, I think He could have been metaphorical, wanting to incite faith.

In the meantime.... I teach that fasting and corporate prayer is what brought the gifts of the Spirit during NT times. Before Pentecost, they were all praying in one accord in the upper room, and the Spirit fell so strongly that it was visible as tongues of fire. They were also praying as one when Peter was supernaturally delivered from prison. So I personally think those with ears to hear will need to return to serious corporate prayer and fasting before we will see much happen supernaturally again. But that's a tough message to get across to people. Trust me, LoL.

Yeah, I expect so, considering what's happened to attendance for the potluck! If they won't show up to eat, why would they show up to not?

We need unity to seek after unity!

Much love!
 
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Hidden In Him

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Yeah, I expect so, considering what's happened to attendance for the potluck! If they won't show up to eat, why would they show up to not?

We need unity to seek after unity!

LoL! That is pretty bad... Most churches I've seen get amazingly good attendance when food is going to be part of the service. The same crowd just isn't quite as interested when fasting is on "the menu."


07-funny-gif-256-dog-not-interested-with-ball.gif
 

Hope in God

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I think it is important to give attention to all of Paul's words when considering the meaning of what he termed "the unity of the faith" in his letter to the Ephesians:

1 Corinthians 1:10
Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

The unity he was writing about was that which equates to "speaking the same things," and he joins this with having the same mind and judgment, as he did below:

Ephesians 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ

Notice that word "perfect" again. Which work of salvation is he referring to? Justification, sanctification or glorification? When will we becoming to "the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ"? When we grow to maturity through the work of both the Word and the Spirit. For if we are all Word and no Spirit, we dry up, all Spirit and no Word, we puff up, but a balance of the two, we grow up.

To Titus, Paul wrote, connecting speaking to sound doctrine or teaching:
Titus 2:1
But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

The unity of the faith has a great deal to do with doctrinal agreement, through knowledge, which, as I see at this time, may never manifest in our lives. There are far too many divisions among the church. Some of the most easy to entreat doctrines are being disputed, which makes the process difficult.
 

Enoch111

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So then how do we go about restoring unity with those who are distracted by the things of the world and of the flesh?
marks,
It is not our job to restore unity, but it is our job to maintain unity. Those who depart from the faith give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons. Only God can deal with them. The Spirit and Paul already told us that this would happen, and we are now seeing it with our own eyes.

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron...(1 Tim 4:1,2)

We maintain the unity of the faith by believing and holding on to what God has said about (1) Himself, (2) Christ, (3) salvation, and (4) the Christian life. This encompasses the whole body of Christian doctrine or Christian truth. And in all of this the key doctrine is "the doctrine of Christ". Therefore the apostle John admonishes Christians thus:

2 JOHN 1
7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into
your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

What is "the doctrine of Christ"? Everything from Genesis to Revelation that reveals Christ, who is both fully God and fully sinless Man.


 

Heart2Soul

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Ephesians 4

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

How are we to attain to this unity of faith and knowledge of Jesus? Reaching maturity, so we can stop being blown about by different doctrines, but instead build up the body in love?

What do the Scriptures say?

Much love!
Mark
IMHO...this unity will take when Christians put aside their religious doctrines and simply study the Word allowing the Holy Spirit to open our understanding.
God gave a very specific Word to 7 different churches. Each was commended for their faithfulness and obedience, but some were also chastised...well except for one....that church is not getting any praise from God.
The differences of each church is very significant as to how they serve. So many would say they are not in unity because of their differences. But I believe they are in unity because of their faith....they were each given an instruction and what the reward would be for obeying His instructions. And each one had a different one.
So my take on the unity is in having our faith be equal in all teachings of the Word.
 

FHII

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How are we to attain to this unity of faith and knowledge of Jesus? Reaching maturity, so we can stop being blown about by different doctrines, but instead build up the body in love?

What do the Scriptures say?
You asked the question, but the answer is given in verses 11 and 12. But you have to look at verse 8 also. He gave gifts into men. One of the gifts he gave to some men (all men, really... And it means people in general here) is apostles. He didn't give some men the gift of apostleship. He gave the gift of an apostle to other men.

Let me explain:. Paul received the gift of being an apostle. That is true! But Paul the Apostle was a gift to Presilla and Aquilla, to Timothy and Titus, to the Corinthians and Ephisians. He WAS the gift!

The prophets were a gift as well, as we're evangelists, pastors and teachers.

This portion of scripture is saying God gave me and you gifts: those gifts are the Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers.

If they are in line with God, those gifts (the apostles, prophets, etc...) will lead us (the saints) to perfection. When we follow them, we are led to perfection.
 

marks

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I think it is important to give attention to all of Paul's words when considering the meaning of what he termed "the unity of the faith" in his letter to the Ephesians:

1 Corinthians 1:10
Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

The unity he was writing about was that which equates to "speaking the same things," and he joins this with having the same mind and judgment, as he did below:

Ephesians 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ

Notice that word "perfect" again. Which work of salvation is he referring to? Justification, sanctification or glorification? When will we becoming to "the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ"? When we grow to maturity through the work of both the Word and the Spirit. For if we are all Word and no Spirit, we dry up, all Spirit and no Word, we puff up, but a balance of the two, we grow up.

To Titus, Paul wrote, connecting speaking to sound doctrine or teaching:
Titus 2:1
But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

The unity of the faith has a great deal to do with doctrinal agreement, through knowledge, which, as I see at this time, may never manifest in our lives. There are far too many divisions among the church. Some of the most easy to entreat doctrines are being disputed, which makes the process difficult.
Hi Hope in God,

Some good thoughts!

It sure does seem an uphill battle! Your final words, the process is difficult, just for that reason. We disagree on certain dearly held things, and fail to find our unity. What has me thinking about this is in wanting to learn better how to realize more of our unity as a church even though there are such differences.

And of course, "as much as it be in your power, live at peace with all . . .", unity is between many, not one. Hmph.

But there's just so much we can do. But what can we do?

Much love!
 
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marks

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IMHO...this unity will take when Christians put aside their religious doctrines and simply study the Word allowing the Holy Spirit to open our understanding.
Hi Heart2Soul,

Your post reminded me of some musings I had one day about those 7 churches, the lampstands in particular.

The temple lamp was of course seven lamps on a single stand. These 7 churches were each their own lampstand, but they were not their own lamps.

Before the church God's light was in the Jews, a single source point for all the points of light, and you could see it, the common base, the menorah, the Jews.

In the church, the lampstands appear to stand separately, each with their own light, but the reality is that the light is from the same Holy Spirit.

That which is visible and material in the Old Testment is invisible and spirit in the New Testament.

Just some thoughts I had.

But I think that if we can all learn the same thing, we will in fact learn we are one.

Then there's the thing we do in church on Christmas Eve, everybody has a candle, and we pass the light from person to person until the entire room is lit. And we can look around in the glow and see we all are one.

Much love!
 

marks

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You asked the question, but the answer is given in verses 11 and 12. But you have to look at verse 8 also. He gave gifts into men. One of the gifts he gave to some men (all men, really... And it means people in general here) is apostles. He didn't give some men the gift of apostleship. He gave the gift of an apostle to other men.

Let me explain:. Paul received the gift of being an apostle. That is true! But Paul the Apostle was a gift to Presilla and Aquilla, to Timothy and Titus, to the Corinthians and Ephisians. He WAS the gift!

The prophets were a gift as well, as we're evangelists, pastors and teachers.

This portion of scripture is saying God gave me and you gifts: those gifts are the Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers.

If they are in line with God, those gifts (the apostles, prophets, etc...) will lead us (the saints) to perfection. When we follow them, we are led to perfection.
So we need to understand who God is giving to each of us, and receive God's plenty!

This is how I feel about the pastor of my church. This is a man I knew right away that I wanted to get close to him, so his love for God and others might rub off on me if only a little.

It drives me nuts how there are so many who are in that role, each of these roles, who are esteemed in those roles, and who are so clearly teaching differently from the Bible. I mean, in this place some debate and argue all day long about any number of things.

I don't agree necessarily with everything my pastor says, and he and I have had a few discussions about those. But as far as personal primary relationships in my life, my wife, then my immediate blood relatives, then my pastor.

Then there's the matter of the evangelist who uses worldly music and themes and manipulations, and gives a display of Christianity that I find embarrassing, but then at the end give the gospel message for 5 or 10 minutes, and calls forward a crowd of professing believers, but they're not, for the most part. But a few are. And so the gospel is preached.

You make a good point, God has given certain ones to bring us into that unity.

Much love!
 
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Heart2Soul

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Hi Heart2Soul,

Your post reminded me of some musings I had one day about those 7 churches, the lampstands in particular.

The temple lamp was of course seven lamps on a single stand. These 7 churches were each their own lampstand, but they were not their own lamps.

Before the church God's light was in the Jews, a single source point for all the points of light, and you could see it, the common base, the menorah, the Jews.

In the church, the lampstands appear to stand separately, each with their own light, but the reality is that the light is from the same Holy Spirit.

That which is visible and material in the Old Testment is invisible and spirit in the New Testament.

Just some thoughts I had.

But I think that if we can all learn the same thing, we will in fact learn we are one.

Then there's the thing we do in church on Christmas Eve, everybody has a candle, and we pass the light from person to person until the entire room is lit. And we can look around in the glow and see we all are one.

Much love!
Amazing! I love it!
 

ScottA

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Ephesians 4

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

How are we to attain to this unity of faith and knowledge of Jesus? Reaching maturity, so we can stop being blown about by different doctrines, but instead build up the body in love?

What do the Scriptures say?

Much love!
Mark
Matthew 6:33
"But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you."
 

Jon Mathews

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Unity is a spiritual state of mutual maturity and agreement. When we all preach the same Gospel, we can all have the same One Faith in that Gospel. Then we can all receive the One Spirit from the One Lord and all be members of One Body, having received the One Baptism from Jesus Christ. Then when we edify each other and grow up in that One Faith, we will all attain to maturity in Christ and we will have Unity in the Spirit.
 

FHII

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This is how I feel about the pastor of my church. This is a man I knew right away that I wanted to get close to him, so his love for God and others might rub off on me if only a little.
Good to hear! You later said you don't agree with everything you pastor says, and that's fine. I have a slightly different attitude. If I don't agree I tend to sit back and wait for further explanation. Somewhere in Ecc 13 it says to hear the conclusion of the whole matter. So I tend to sit back and wait. Then, if I am confused then I will shoot him an email looking for further clarification.

But as far as personal primary relationships in my life, my wife, then my immediate blood relatives, then my pastor

Wish I could say the same. However, most of my blood relatives don't really have a love for God like I do. I am kinda shunned because I do. I am not saying I love my pastor more than my earthly family, but I love God more than my earthly family. My Pastor is preaching Jesus and they aren't.

Then there's the matter of the evangelist who uses worldly music and themes and manipulations, and gives a display of Christianity that I find embarrassing, but then at the end give the gospel message for 5 or 10 minutes, and calls forward a crowd of professing believers, but they're not, for the most part. But a few are. And so the gospel is preached.
I wish I could relate to that. I mean, yes I've heard about them and the garbage some bring, but I don't need an evangelist at this point.

I don't have a problem with worldly music. Any type of music is meant for worship. To dançe and sing for God. According to many verses in Psalms, God seems to like it. But when it's meant to draw a crowd, it's the wrong reason. It's the preaching that should draw folks. Listen to what God has to say, then praise him in the dance.

Slightly off topic, but our Pastor has a dance performance to Metallica's "Nothing Else Matters". The song ain't got a thing to do with Jesus, but the title is fitting! I only bring that up cause we got a Metalhead around hear now. Thought he might enjoy that!#MetalMike.

Overall, evangelists should rely on the foundation, which is the 12 Apostles and Jesus. Music and flash are ok. But it's a cheap stunt to rely on them.

Like your thinking, Marks!
 

marks

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Good to hear! You later said you don't agree with everything you pastor says, and that's fine. I have a slightly different attitude. If I don't agree I tend to sit back and wait for further explanation. Somewhere in Ecc 13 it says to hear the conclusion of the whole matter. So I tend to sit back and wait. Then, if I am confused then I will shoot him an email looking for further clarification.

Oh, just because I disagree with something, it's not over till its over. Plenty of times I've come to his point of view. Sometimes He's come to mine. We do discuss, it's really good.

Wish I could say the same. However, most of my blood relatives don't really have a love for God like I do. I am kinda shunned because I do. I am not saying I love my pastor more than my earthly family, but I love God more than my earthly family. My Pastor is preaching Jesus and they aren't

I'm sorry to hear that that you don't have the fellowship in your family. Not all my family is saved. Its very sad!

I don't have a problem with worldly music. Any type of music is meant for worship. To dançe and sing for God. According to many verses in Psalms, God seems to like it. But when it's meant to draw a crowd, it's the wrong reason. It's the preaching that should draw folks. Listen to what God has to say, then praise him in the dance.

I'm more talking about music with words that reflect the world's worldview.

Slightly off topic, but our Pastor has a dance performance to Metallica's "Nothing Else Matters". The song ain't got a thing to do with Jesus, but the title is fitting! I only bring that up cause we got a Metalhead around hear now. Thought he might enjoy that! @MetalMike .

I'll leave that one to you and your pastor. For personal reasons, I've learned to only listen to certain music which actively spiritual builds me up.

Overall, evangelists should rely on the foundation, which is the 12 Apostles and Jesus. Music and flash are ok. But it's a cheap stunt to rely on them.

Like your thinking, Marks!

Cheap, a stunt, but like I said, the gospel gets preached, and people do get saved.

and thank you! I enjoy our conversations.

Much love!
 
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