Gods Standard is...

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WalterandDebbie

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Does "perfect" mean to have no flaws, or does it mean to try to be as complete as you can be?

Did we let ourselves get all hung up on the English translation of a Hebrew concept?

what does the word perfect mean in matthew 5:48 - Bing

The above means to me as having no flaws in my life due to turning away from a sinful nature. Romans 8:6

For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

But as for as a Hebrew concept I would say that, And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Galatians 6:16
 
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Jon Mathews

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Perfection. And who BUT God is perfect? None. Jesus had to be God Himself, as only God is perfect...in ALL His ways. How could any BUT God incarnate atone for our sins? Anything less would not meet His standard. Jesus was/is perfect as God is perfect.
There is no other way ♥ How could any other than God Himself atone for our sin? Our redemption will only be complete through Gods standard...perfection through Him in the person of The Christ.
Thoughts? :)

Just to add to this thread's practicality, God's standard is Jesus Christ. God's Perfection, Holiness, Righteousness.... these are all seen clearly in Jesus Christ. If we want to meet God's Standard, we must walk in God's Way (Jesus Christ). And to do that, we must be a member of Christ's Body.... we must have Christ's Spirit to live like Christ and meet God's Standard.
 
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APAK

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nice, um "we" might also note the reply given to Thomas there
the lack of it i mean?

how ya been?
So ..I am doing well and feel great as can be..., spouse is a little disabled....ligament tear on side of knee...she's is still recovering from ankle and foot issues for 10 months now....age is catching up with her....
It seems you are as usual having fun and also having some serious discussion....way to go....bless you bro...may our creator bring you good surprises in your future....APAK
 

APAK

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first thanks for the reply and not an attack, which is good, so I in like will do the same. I have considered this, but i would like for you to consider this.

it's the lord Jesus who the apostle is speaking of, and here;s why. the apostle Paul said, 1 Timothy 6:15 "Which in his times he shall shew, [who][ is] the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords". understand scripture confirm scripture, and here's the confirming scripture that this is the Lord Jesus. scripture, Revelation 19:11 "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Revelation 19:12 "His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Revelation 19:13 "And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Revelation 19:14 "And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.Revelation 19:15 "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Revelation 19:16 "And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS".

There's our comfirmation that this is the Lord JESUS, he's King of kings and Lord of lord's.

so I ask in return to reconsider your assessment. will be looking to hear from you.

PICJAG.
I believe you have to look at any subject and especially this one that is stated in more that one place in scripture, with perspective and context, else a false conclusion is always the result. I believe you are still trying to force scripture into your doctrine without thinking it through with the Spirit.


Let me briefly explain,


In the OT, YHWH is called the ‘God’ of all ‘gods’ and the Lord of all lords. Reference Deuteronomy 10:17. He still claims this rightful title today and this title is not given to anyone, even Jesus our Lord.


So, Timothy was correct is reapplying or restating this title to YHWH once again. You think he was incorrect in doing so I guess?


Also, the alteration to ‘Kings of kings’ in this version of 1 Tim 6:15 and again in John’s Revelation 19:16 does not change the title one bit. It is permissible and means the same thing…for another discussion…


Now what I suspect you have done again is to race and disregard critical scripture and draw a false conclusion in an effort to force Rev 19:16 as the only source of this subject for your support and doctrine. Yes, at Jesus’ return as Timothy cited correctly in 1 Tim 6: 14, Jesus shall be given authority to use his Father’s title (as ‘seen’ on his garment). This is no earth-shattering new discovery. The Father has the title forever and Jesus temporarily shall have the authority to use it and ‘wear’ it until the Son returns the Kingdom back to the Father…


So the confirmation you and others have is that YHWH still holds the title of this subject and shall give it to his Son, temporarily at Jesus' return. Alas, scripture with context prevails...

Bless you,

APAK
 

101G

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I believe you have to look at any subject and especially this one that is stated in more that one place in scripture, with perspective and context, else a false conclusion is always the result. I believe you are still trying to force scripture into your doctrine without thinking it through with the Spirit.


Let me briefly explain,


In the OT, YHWH is called the ‘God’ of all ‘gods’ and the Lord of all lords. Reference Deuteronomy 10:17. He still claims this rightful title today and this title is not given to anyone, even Jesus our Lord.


So, Timothy was correct is reapplying or restating this title to YHWH once again. You think he was incorrect in doing so I guess?


Also, the alteration to ‘Kings of kings’ in this version of 1 Tim 6:15 and again in John’s Revelation 19:16 does not change the title one bit. It is permissible and means the same thing…for another discussion…


Now what I suspect you have done again is to race and disregard critical scripture and draw a false conclusion in an effort to force Rev 19:16 as the only source of this subject for your support and doctrine. Yes, at Jesus’ return as Timothy cited correctly in 1 Tim 6: 14, Jesus shall be given authority to use his Father’s title (as ‘seen’ on his garment). This is no earth-shattering new discovery. The Father has the title forever and Jesus temporarily shall have the authority to use it and ‘wear’ it until the Son returns the Kingdom back to the Father…


So the confirmation you and others have is that YHWH still holds the title of this subject and shall give it to his Son, temporarily at Jesus' return. Alas, scripture with context prevails...

Bless you,

APAK
thanks for the reply, but we must stand on the truth. yes, scripture must support scripture. since you went to Genesis and trying to identify YHWH, well it's clear who YHWH is. listen, scripture, Genesis 17:1 "And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I [am] the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect".

here, YHWH is identified as the "ALMIGHTY". now Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty". here the Lord Jesus is the "ALMIGHTY". and there is only one almighty.

so we must not agree with your assessment. and we must stand on bible truth. and the bible truth is that JESUS is the "ALMIGHTY".

if you have something different please put it on the table.

PICJAG.
 
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101G

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@APAK. since you think many are confused about titles, may we ask you a question.

in Revelation chapter 4 & 5 the One who sit on the throne, is he the same one who stand as the Lamb in revelation 5:6

please answer yes or no. this should eliminate any confusion of titles.

PICJAG.
 

APAK

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thanks for the reply, but we must stand on the truth. yes, scripture must support scripture. since you went to Genesis and trying to identify YHWH, well it's clear who YHWH is. listen, scripture, Genesis 17:1 "And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I [am] the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect".

here, YHWH is identified as the "ALMIGHTY". now Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty". here the Lord Jesus is the "ALMIGHTY". and there is only one almighty.

so we must not agree with your assessment. and we must stand on bible truth. and the bible truth is that JESUS is the "ALMIGHTY".

if you have something different please put it on the table.

PICJAG.
Get real man. Are you actually reading my posts that keep ruining your doctrine? You have no replies for them. Your replies desperately avoid a direct response. You keep 'running off' to another subject if you have not noticed. And here we go again where we were once speaking about the 'King of kings' where you never replied to my post, and now suddenly we are speaking of our Lord Jesus as the Almighty and the Lord God or YHWH himself. Astonishing, indeed!

And to show what I’m talking about I did not go to Genesis by the way in my last post. I went to Deuteronomy if you care to read back. And it was necessary to show you why you were incorrect again on who is YHWH and our Lord Jesus.

And secondly, you must be tripping if you think that Rev 1:8 is all about our Lord Jesus as the Alpha and Omega, YHWH, and the Almighty.


Do you understand what context means? I’m beginning to wonder if it’s either not important in scripture to you, or that it has relative use and only used if it furthers you doctrine.


Read Rev 1:1 through 1:8 in its entirety and tell me who is verse 8 about again.


Rev 1:1 YHWH gave an angel the words for John concerning our Lord Jesus;

Rev 1:2 is about the testimony of both YHWH and our Lord Jesus;

Rev 1:4 is all about YHWH;

Rev 1:5 is all about our Lord Jesus.

Rev 1:6 is about our Lord Jesus who made us kings and priests, for his Father YHWH

Rev 1:7 is all about our Lord Jesus

Rev 1:8 is all about? -----fill in the blank------

Hint: It is the first person spoken of in Rev 1:1. This is the typical symmetry form and style that John and others wrote in….like traversing a hill from start to finish …ascent.. apex … descent..also like book ends..introduction and conclusion..starts with YHWH and ends with the same subject, YHWH

APAK
 
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brakelite

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so you say, but dont write this in stone imo, k. Riddles have answers, and we are meant to puzzle them out imo. Ive actually been circling "Three-in-Two" for a while now i guess; doubt i invented it tho... https://www.google.com/search?q=is+God+really+3+in+2?&ei=DJv3XNuQCc2MsQW2t4fIBA&start=20&sa=N&ved=0ahUKEwjbxtjMktLiAhVNRqwKHbbbAUk4ChDy0wMIcQ&biw=1024&bih=526

3 Unspiritual Ways To Hear God’s Voice (2 of 2)

maybe i'm not asking it right...still doubt i invented it
Okay, I hear yuh. Let me reword things somewhat...no-one can explain the trinity, because basically the way most present it is filled with supposition and assumption, therefore cannot possibly be adequately explained. On the other hand, the Godhead, may as far as partial revelation is given, should be sufficient to at least give us peace knowing however that full revelation is not given. We have a Father, a Son, and a Spirit that they have shared ownership and possession of. How that works exactly we are not informed, but at least for me, does make sense, and whatever questions I have that arise from that (like how did the Father "beget" a Son...for me that He did, is enough for now) can wait.
 
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101G

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Read Rev 1:1 through 1:8 in its entirety and tell me who is verse 8 about again.


Rev 1:1 YHWH gave an angel the words for John concerning our Lord Jesus;
again we disagree with your assessment. if YHWH gave his angel the word concerning our Lord let's see if the bible say this.
let's go to the source, the angel knows who sent him to John, but let's get the scripture first. Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God (YHWH) gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John".

so according to you God here is YHWH who sent the angel to John, well let's see if the bible say that. let's see who the angel said sent him. Revelation 22:6 "And he said unto me, These sayings [are] faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done". here the angel that was sent told John this.

the angel said the "Lord God" sent him. and according to you, it's the YHWH, or the Father right. well let the bible speak as we will see who sent the angel. same chapter verses 16, Revelation 22:16 "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star".

well Apak the bible don't agree with you, neither do we.... the Lord Jesus (who you say YHWH) sent the angel :eek:
do you know what that means? you told a falshood.

it was the "Lord" Jesus who sent his angel, the "Lord God" of the Holy prophets. yes the Lord God of Genesis. .... (smile)... :rolleyes: yes, the "almighty" of Genesis 17:1, hence Rev 1:8, you didn't get the hint did you?.

Now Apak you're in a dilemma, do you want to keep down that path or come to the LIGHT.... (smile). so now your YHWH is the God of the OT... including Genesis who is JESUS ........ (smile). so you have been reproved by the bible, so don't argue with 101G argue with God..... (smile).

now you want to try the Revelation chapter 4 & 5 question? is the person sitting on the throne the same person who is Standing, the Lamb. your choice to answer or not. ;)

PICJAG.

PS it appears you don't know who is in revelation 1:1-8.
 
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brakelite

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meta does not mean "not real," does it?
Mmmm. That depends on what it is in reference to. If someone suggested my own personal relationship with my father as a son/father relationship as metaphorical, thus intimating I was the literal son to someone else, then I would suggest it meant, 'not real'. And I think many give the Father/Son relationship where it applies to the Godhead, a metaphorical nuance (at least as far as pre-incarnation existence is concerned) which does indeed deny the possibility of a literal understanding.
The early church fathers (before Nicea) all accepted the relationship between God (the Father) and His Son, as being pre-Bethlehem, and literal.
For example....
But our Physician is the only true God, the unbegotten and unapproachable, the Lord of all, the Father and Begetter of the only-begotten Son. We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. (Ignatius, The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians)
For with what reason should we believe of a crucified man that He is the first-born of the unbegotten God, and Himself will pass judgment on the whole human race, unless we had found testimonies concerning Him published before He came and was born as man, and unless we saw that things had happened accordingly -- the devastation of the land of the Jews, and men of every race persuaded by His teaching through the apostles, and rejecting their old habits, in which, being deceived, they had their conversation; yea, seeing ourselves too, and knowing that the Christians from among the Gentiles are both more numerous and more true than those from among the Jews and Samaritans? ("First apology of Justin Martyr‟, chapter LIII, Summary of the prophecies)

That difference between being unbegotten (the Father) and begotten (the Son) being pivotal I think to our understanding.
 

bbyrd009

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the apostle Paul clearly states the one appearin in the last day is Jesus christ. 1 Timothy 6:14 "That thou keep [this] commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Aw, and you still think you're gonna see that with your Two Peepers huh? Cute
that's true just google it, "immortality".
like I'm an idiot or something lol. Whats true, G? "That's" true? Pls.
There is only One Immortal, Who dwells in unapproachable light
No one has ever gone up to heaven

Now both of those are true, slick, do you wanna keep playing Dodge Boys or what
again we disagree
Yknow what, legion, don't bother replying to the above, k, sorry i asked. Best of luck to you in the siege ok. They are coming, right now. For you.
IMG_0066.JPG
 
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brakelite

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Just to be clear (LOL) the phase highlighted in blue and underlined may well be clear to you, but it is not to me even though I may be able to see where you are coming from on it...
Okay, I will rephrase or place a caveat to "three personages". While the Father and Son are distinct and individual, it appears to me that the Spirit has the attributes of a person, but attributes also that take things sideways somewhat, so a person not like the others. I always remember that when we discuss this, we are standing on holy ground so it is appropriate I think to be cautious in all our, as bbryd would remind us, determinations.
 
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brakelite

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GINOLJC, to all.
First, the apostle Peter declared correctly, Jesus is the Christ. but did not Thomas declear correctly also? John 20:28 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God".
now think brakelite, if Jesus is the Christ, (which he is), and he is God, (as Thomas said), how can the person you call Father be the Christ Father when, Christ, according to your doctrine is co-equal with the Father?.

but here's another catch to consider, Jesus the Christ is the ONLY one who is "ETERNAL". let us say this again, Jesus the Christ is the ONLY one who is "ETERNAL". the same Jesus whom Peter declared. here's the scriptures, 1 Timothy 6:13 "I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and [before] Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
1 Timothy 6:14 "That thou keep [this] commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1 Timothy 6:15 "Which in his times he shall shew, [who][ is] the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1 Timothy 6:16 "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen.

so how can someone who is IMMORTAL be someone else Son?

do you see the dilemma your doctrine is in? note "IMMORTAL" means, the ability to live forever; eternal life. and Jesus the Christ is the ONLY ONE who have it. now don't argue with me, argue with the scripture, which are holy and God breathed.....

so how can someone ETERNAL be someone else son? will be looking for your answer.

PICJAG.
No dilemma, if the Son is truly begotten of the unbegotten Father would He not inherit the attributes of the Father, including His immortal nature? While the Father remains as the source "so He has given to the Son to have life in Himself". The same life as the Father possesses yes? Immortal?
 

bbyrd009

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Too much of a supposedly good thing can be bad or...?
Well i guess you could prolly overdo even oatmeal, dunno--you can def overdo kale-- but my point was more about the doing things out of habit, by rote, on autopilot. These are signs of Death imo. I know this sounds weird, and i don't mean that it couldn't be taken to an extreme as well, but it's good to mix things up i think.

I could tell a story about ppl who work really hard to establish Good habits, that jam in all the things a person supposedly needs in a day, along with their bizzy schedules, and the allotted free time at some #time and the going to bed at some other # time, and any variation whacks them out, and ya know what these people are, that I'm describing? Either Autists or Dead, not sure which.

Personally i recommend a big fat bowl of what is it first thing inna morning, and don't eat til God feeds you, myself. I mean literally don't eat until someone hands you some food, that will be your next meal, no matter when it is.

Haven't had the stones to do the blindfold thing yet--which btw I meant "with no guide at all, and don't be asking anyone for squat, unless you are not at home" kinda thing btw--but this one I've done, and you know what? It's painful in a weird way that is instructive. Think a dog trips on his next meal? A little kid? After we teach them to, maybe, ya
The last time I looked into it one can or glass of beer was supposed to be good for you. I remember when my wife was pregnant with our first child she had an old Dutch obstetrician who advised her to drink one can of beer daily during her pregnancy to improve the quality of her milk. I've read anything about it one way or the other but she took his advice; the baby loved the milk and was healthy. Hmmm?
Ha well flies in the face of "zero alcohol during pregnancy," i'm not a big fan of alcohol anyway myself, but not a teetotaler either. I guess millions of pregnant women drank nothing but beer once upon a time in the Leiderhosen or whatever, my ancestors, guess many still do. And I bet they don't have their next 20 meals planned, or freaky autistic kids much, either. So i say go for it lol
I guess we have a communication problem again. Perhaps God in that sense doesn't really "like" or "dislike" but some things will move us toward Him while others will move us away
That i am more comfortable with, ya
That the word "like" may not real communicate God's position, it might be difficult to express it correctly in some other way so that people will understand our meaning.
ya...imo we got on this "persons in God" baloney the same way, bc saying "Beings" a la "I AM" was just a bit too difficult? Lol
For me there are effectively two directions a person can choose to go, with God or away from God, although actually that may not be a correct description but how else can we communicate our meaning to another person? Jesus used the expression 'God or mammon' as I did in hopes of getting my point across... but still there will always be questions in the minds of some even if unspoken.
Well, good point i guess. Mammon certainly is likely the most popular god.
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwel
"gods." Any clue why antediluvian and Amorite were chosen there? Hmm
 
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bbyrd009

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Slightly unrelated but something came to mind here regarding one of my former pastors. I was working for him helping him to fix up houses for resale [flipping?] when that wasn't such common thing as it seems to be today. When we were cleaning the "garbage" out of the house certain types of things could not be put out with the regular trash which the city garbage trucks routinely picked a couple of times a week. For those items city ordinances required that a special call be made for an extraordinary pick up which would of course cost extra money. He had learned to save money by slipping the garbage men a few dollars [much less than the city would charge] to put in their pocket so that they would take the disallowed materials along with the allowed ones at no extra charge by the city. The collectors and my pastor of course both did OK with this arrangement. Not all garbage as you understand is the same but with a properly placed bribe it may all be treated the same. What kind of "sin" were they swimming in? Was that a sin and if so would it be venal or mortal?
well if i had to guess i would say both lol, venal for the workers and mortal for the Priest
 

bbyrd009

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Usually "clear evidence" seems to do little more than… "indicate" or "suggest." (Unless you have already decided that it HAS to be "clear evidence.")
Word. "I have proof" and "it's a fact" are the rantings of fools and idiots imo. I have proof!
Lol, pls. If you don't know to run from such you get what you got coming imo.
 

bbyrd009

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like how did the Father "beget" a Son...for me that He did, is enough for now
sounds like maybe Jesus died for your sins, as far as you are still concerned bl. Which i have no probs with, ok, except that it is not true. When you're ready to face it, lemme know ok. Hang on to your Mithraist desires and hopes as long as you need to imo, Scripture will be there waiting I guess.
Pick up your cross and follow
I said "you are elohim"

g'nite bro
 
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brakelite

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sounds like maybe Jesus died for your sins, as far as you are still concerned bl. Which i have no probs with, ok, except that it is not true. When you're ready to face it, lemme know ok. Hang on to your Mithraist desires and hopes as long as you need to imo, Scripture will be there waiting I guess.
Pick up your cross and follow
I said "you are elohim"

g'nite bro
He died because I sinned, and only divine intervention could justly free me from incurring the death penalty.