Tzitzit and Tallit, the Command to Wear a Four Cornered Garment with Fringes

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justbyfaith

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To be fair, the passage says , depart from me, you that word "ten anomian", the lawlessness.

Just the same, we though we are not under Torah, we are not lawless, being under the Law of Christ.

Much love!
I believe the same statement is made elsewhere and the word for iniquity in that statement is the Greek word adikio.
 

marks

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I believe the same statement is made elsewhere and the word for iniquity in that statement is the Greek word adikio.
How about Luke 13:27, workers of unrighteousness.

So then both words are used.

Much love!
 

justbyfaith

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Gal 3:22, But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23, But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24, Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25, But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

The fact of the matter @cgneustar, is that you are a sinner and do not keep the law perfectly.

Salvation does not come through keeping the law. The devil would throw that out there as an alternate method, but it will never work, or serve to bring salvation to its adherents. You must keep the law perfectly from conception into eternity if you are going to be saved that way, Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48. And no one has done that, for the scripture has concluded all to be under sin, see also Romans 3:23.

Jhn 14:6, Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jhn 10:9, I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Rom 5:1, Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2, By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Salvation comes through simple faith in Jesus Christ.

Jhn 6:47, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

It does not come through law-keeping.

Gal 2:16, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Rom 3:20, Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Now Christ will begin to sanctify us when we come to Him; by changing us from the inside out (not from the outside in).

The fact is, we are justified through faith in Christ before we ever get to the point of being entirely sanctified (if we could ever come to that point).

If you take a wild look at Acts 15, I think that you will see that some of the Pharisees who believed tried to impose every aspect of the law on the Gentile converts who were coming in; and the ruling of the early church, guided by the Holy Spirit, was to show forth the understanding that these gentile converts were saved through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ; and that the Lord had made no difference between the Jewish converts and them, purifying their hearts by faith; even apart from all of the outward legal requirements of the OT.

The fact of the matter is, the OT law is fulfilled by the love of the Lord shed abroad in the heart of the Christian (Romans 5:5, Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, Matthew 22:36-40, Romans 8:4).

The spirit of the law is written on the hearts and minds of those under the New Covenant through this love. See also Romans 7:6.

Why then do I need tzitzit and tallit, of which this is the fulfillment?

But it should be clear from Hebrews 8:13 that the old covenant is old and ready to vanish away (though the devil might try to bring it back to life in order to put people in bondage to the letter, which kills; while the Spirit gives life...2 Corinthians 3:6)
 
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cgneustar

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To be fair, the passage says , depart from me, you that word "ten anomian", the lawlessness.

Just the same, we though we are not under Torah, we are not lawless, being under the Law of Christ.

Much love!

The Torah of the Messiah is based on the Torah of Moses. If you reject the Torah of Moses, you also reject the Torah of the Messiah. They are one.
 

marks

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The Torah of the Messiah is based on the Torah of Moses. If you reject the Torah of Moses, you also reject the Torah of the Messiah. They are one.

I reject nothing in Scripture.

The Law of Christ is from Christ. The Law of Moses is from Christ. But they are not the same, anymore than not stealing is the same as giving to another.

Much love!
 

cgneustar

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Gal 3:22, But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23, But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24, Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25, But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

The fact of the matter @cgneustar, is that you are a sinner and do not keep the law perfectly.

Salvation does not come through keeping the law. The devil would throw that out there as an alternate method, but it will never work, or serve to bring salvation to its adherents. You must keep the law perfectly from conception into eternity if you are going to be saved that way, Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48. And no one has done that, for the scripture has concluded all to be under sin, see also Romans 3:23.

Jhn 14:6, Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jhn 10:9, I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Rom 5:1, Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2, By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Salvation comes through simple faith in Jesus Christ.

Jhn 6:47, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

It does not come through law-keeping.

Gal 2:16, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Rom 3:20, Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Now Christ will begin to sanctify us when we come to Him; by changing us from the inside out (not from the outside in).

The fact is, we are justified through faith in Christ before we ever get to the point of being entirely sanctified (if we could ever come to that point).

If you take a wild look at Acts 15, I think that you will see that some of the Pharisees who believed tried to impose every aspect of the law on the Gentile converts who were coming in; and the ruling of the early church, guided by the Holy Spirit, was to show forth the understanding that these gentile converts were saved through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ; and that the Lord had made no difference between the Jewish converts and them, purifying their hearts by faith; even apart from all of the outward legal requirements of the OT.

The fact of the matter is, the OT law is fulfilled by the love of the Lord shed abroad in the heart of the Christian (Romans 5:5, Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, Matthew 22:36-40, Romans 8:4).

The spirit of the law is written on the hearts and minds of those under the New Covenant through this love. See also Romans 7:6.

But it should be clear from Hebrews 8:13 that the old covenant is old and ready to vanish away (though the devil might try to bring it back to life in order to put people in bondage to the letter, which kills; while the Spirit gives life...2 Corinthians 3:6)

Mere belief does not deliver, obedience is also required, for if obedience was not also required, Paul would not have said, "adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of God", which is a clear statement that demonstrates that deliverance is indeed contingent upon not committing the sin of adultery, which would thus make you an adulterer. And where does it say not to commit in adultery? In the Law of God, that you say is not required to be obeyed, which commands, "you shall not commit adultery". And adultery is just one out of many commands in that Law. This is not difficult to understand, if of course you haven't deceived yourself into believing lies that the Torah is done away with, let alone that you are not required to obey. Dumb people you are.
 

cgneustar

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I reject nothing in Scripture.

The Law of Christ is from Christ. The Law of Moses is from Christ. But they are not the same, anymore than not stealing is the same as giving to another.

Much love!

You compare the Torah of Moses and the Torah of the Messiah to stealing versus giving to another? You know nothing.
 

justbyfaith

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Mere belief does not deliver, obedience is also required,
What I am saying is, you are not obedient. No one is.

You are still hashing out attempting to earn your own righteousness before the Lord. I suggest that you read the following very carefully, and also think often on what it means for you:

Rom 9:30, What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31, But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32, Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33, As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:1, Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2, For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3, For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4, For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Rom 10:5, For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Rom 10:6, But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above: )
Rom 10:7, Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8, But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10, For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11, For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12, For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
 
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cgneustar

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What I am saying is, you are not obedient. No one is.

You are still hashing out attempting to earn your own righteousness before the Lord. I suggest that you read the following very carefully, and also think often on what it means for you:

Rom 9:30, What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31, But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32, Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33, As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:1, Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2, For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3, For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4, For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Rom 10:5, For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Rom 10:6, But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
Rom 10:7, Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8, But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10, For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11, For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12, For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

No, we have all disobeyed in the past, and either we can continue disobeying, or we can begin obeying, hence "repentance" and "sin no more". Obeying is not a matter of earning deliverance, because we have all disobeyed already and deserve to die, it is a matter of seeking mercy, through belief and also obedience from now and going forward, but if you merely believe, and continue disobeying, you will only reap death as if you never believed, because you continued disobeying. There has to be a point in your life where you actually stop sinning.
 

justbyfaith

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Oh really? Give us an example of this.
Just read the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew chapters 5-7) and the Sermon on the Plain (Luke 6:20-49), and you should see a few of the instances in which this is done.

I have also heard that world religions have a negative rendering of the Golden Rule, "Do unto others as they do unto you." or "Do not do unto others as you would not have them do unto you."

But Jesus, in His teaching, makes it positive, i.e. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

That is, not just the negative, "Don't steal from your neighbor" but the positive, "Give to your neighbor when he is in need."

See what it says in James 4:17.
 

justbyfaith

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No, we have all disobeyed in the past, and either we can continue disobeying, or we can begin obeying, hence "repentance" and "sin no more". Obeying is not a matter of earning deliverance, because we have all disobeyed already and deserve to die, it is a matter of seeking mercy, through belief and also obedience from now and going forward, but if you merely believe, and continue disobeying, you will only reap death as if you never believed, because you continued disobeying. There has to be a point in your life where you actually stop sinning.
All have sinned and (present tense) come short of the glory of God.

The scripture hath concluded all under sin.

Here's another one:

Gal 6:13, For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

1Jo 3:4, Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

You don't keep the law; therefore you are a trangressor of the law; therefore you are a sinner.

Gal 3:22, But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

You are a sinner in need of a Saviour. You cannot save yourself by keeping the law. Only Christ can save you.
 

cgneustar

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All have sinned and (present tense) come short of the glory of God.

The scripture hath concluded all under sin.

Here's another one:

Gal 6:13, For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

1Jo 3:4, Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

You don't keep the law; therefore you are a trangressor of the law; therefore you are a sinner.

Gal 3:22, But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

You are a sinner in need of a Saviour. You cannot save yourself by keeping the law. Only Christ can save you.

If it were impossible to stop sinning, the scripture would not then say, "he who is born of God cannot sin" and "you have been set free from sin". The Messiah came not to justify our continual lawlessness, but to perfect us, through his blood, which the blood of animales was never able to do.
 

justbyfaith

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The thing being touted here is in all reality a substituting of wearing tzitzit and tallit and tefilin in place of circumcision. Galatians 6:13 succinctly applies to the whole situation.
 

cgneustar

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Just read the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew chapters 5-7) and the Sermon on the Plain (Luke 6:20-49), and you should see a few of the instances in which this is done.

I have also heard that world religions have a negative rendering of the Golden Rule, "Do unto others as they do unto you." or "Do not do unto others as you would not have them do unto you."

But Jesus, in His teaching, makes it positive, i.e. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

That is, not just the negative, "Don't steal from your neighbor" but the positive, "Give to your neighbor when he is in need."

See what it says in James 4:17.

Tell me, when the Messiah returns, do you suppose he comes to bring wrath, or he comes to bring mercy?
 

justbyfaith

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I suppose that the sign that we are truly born again would be to walk around wearing a box on our head and tassles hanging off of our garment.

Being born again is an inward work of the Holy Spirit; and without that taking place in your heart, wearing tzitzit, tallit, and tefilin will avail you nothing.

And also, God does this work in the hearts of people who are not wearing tzizit, tallit, and tefilin; which indicates that it is not a requirement for salvation.

(that I even have to say this blows me away; it should be a known reality!)
 
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justbyfaith

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Tell me, when the Messiah returns, do you suppose he comes to bring wrath, or he comes to bring mercy?
Mercy to the saints, wrath on the unbelieving, Christ-rejecting world.

When he returns, everyone will have made a final decision concerning Christ. And therefore those who reject Him will be worthy of wrath.

But now we are in the age of grace; and God is extending his hand of mercy to all, not desiring that any should perish, but that all should come tom repentance.
 

cgneustar

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I suppose that the sign that we are truly born again would be to walk around wearing a box on our head and tassles hanging off of our garment.

Being born again is an inward work of the Holy Spirit; and without that taking place in your heart, wearing tzitzit, tallit, and tefilin will avail you nothing.

The Messiah said, "by their fruits you will know them". What fruit? Their actions. Those who obey the commands of God can be readily seen, and will grow their beards and wear tallit and tefillin, whereas those who disobey will refuse to obey these simple commands of God, and much worse.