Missing Scripture

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Enoch111

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From what I’ve read, many scholars think the writers of the NT quoted from the LXX. Put that in the FWIW file.
And it is not worth much, since the writers of the NT were all Palestinian Jews using the Hebrew Scripture. So were the scribes and the Pharisees. They did not need a corrupted Greek translation as shown below.

Septuagint Errors and Question of its Inspiration


In 1886, Alfred Edersheim wrote The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah. This was a highly scholarly work by a devout Christian gentleman.

He explained the background on the translation of the Hebrew Bible into Greek in what we know as the Septuagint Bible. He claims that all we reliably know about it origin is that it was commissioned under the reign of a particular Pharoah in Egypt around at least 247 BC. The contention that it was done by 6 translators for each of the 12 tribes, totaling 72, is contained in a spurious letter, Edersheim thus implying that is not reliable truth. (The Life and Times of Jesus, supra, at 25.)

Next, Edersheim explains that the Septuagint was not divided as the original Hebrew Bible.
The Original Testament is divided into the law, prophets and writings. [Note: Jesus Himself held this to be authoritative] Instead, the Septuagint was divided into 3 different compartments called the historical, prophetical, and poetical.

Next, the Septuagint also had a loose view of inspiration because it even admitted the Apocrypha into this Greek Bible. Edersheim then begins to identify quality issues, pointing out that that "it differs in almost innumerable instances from our own," i.e. , the Hebrew Bible. (The Life and Times of Jesus, supra, at page 27.)

In terms of the quality of the translation, Edersheim explains that it is clear that the Septuagint "is inferior" and sides in favor of a "slavish and false literalism," while "there is great Liberty, if not license, in handling the original text." And Edersheim adds that "gross mistakes occur along with happy renderings of very difficult passages....." (The Life and Times of Jesus, supra, at page 27.) These are often "unsatisfactory."

At times there are adaptations to Greek philosophical ideas. For example "even Siegfried is obliged to admit that the rendering in Genesis 1:2 bears undeniable marks of Grecian philosophical views." (Life and Times of Jesus, supra, at page 28 note 1.)

Then Edersheim continues, saying that "difficulties - or what seems such - are removed by the most bold method, and by free handling of the text," and does so "often very unsatisfactorily." (Life and Times of Jesus, supra, at 28.)

Edersheim adds that the Septuagint translation became regarded as inspired by the Jews living in the Greek speaking world. Then Edersheim comments:

"Only that we must not regard their views of inspiration - except as applying to Moses, and even there only partially - is identical with ours. To their minds inspiration differed quantitatively, not qualitatively, from what the rapt soul might at any time experience, so the heathen Philosopher may ultimately be regarding as at times inspired." (Life and Times of Jesus, supra, at page 29.)

Finally, on the issue of accuracy, Edersheim says that despite this high early regard, "later voices in the synagogue declared this version to have been as great a calamity to Israel as the making of the golden calf." (Life and Times of Messiah, supra, page 30.)

Septuagint Errors and Question of is inspiration
 

Enoch111

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read that verse again, aind see who is "my God" ........ it's me, JESUS
You continue to promote your HERESIES here, even though almost everyone has shown you the error of your ways.
 

Deborah_

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That which appears in the New Testament . . .

Hebrews 1 (KJV)
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Does not appear in the Old Testament . . .

Deuteronomy 32 (KJV)
42 I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.
43 Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

. . . except in the Septuagint.

Deuteronomy 32 (LXX)
42 I will make my weapons drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh, with the blood of the wounded, and from the captivity of the heads of enemies that rule over them.
43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people.

Any particulary reason?

Much love!

The writers of the New Testament used the Septuagint when quoting Scripture. This seems pretty well undeniable. And it was, after all, the ONLY Greek version of the Old Testament available, and the version that the Gentile churches (the recipients of most of the letters and gospels) were familiar with.

From which I think we can deduce that God is less 'hung up' over the details of translation into another language than some of us are. (No translation can ever be 100% accurate, because of the differences between languages).

The fact that the edition of the Septuagint we know also "contains" the Apocrypha is irrelevant to its authority. In the first century, Bibles didn't come as single books - they were collections of scrolls. More like a library, in fact. And it wouldn't be unusual for a Greek-speaking Jew to have in his 'library' both inspired and un-inspired literature.
 
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Enoch111

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The writers of the New Testament used the Septuagint when quoting Scripture.
How about "the Holy Spirit used the Tanakh to provide the NT writers with their OT quotations"?

1. "All the Scriptures" = "Moses and all the prophets"
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he [Christ] expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. (Lk 24:27)

2. "All the Scriptures" = The Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms
And he [Christ] said unto them [the apostles], These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in [1] the law of Moses, and [2] in the prophets, and [3] in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures...(Lk 24:44,45)

Jesus taught His apostles here ("opened their understanding") that everything written in the Hebrew Tanakh pointed to Him. And He limited "all the Scriptures" to just the 24 books of the Hebrew Bible (which means that the Septuagint with 50+ books was ignored).

THE LAW (Torah or Moses) -- Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy (5 books)

THE PROPHETS (Neviim) -- Joshua, Judges, Samuel (1 book), Kings (1 book), Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, The Twelve (Minor Prophets from Hosea to Malachi) (8 books)

THE PSALMS OR WRITINGS (Ketuvim) -- Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Song of Songs, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Daniel, Ezra-Nehemiah (1 book), Chronicles (1 book) (11 books).

How easily do Christians forget that the Holy Spirit is the Author of the Bible, and the writers were merely scribes.
 

bbyrd009

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I think I do understand. And we have a very very different regard for the Bible.

And it seems to me that when you say "foundation", you mean just the starting point. And in fact you regard your personal revelations more highly than the Bible, is that not true?

Much love!
Ha I guess we all do, whether we choose to admit that or not?
 
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bbyrd009

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Provide for your family
Don't work for food
A man's enemies will be those of his own household
Wherein "heart poked" is certainly touching, but irrelevant to our point.
 

Earburner

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That which appears in the New Testament . . .

Hebrews 1 (KJV)
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Does not appear in the Old Testament . . .

Deuteronomy 32 (KJV)
42 I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.
43 Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

. . . except in the Septuagint.

Deuteronomy 32 (LXX)
42 I will make my weapons drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh, with the blood of the wounded, and from the captivity of the heads of enemies that rule over them.
43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people.

Any particulary reason?

Much love!
Any particulary reason?
Yes! It's called the Tares were sown among the Wheat, by satan. They ARE in our churches, and usually are in high positions of the churches.
 

101G

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You continue to promote your HERESIES here, even though almost everyone has shown you the error of your ways.
well if it heresies then reprove me, but you cain't. still trying to stall to see if you can find the answer to the Revelation question as to who is sitting on the throne? if you would have known you would have been answered. .... :)

see, that's what separate truth from lie, the unknown. you don't KNOW who sits on the throne, nor who is the Lamb that is standing. just that simple.

and since you don't know it easy for you to call another a promoter of Hersies, when in fact it's you who are in a hersry and don't even know it. and because you're without KNOWLEDGE nor UNDERSTANDING that's why you make these foolish statements.

now you can prove me wrong, just answer the question, who sits on the throne in revelation 4 &5 and who is standing as the Lamb in chapter 5. it's just that simple. will be looking for your answer .... :p

PICJAG.
 

Deborah_

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How about "the Holy Spirit used the Tanakh to provide the NT writers with their OT quotations"?

OK, to be more exact, the Holy Spirit inspired the apostles to use the Septuagint translation of the Tanakh for their OT quotes.
 

Stranger

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The Septuagint is a great study itself. I got into a debate several years ago concerning it. I don't know if it was here or on another forum. I was thinking here, but could be mistaken.

My conclusion is that there is no Septuagint. What we are calling the Septuagint is nothing but Origins translation of the Old Testament. That is the conclusion, but it takes a long study to get there.

Stranger
 

marks

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No, not exactly. That defense would have wrongly justified the Pharisees, the Leaders of Israel, and the Lawyers.

You speak of "the Book", but I also speak of "the Books." And just like those who accused Christ of being of the devil, they too did not know that the kingdom had come upon them...which I am not announcing, but claiming as having been announced already.

The conflict is in you, and in those who see but do not perceive, and hear but do not understand.
This then would answer some things. You have more than the Bible. What other books do you look to?

Much love!
 

marks

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well if it heresies then reprove me, but you cain't. still trying to stall to see if you can find the answer to the Revelation question as to who is sitting on the throne? if you would have known you would have been answered. .... :)

see, that's what separate truth from lie, the unknown. you don't KNOW who sits on the throne, nor who is the Lamb that is standing. just that simple.

and since you don't know it easy for you to call another a promoter of Hersies, when in fact it's you who are in a hersry and don't even know it. and because you're without KNOWLEDGE nor UNDERSTANDING that's why you make these foolish statements.

now you can prove me wrong, just answer the question, who sits on the throne in revelation 4 &5 and who is standing as the Lamb in chapter 5. it's just that simple. will be looking for your answer .... :p

PICJAG.
Now 101g, you have your own thread for this . . .

Much love!
 

ScottA

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This then would answer some things. You have more than the Bible. What other books do you look to?

Much love!
Daniel 7:10
"A fiery stream issued And came forth from before Him. A thousand thousands ministered to Him; Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The court was seated, And the books were opened."

Revelation 20:12
"And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books."
 

marks

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Daniel 7:10
"A fiery stream issued And came forth from before Him. A thousand thousands ministered to Him; Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The court was seated, And the books were opened."

Revelation 20:12
"And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books."

So you are sharing your knowledge from these books? Is that what you are saying?
 

ScottA

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So you are sharing your knowledge from these books? Is that what you are saying?
In a word, Yes. But before you jump to conclusions, you referred to this book:

Revelation 5:5
"But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.

Revelation 10:8
"Then the voice which I heard from heaven spoke to me again and said, “Go, take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel who stands on the sea and on the earth.

...This you did as if there was only one book. My answer to you was that there are more [books], and there are. But it is the "little book" that you seem to refer to as if it were not sealed nor unsealed, but plain language. So my answer to you was and has been, that the book was sealed but now is not, which then brings us to the "books" unto "all truth."

Did you not think this day would come?
 

marks

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In a word, Yes. But before you jump to conclusions, you referred to this book:

Revelation 5:5
"But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.

Revelation 10:8
"Then the voice which I heard from heaven spoke to me again and said, “Go, take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel who stands on the sea and on the earth.

...This you did as if there was only one book. My answer to you was that there are more [books], and there are. But it is the "little book" that you seem to refer to as if it were not sealed nor unsealed, but plain language. So my answer to you was and has been, that the book was sealed but now is not, which then brings us to the "books" unto "all truth."

Did you not think this day would come?
So then you are saying you know the contents of the 7-sealed scroll, and the little book in the angel's hand, and this you proclaim to us?

Am I understanding correctly?

Thank you for your patience with me!

Much love!
 

marks

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There are some people I study the Bible with who have a fair amount of understanding of Hebrew. One thing I've noticed is that listening to them talk about some of the "deeper" things they see in the Hebrew it remind me of the proverbial rabbis each with their own interpretation, and each having even more than one interpretation, until there are so many ideas floating around it's hard to know what's what.

I'm sure the native speaker got much more out of it, just the same, that Hebrew is a dead language, and there is no such thing as a native speaker. And there are many many ways it seems to interpret it.

It seems that with the Koine Greek there is much greater specificity in the language. While also a dead language, it is so very much more precise than the Hebrew, again, to the non-native speaker.

Much love!
 

ScottA

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So then you are saying you know the contents of the 7-sealed scroll, and the little book in the angel's hand, and this you proclaim to us?

Am I understanding correctly?

Thank you for your patience with me!

Much love!
I will answer cautiously. Please don't misunderstand.

What I am saying is that what is written is true, that One has prevailed to open the "scroll" and that "little book" which we now refer to as the word of God, and that "all truth" and even "the mind of Christ" is and has been available to us. As for me, I can only do my part, reveal my part. Whether it is small or great, I do not know. But I do know that what is revealed in due season is true, whether from me or whether the stones begin to speak, and thousands of false teachers and prophets change nothing.

But don't look at me or any other as if we do anything but carry our own stone to the wall. We do not. Even a chosen stone is just a stone.