The Torah Has Not Been Abolished

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Heart2Soul

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YOU ARE NOT hearing WHAT the Messiah said!!
John 6[
29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God [Himself], that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.[Who is Jesus, the Messiah].
.
THAT'S IT!!
THAT is all that we must DO, to BE SAVED!!
Nothing more!!
Exactly. The Torah does not redeem us of our sins, it is simply a book of laws that governs a way of life that should be followed. Just like the Bible does not redeem us but teaches us how we can be redeemed.
 

justbyfaith

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The law of God moves from being the requirement for salvation, when we are not in Christ, to being a set of principles on wisdom, once we are in Christ.

Obeying the law of the Lord is something that will make anyone's life better.

For the unbeliever, who thinks that they will enter into heaven on the basis of their own merits, the word explicitly states that he must obey the law of the Lord perfectly from conception into eternity; for there is no forgiveness; and every violation counts as something to be punished.

But for those who will enter into heaven not based on their own merits but on Christ's; the law of God brings no condemnation for the violation of it: but of course if we do not obey it, there may be earthly consequences.

Therefore for the believer, the law of God is a set of wisdom principles, as I said; by which we will be able to live a better life that is generally free of hardship and turmoil.
 

cgneustar

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YOU ARE NOT hearing WHAT the Messiah said!!
John 6[
29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God [Himself], that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.[Who is Jesus, the Messiah].
.
THAT'S IT!!
THAT is all that we must DO, to BE SAVED!!
Nothing more!!

If nothing more had to be done after believing to be delivered, then in would also not also be written, "belief without words is dead". You err in your understanding of the truth, and you are lawless, masquerading under the belief, like a wolf in sheep's clothing. So be it, I've argued enough with you.
 

Heart2Soul

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If nothing more had to be done after believing to be delivered, then in would also not also be written, "belief without words is dead". You err in your understanding of the truth, and you are lawless, masquerading under the belief, like a wolf in sheep's clothing. So be it, I've argued enough with you.
Please give scripture you just quoted...
My bible says faith without works is dead...
Yours says belief without words is dead.
Well nuff said....your a false teacher, false witness and do not not have the truth in your mouth.
 

Kermos

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I recently published a bible study on why the Torah of Moses has not been abolished, why it is still necessary, what the Messiah meant when he said "I came to fulfill the Torah", why the Torah will vanish away once this heaven and earth vanishes away, and finally, if indeed the Torah is still binding, why circumcision of the flesh is no longer required, along with observing the appointed times and Shabbaths of the Torah. The Torah Has Not Been Abolished | Wisdom of God

"'Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine; and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel."
(Exodus 19:5-6)

"YHVH said to Moses, 'Behold, I will come to you in a thick cloud, so that the people may hear when I speak with you and may also believe in you forever.' Then Moses told the words of the people to YHVH."
(Exodus 19:9)

"I am YHVH your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

You shall have no other gods before Me."
(Exodus 20:2-3)

"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy."
(Exodus 20:8)

"Then he took the book of the covenant and read it in the hearing of the people; and they said, 'All that YHVH has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient!'"
(Exodus 24:7)

"So Moses took the blood and sprinkled it on the people, and said, 'Behold the blood of the covenant, which YHVH has made with you in accordance with all these words.'"
(Exodus 24:8)

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
(John 1:1)

"Jesus said to them, 'If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.'"
(John 8:42)

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to satisfy."
(Matthew 5:17)

"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest."
(Matthew 11:28)

"You will know them by their fruits"
(Matthew 7:16)

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another."
(John 13:34)

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments."
(John 14:15)

"And in the same way [He took] the cup after they had eaten, saying, 'This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.'"
(Luke 22:20)

"When He said, 'A new [covenant],' He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear."
(Hebrews 8:13)

"For the Law, since it has [only] a shadow of the good things to come [and] not the very form of things"
(Hebrews 10:1)

"It is finished!"
(John 19:30)
 

prism

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Torah has not been abolished, just transferred from stone tablets unto new hearts of the redeemed By His Spirit...

2 Corinthians 3:7-8 KJVS
[7] But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: [8] How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

Jeremiah 31:33 KJVS
[33] But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
 

justbyfaith

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If nothing more had to be done after believing to be delivered, then in would also not also be written, "belief without words is dead". You err in your understanding of the truth, and you are lawless, masquerading under the belief, like a wolf in sheep's clothing. So be it, I've argued enough with you.

Rom 4:1, What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2, For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3, For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4, Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6, Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8, Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Faith without works is dead, is to be balanced by the fact that God imputes righteousness without, or apart from, works.

The answer is in that we are justified by faith alone; but that a living faith will transform you as an individual so that it will be second nature to do good works.

If someone receives this transformation and then the Lord takes them home so that they have no opportunity whatsoever to ever do any good works, will they be condemned over the fact that they lacked concerning good works? No, for they received the transformation that we call salvation, it was by faith alone.

But if faith is genuine and salvation is genuine, and they are given a longer life so that they have the opportunity to do good works, the fact that they are truly born again means that they will be inclined to walk in them. They have been given an impartation of the love of God; and that love will motivate them to action. If they do not walk according to love when faced with the opportunity to do so, it would indicate that their conversion was not genuine because love is not in word or in tongue only, but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18).

You can see in these things how both things are true: we are justified by faith apart from works, and faith without works is dead.

It would be a mistake to think that I have to do good works in order to prove my faith and then go about to seek to do good works in order to prove my salvation.

The right attitude would be to receive the free gift of salvation that the Lord offers, freely; knowing that there is no obligation to do anything as a result.

Whenever anyone truly understands the free gift that has been given to them apart from any strings attached, they will desire to do what is pleasing in the Lord's sight, out of thankfulness and gratitude. There is absolutely no obligation attached to the free gift that the Lord offers us. The good works that we do as the result of being saved are all on a free-will basis, we do not do them out of obligation but out of genuine love for the Lord; because we love Him for that He went to the Cross on our behalf, taking the penalty for our sins.
 

Lady Crosstalk

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This is a lie, for the autumn appointed times of the Torah were not fulfilled in his first coming, which is why he comes with the sound of trumpets, to fulfill the appointed time of the trumpets of the Torah. Why is this so difficult to understand? Because you people are eager to discard the Torah, because you hate it.

I wouldn't say that they hate it exactly--it is that they don't understand it or its purpose. They are also victims of bad teaching--starting with the Roman Catholic church's teaching that the Church has replaced Israel. Romans 11 stands in contradiction to what "Earburner" has said but he apparently can not see it.
 

Lady Crosstalk

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Justification by obedience to the Torah alone is useless if you have no belief in Yeshuah, both are required, yet unlike the Pharisees, who were obedient to the Torah, yet lacked belief in Yeshuah, you people are the other extreme, you have belief in Yeshuah, yet you refuse to obey the Torah, which is lawlessness, and because of this is why your condemnation will be worse than that of the Jews who believe as the Pharisees did, because they will merely be cast out of Jerusalem and trampled, whereas you people will endure the rage of God with seven plagues after they are trampled, and then be thrown into hot lava after you suffer through the full cup of the wrath of God, because of your lawlessness that masquerades under the belief you claim to have.

It depends on what you mean by "lawlessness". Gentile believers are not under the ceremonial law or other regulations--that was settled by the Jerusalem council. But Yeshua confirmed that we are under the summary of the law contained in the command to love God and each other.

The identity of Israel is wrapped up in the observance of Torah, that is true. It is also true that salvation cannot come from simply obeying Torah--that, since Messiah has come, there must be belief in Messiah or Torah observance is worthless. Yahweh still has a plan for Israel--that is clear from any reading of both the Tanakh and the Brit Chadashah.
 

cgneustar

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I wouldn't say that they hate it exactly--it is that they don't understand it or its purpose. They are also victims of bad teaching--starting with the Roman Catholic church's teaching that the Church has replaced Israel. Romans 11 stands in contradiction to what "Earburner" has said but he apparently can not see it.

It truly saddens me that these people do not see the truth. They think I am arguing and nagging them because I am trying to condemn them, when in fact I am trying to do the opposite, to bring deliverance to them, with the truth, that the Torah has not been abolished. But so be it, let them continue pursuing the lies they want to believe in, that will ultimately bring their destruction because of stubbornness and refusal to believe and obey.
 

cgneustar

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It depends on what you mean by "lawlessness". Gentile believers are not under the ceremonial law or other regulations--that was settled by the Jerusalem council. But Yeshua confirmed that we are under the summary of the law contained in the command to love God and each other.

The identity of Israel is wrapped up in the observance of Torah, that is true. It is also true that salvation cannot come from simply obeying Torah--that, since Messiah has come, there must be belief in Messiah or Torah observance is worthless. Yahweh still has a plan for Israel--that is clear from any reading of both the Tanakh and the Brit Chadashah.

The shadows of the Torah are no longer required under the new covenant. All other commands are still binding, such as head coverings for wives, tefillin, mezuzah, tallit and tzitzit, a man shall not wear women's garments, and much more.
 

Lady Crosstalk

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The shadows of the Torah are no longer required under the new covenant. All other commands are still binding, such as head coverings for wives, tefillin, mezuzah, tallit and tzitzit, a man shall not wear women's garments, and much more.

Yes, I believe they are still required of Israel but they are not required of Gentile believers. Because we have the indwelling presence of the Ruach Ha Kodesh, we have His advice at all times. Here's an example of how that works in a population of new believers: Even though there was a strict code of how women should dress under Torah, the Apostle Paul said merely that women in the churches should be modestly attired. In today's world, the same applies:

A missionary acquaintance said that when he first arrived in a village of an African nation, it was the habit of many of the women to go about unclothed from the waist up. As they became believers and were baptized, he and his wife noticed that they began to cover their upper bodies--without anyone having to tell them to cover up.
 
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cgneustar

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Yes, I believe they are still required of Israel but they are not required of Gentile believers.

This is where you err, because it is written, "there is only one Torah for the native and for the foreigner". Yet even so, the "grafting in" of the Gentiles, who were once foreigners of the promises of Abraham means to be "grafted in" into the citizenship of Israel, for Israel is the cultivated olive tree, and thus, the inclusion of the Gentiles into the citizenship of Israel also implies requirement to obey the Torah of Moses as if they were native born citizens of Israel. Even though you are slightly closer to the truth than the others regarding the necessity to obey the Torah, I still perceive much lack of understanding in you, leading you to become all the same torahless just as they.
 

Lady Crosstalk

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This is where you err, because it is written, "there is only one Torah for the native and for the foreigner". Yet even so, the "grafting in" of the Gentiles, who were once foreigners of the promises of Abraham means to be "grafted in" into the citizenship of Israel, for Israel is the cultivated olive tree, and thus, the inclusion of the Gentiles into the citizenship of Israel also implies requirement to obey the Torah of Moses as if they were native born citizens of Israel. Even though you are slightly closer to the truth than the others regarding the necessity to obey the Torah, I still perceive much lack of understanding in you, leading you to become all the same torahless just as they.

Please read Acts 15. You are repeating the error of the Judaizers.
 

bbyrd009

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snoop-lookalikes_3553322k_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqqVzuuqpFlyLIwiB6NTmJwfSVWeZ_vEN7c6bHu2jJnT8.jpg
(its like thisss,
and like that, and like
thisandlikethatandlike thissss...)
glad yall are getting along so well though, warms my cockles :)
 

Earburner

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1. Because under the 1,000 year rulership sinners will still exist, and in that time those who teach that the least of the commands of the Torah do not need to obeyed will be called least in the kingdom of the Messiah, hence,

2. No more shall there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not fill out his days, for the young man shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed.
Isaiah 65:20

3. So if those who teach that the least of the commands of the Torah do not need to obeyed, where does that leave you people teaching that the entire Torah is discarded?
4. I will give you a clue, "depart from me, you workers of torahlessness".
1. During the time, of when Jesus the Messiah first appeared, He spoke more of those things that are NOW and up to the EVENT, of Him returning in the fullness of His Glory.
Apart from the misinterpreted words by many of Revelations, where else in the NT scriptures does Jesus speak of " a thousand years"?
2. Since the Day of Pentecost, after Jesus' Ascension into Heaven, faith in Him is the ONLY name given by God, to all people by which they can be saved! That means His Name is above the name of the Torah.
Isa. 65:20, must be read according to God's understanding, not ours. Isa. 55:8-9.
In God's mind, ever since the death and resurrection of His Son, there are only two types of people in THIS world, those who remain to be condemned already, because of unbelief, and those who are not condemned, through faith in Christ. John 3:18
If nothing more had to be done after believing to be delivered, then in would also not also be written, "belief without words is dead". You err in your understanding of the truth, and you are lawless, masquerading under the belief, like a wolf in sheep's clothing. So be it, I've argued enough with

Thats a two way street, because works without faith is dead also!
Keeping in line with the context of James, as to the type of "works" he expressed:
It's not a matter of which "formula" is correct, but rather understanding the origin of one's "faith", and also the origin of one's "works".
.
So which is the motivator for our salvation in Jesus?
1. I believe and do good works to be saved.
2. I believe I am saved, therefore I do good works.
.
The motivator is how we perceive God's Salvation.
Should I go about earning it, through faith
or should I receive it as His free Gift, through faith?
.
Both belief systems are through belief/faith, but only one is acceptable to God.
 

bbyrd009

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...and like that and like this and
like that...

oh, no happy feet am edition!
dog always gets up to this one lol
starts lolling his tongue ha
me too
lets all do some paint by numbers real quick
getcha movin
dang now i gotta go clean somethin lol
aight yall have a good day ok
and lissen to yoursefs ok ha
nod less, shake more :)
 
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bbyrd009

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now yall maybe do yourselves a favor and lissen just a little before you say any more ok. plus you get to dance and everything :)
ha fido is bouncing off the walls herenow lol
doing that tearing around the house thing
 

cgneustar

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Please read Acts 15. You are repeating the error of the Judaizers.

It is you who needs to reread Acts 15, for the council of Jerusalem did not negate the truth that the Torah still needs to be obeyed, which is why they said, "for Moses has been proclaimed in every city from ancient times and is read in the synagogues", but the reason they only repeated certain specific aspects of the Torah is because those were matters of the Torah that the Gentiles then commonly disobeyed, so rather than burden them with reading them the entire Torah again that they already heard, they only reminded them of what was important for them to know right away regarding the Torah,

It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not cause trouble for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead, we should write and tell them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals, and from blood.
For Moses has been proclaimed in every city from ancient times and is read in the synagogues on every Shabbath.
Acts 15:19-21