Tribulation saints

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101G

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Someone who is alive on earth and not in heaven, who is Justified by God and is sanctify in Christ, who is persecuted in their day.
which means we're using this word as, or in the present form of G40 ἅγιος hagios (ha'-ǰiy-os), "SAINT", which is an "adjective", and not as G3144 μάρτυς martus (mar'-tïs) which is a Noun.

PICJAG
 
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Davy

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The phrase "tribulation saint" is a moniker dreamed up by those on a pre-trib rapture theory. It's not just about the meaning of the word 'saint'. It's about pre-trib's false idea that some of the unbelieving Jews that are so-called "left-behind" (man's words) will come to believe on Jesus during... the coming great tribulation, and thus "tribulation saints". But the whole idea is a total fabrication, and is not supported anywhere in God's Word. It is just another falsehood created by the pre-trib rapture school to try and help support their rapture theories.
 
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101G

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true, A dead saint G3144 μάρτυς martus (mar'-tïs) which “was” a witness during trouble times. Was an alive Saint G40 ἅγιος hagios (ha'-ǰiy-os), "SAINT" that “is” a witness that is alive for the Lord Jesus the Christ.
Revelation 1:9 "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ”.

2 Corinthians 4:6 "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 4:7 "But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
2 Corinthians 4:8 "[We are] troubled on every side, yet not distressed; [we are] perplexed, but not in despair;
2 Corinthians 4:9 "Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;

Trouble: G2346 θλίβω thlibo (thliy'-ɓō) v.
1. to compress.
2. to squeeze.
3. to press hard.
4. (passively) to be hard pressed.
5. to pinch.
6. (figuratively) to press in against, to crush (in a crowd).
{literally or figuratively}
[akin to the base of G5147]
KJV: afflict, narrow, throng, suffer tribulation, trouble
See also: G5147

tribulationis just another word for trouble.

ALIVE SAINTS
Acts 9:32 "And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all [quarters], he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda.

Paul then Saul, locked Christian/Saints
Acts 26:10 "Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against [them].


DEAD SAINTS
Hebrews 12:1 "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us”. read Gill’s commentary on this.

PICJAG.
 

Jay Ross

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Those who repent and turn to Jesus during the antichrist reign; this is Jew and Gentile alike.

Perhaps a better response to the question would be: -

The saints who live during the time of the antichrist's reign.
 

Davy

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Those who repent and turn to Jesus during the antichrist reign; this is Jew and Gentile alike.

Though some may come to Christ in that time, that's not who God's Word is pointing to in Matt.24 and Mark 13 as "saints". It is pointing to brethren in Christ today as well, the whole Church, because there is no such thing as a pre-trib rapture anywhere in God's Word. Jesus showed in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 that His coming to gather His Church is AFTER the tribulation. And those Scriptures align with 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17.
 
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Davy

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Something else about how pre-trib's "tribulation saints" idea is false.

In our Lord Jesus' Revelation, we are shown about the idea of God's servants being 'sealed' with His seal, and that the locust army are only allowed to sting those that do not... have God's seal.

God's seal represents the sealing by The Holy Spirit. It is a sealing about understanding the events of the last days leading up to Christ's return, so His faithful saints cannot be deceived. The very first warning for the end our Lord Jesus gave was to not allow any man to deceive us.

Matt 24:21-24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.


24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

KJV


That idea of, "insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect", is showing in that time it will be impossible to deceive Christ's own elect. It will be because they will be sealed with God's seal in the forehead (i.e., in the mind). They will understand that coming Antichrist ('a spurious Messiah' there per the Greek) is a fake Christ, and they will not be deceived.


When the great tribulation starts, the dividing lines will already be in place. Though I believe it may still be possible for the unbelieving to believe on Jesus during that tribulation, God's Word does not really show this. Instead, God's Word reveals that ONLY those sealed with God's seal will not be deceived by that coming Antichrist. Everyone else will be. Thus the "tribulation saints" idea from the pre-trib rapture school is just wishful thinking, and also another way to fool its believers on that doctrine.

 
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Enoch111

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What may I ask is a tribulation saint?
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Rev 20:4)

The Tribulation coincides with the 3 1/2 year reign of the Antichrist. So Tribulation Saints are all those beheaded for their faith during that time. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. (Rev 13:7)
 

Keraz

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The Tribulation coincides with the 3 1/2 year reign of the Antichrist. So Tribulation Saints are all those beheaded for their faith during that time. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. (Rev 13:7)
Your idea that it is only those who come to Christ during the Great Tribulation, is wrong.
The Anti-Christ attacks and conquers the holy people of God, as we see in Daniel 7:23, Revelation 13:7 and in graphic detail, Zechariah 14:1-2.
These prophesies prove that the Church, the people of God, have not been taken off to heaven, but are living in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land, as is so comprehensively prophesied.

The holy people of God, now every faithful Christian, who will be living in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land, Isaiah 62:1-5, do get taken over by the leader of the One World Govt; the Anti-Christ. This will happen at the midpoint of the last 7 years before Jesus Returns and it is because they failed to trust solely on the Lord for their protection.

Daniel 9:27 and Isaiah 28:14-15 tells of a treaty, that God calls; a treaty with death.

We see in Daniel 11:32, how they are divided into 2 groups, those who agreed to this seven year peace treaty with the AC, and those who refused to violate their covenant with God. This conquest and division of the people, at the mid point of the seven years, the final 'week' of Daniels 70 weeks.

Then in Revelation 12:6-17, those two groups of Christians are described; the faithful ones are taken to a place of safety during the 3 1/2 years, [or 42 months or 1260 days] and the other group remain, as seen in Revelation 12:17. also seen in Zechariah 14:2b.

After that; Jesus Returns, destroys the Anti-Christ's army and chains him up. Jesus sends out His angels to gather His people from their place of safety and all who have refused the mark of the beast, Matthew 24:31, to where He is; that is in Jerusalem, from where He will rule the world for 1000 years.
 
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n2thelight

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And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Rev 20:4)

The Tribulation coincides with the 3 1/2 year reign of the Antichrist. So Tribulation Saints are all those beheaded for their faith during that time. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. (Rev 13:7)

Can't agree,however why were they not raptured?Also those who die during this time will be killed by those who think they are doing God a favor,they didn't get saved during the tribulation ,they were saved before.


Chapter 20 of the Book of Revelation covers the first days of the Millennium, when Jesus Christ comes to earth to establish His kingdom. This chapter runs close to the prophecies of Ezekiel in the last eight (8) chapters of the book of Ezekiel. "Millennium" means "1,000 years". This period is basically a 1,000 years of teaching and learning.

Jesus Christ will be with us here on earth in His kingdom then. There will be teaching and discipline, and many people saved in this Millennium period. Most of the people saved today will not be reigning with Christ in the Millennium, because they will throw their inheritance away very soon, when they choose to go whoring after the Antichrist. Some of these people are the ones who believe in the rapture theory. They will chase after the first messiah that appears on earth and not be part of the wedding between Christ and His bride (the church) at the sounding of the seventh trump.

Those who fall into the trap of the rapture theory doctrine can repent and be saved in the Millennium age, when their sins of following the Antichrist are committed in ignorance. You can even look at the Millennium kingdom as the "time of salvation", for many will accept and follow Christ in the Millennium. However the period of grace is for this age of the flesh only, for in the Millennium age salvation will be by their works only as we will see in this chapter. Due to the great apostasy there will be more saved out of the Millennium, than during any other period of time.

Revelation 20:1 "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand."

When Satan has completed his five month reign here on earth, the battles of Armageddon and Hamongog have already taken place. Jesus Christ is returning with His army to earth, and this army are those saints that are already with Him. Those saints that died and went to be with Him as recorded in Ecclesiastes 12:7. Though their bodies were laid in the ground, their souls returned instantly to the Father, and not though a rapture.

On that first day of the Millennium age, both the beast and the false prophet are destroyed. The beast is in two parts, the one world political system that gives way to Satan's one world religious system. These two systems of support will not be brought back to support Satan at the end of the millennium. [See Revelation 19:20 where both of these are destroyed.]

I believe this angel to be Michael, for it's Michael and his angels that control Satan. This chain that Michael will have is a locking, sealing and confining device. Satan will be locked away, and his influence will be totally absent during this time of teaching.

This is why every knee, even the Kenites, will bow to Christ. Satan, their father, will be in the pit and will not be able to influence their thinking.

"Revelation 20:2 "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,"

"The dragon" was Satan's title in the world that was, just as his title of "the Antichrist", or "instead of Christ" is during the last five months of this earth age of the flesh. Dragon is the title he wears as he rules over the ten kings and seven regions or continents. [see Revelation 12 and 13]

The "serpent" was Satan's roll in the Garden of Eden when he "wholly seduced" Eve. Eve bore his offspring Cain, the father of the Kenites. The "Devil" was his title given in Matthew 13:39 as Jesus identified the enemy as the "Devil". Satan will have no influence in this time of teaching.

In Isaiah 14:12-16, Satan is given another name, "Lucifer", which means "morning star" or "bright star". It tells us that people will walk by the pit and see Satan bound and say, "Is this the man that deceived the world?" They will wonder how they could have been so deceived through this earth age into believing Satan to be the true Messiah.

"Revelation 20:3 "And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

When this time of the great deception is on earth, it will be during the five month period of Revelation 9:5,10, and the Antichrist will then deceive all nations and all peoples of the earth except the elect. When the millennium is over, Satan will be released to try to deceive the people all over again, and many will follow him just as they did in this earth age.

Why would God turn Satan loose a short season? Because this will be a time of testing for those claiming to be Christians who were deceived by him in this earth age. After the thousand year testing and teaching, some will still seek after Satan, and they will be gathered by the angels as tares [see Matthew 13] to be burned with him.

Matthew 13:40 "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world."

Matthew 13:41 "The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity:"

Matthew 13:42 "And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

God is a fair and just God, and when all have been taught and tested after their changing into that spiritual body, there will be no mental handicaps or sickness to distort the outcome. Every soul will have a sound mind, and an adequate thinking capacity for observing Jesus Christ in His reign, and Satan in the pit. Then with full understanding, every soul will choose for himself/herself whom they will follow. This not a matter of second chances, because for many in this earth age they did not stand a chance the first time. They have simply not been taught the truth of God's eternal plan.
 

n2thelight

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Revelation 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Judgment is coming for the millions of Christian brothers and sisters who have lost their lives for the witness of Jesus Christ over the past two thousand years. Also receiving rewards are those that have not bowed to the Antichrist in the five month period of deception (coming up shortly), nor did they take his mark through the deception, nor accepted his ways (image) in their minds. If you believe in the rapture theory, you will worship Satan in error. Mark 13 and Matthew 24 makes it clear that the Antichrist will come first. The "rapture theory" teaches that you will be lifted out by the first messiah, and that first (false) messiah is the Antichrist.

Ezekiel 3:8, 9 tells us "our forehead" is our mind. The seal that is in our forehead is what we believe to be true in our minds. The "mark of the beast" is the knowledge you will possess in your mind. What you believe as truth will either cause you to be deceive, or prevent you from being deceived by the first (false) Christ into thinking he is the true messiah.

Revelation 20:5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

If you are saved and make a stand against the Antichrist and his deceptions, you will reign with Christ 1,000 years.

Those who did take the "mark of the beast", their souls will not, I repeat, will not have an eternal spiritual body until they are tested after the millennium. I Corinthians 15:50-52describes the mystery of the two bodies. The physical and spiritual bodies are two separate entities. There are also two spiritual bodies, one eternal, the other perishable (mortal). Those who take the mark of the beast will not have their eternal bodies at the seventh trump. Instead they will have mortal spiritual bodies (liable-to-die), and have to be taught again to learn the difference between 'the holy from the profane' for 1,000 years and then be tested at the end of it to earn that eternal body by choosing Jesus Christ.

What are we talking about when it says "the rest of the dead"? The difference in taking part in the first resurrection or not taking part -- which hinges on whether or not they were deceived by the Antichrist. Remember, John has been taken in the Spirit to the last day before Christ's return. Revelation 20 is talking about that specific day when the last trump sounds, and Jesus Christ our Lord is returning with His saints to the earth. This verse is not addressing those who died 50, 100, or at any time from any century prior to the sounding of the seventh trump. It is addressing the generation (our generation) who will live in the time of the seven seals, and those who will see some take Satan's mark (the mark of the beast) and give service to him.

I Corinthians 15:52 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

The kingdom of God is wherever Jesus Christ is, and flesh and blood cannot exist in that kingdom. When Christ returns for the Millennium age here on earth, flesh and blood bodies will not exist.

I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

This is a mystery that Paul is going to reveal to us that had been hidden until Paul's writing. This mystery concerns what happens at a particular point in time, for at that instant, there will be no more death. "Sleep" as used here, is # 2838 in the Strong's Greek Dictionary; "Koimesis, koy'-may-sis; from 2837, to put to sleep." We read in # 2837; "Koimao, Koy-mah'-o; to put to sleep, to decease, to be dead."

So a time is coming when all the people on the face of the earth will never see death in their flesh bodies again. This is the mystery that Paul is going to tell us; when this event shall take place.

I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

On the first day of the Millennium age, the "Kingdom of Heaven" will be with us on earth. You cannot enter that kingdom age in a flesh body. Therefore, it is written in verse 52 that all will be changed, in the wink of an eye, and at the last trump (seventh trump). When that seventh trump sounds, everyone on earth will be changed to an incorruptible body.

That doesn't have anything to do with your soul, or its condition. Your physical body and your spiritual body (soul) have nothing to do with the condition of one another. Your soul is your inner man that will exist in your current flesh body, and either at death or at the seventh trump, will be changed and enter into a new body (spirit body) which will not be subject to the decay this flesh body is subject to.

So, to understand what will occur in the Millennium age, you must understand that instantly following the seventh trump, all flesh bodies simply do not have life. Not one person will exist in the flesh. Every person will have the same capabilities and all will have the understanding to be taught without Satan's influence.

However, only those saints of God who have died in the flesh, or who lived and stood against Satan will take part in the first resurrection. By that I mean, will have an active part with Jesus Christ in His kingdom and reign, as he rules and teaches the earth for one thousand years, and live in their immortal soul bodies. (There will be those who stumble for a short time and bow to satan, but they will repent before the seventh trumpet. Daniel 11:34 and still be part of the first resurrection - because they repented prior to the end of this flesh age).

I Corinthians 15:53 "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

The word "mortal" as used here in the Greek manuscripts never applies to a physical body, but it applies to your soul. So we see our physical bodies are gone at the seventh trump, and the mortal (soul) must put on immortality. That soul becomes your existence in the Millennium age. When the time of judgment comes at the end of the Millennium, you will enter eternity with Christ, or you will cease to exist -- you will be destroyed. At that time even the memory of your existence will be eliminated. This is serious business, my friend, and you know it.

If you enter the Millennium with a mortal (liable to die) soul, by following the Antichrist in ignorance, you must be an overcomer in the Millennium, or your soul will not put on immortality, and it will die.

Revelation 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

We saw that those who took part in the first resurrection were those who died in the Lord, and those who did not yield to Satan, the Antichrist during his "one world" reign. Those who did not take the Antichrist's "mark of the beast", these are the blessed and holy ones. All of these people already will possess an immortal soul during the Millennium.

The "second death" is the second time of testing at the end of the Millennium age after Satan is released for a short season. The saints of Christ, and overcomers of the Antichrist's reign in this earth age of the flesh will not go through the second testing, or resurrection, with those mortal souls living in the Millennium age.

What are you going to do in the Millennium as a saint of Christ? You're going to be priests of God, and reign with Him. You are going to teach and oversee, and judge those mortal souls, as they will learn and follow all directives of our Lord Jesus Christ.

revelation20
 

Keraz

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On the first day of the Millennium age, the "Kingdom of Heaven" will be with us on earth. You cannot enter that kingdom age in a flesh body. Therefore, it is written in verse 52 that all will be changed, in the wink of an eye, and at the last trump (seventh trump). When that seventh trump sounds, everyone on earth will be changed to an incorruptible body.
It is perfectly plain that the change into immortality does not happen until the Great White Throne Judgment; AFTER the Millennium.
There WILL be death during the 1000 year reign of Jesus. Isaiah 65:20
Jesus Christ our Lord is returning with His saints to the earth.
Jesus does bring with Him the souls of those martyrs who were killed during the final 3 1/2 years before He Returns. They do not come back to life until after the Return. He is accompanied only by the angel army of heaven. Matthew 16:27, Revelation 19:14

I suggest that you study the scriptures more carefully before making incorrect assertions and posting error.
 

n2thelight

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It is perfectly plain that the change into immortality does not happen until the Great White Throne Judgment; AFTER the Millennium.
There WILL be death during the 1000 year reign of Jesus. Isaiah 65:20

Nooo,the change happens at the return of Christ,for ALL!!!The difference is were you in Christ when that change takes place.For those who were they take part in the first resurrection ,those that were not ,stand a chance to die the 2nd death.

No birth or death will happen during the millennium

I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall ALL be changed,"

Paul is now going to show us a mystery that deals with our generation, for a mystery is something that cannot be understood. However, when the details and clues of the mystery are know, then it is no longer a mystery. This mystery deals with a time when something is going to happen all over the earth to all flesh bodies, when these flesh bodies are not die anymore. Why will this be? Because all people living in their flesh bodies will be changed instantly from their flesh bodies, into their new incorruptible bodies. We have already established that each of us have two bodies, one is of the flesh, and the other body is a spiritual body that is within our flesh body. The spiritual body is not made alive or freed from the flesh body until the flesh body is done away with.

I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

The millennium is a time of teaching for all those that were deceived.
 

Keraz

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Nooo,the change happens at the return of Christ,for ALL!!!The difference is were you in Christ when that change takes place.For those who were they take part in the first resurrection ,those that were not ,stand a chance to die the 2nd death.

No birth or death will happen during the millennium

I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall ALL be changed,"
You have believed a lie. And you make wild and wonderful assertions about those fables.
Paul does not say when his prophecy in 1 Cor 15:50-56 takes place, but we do see in verse 24, that he is telling about the final wrap up, after the Millennium.

The ONLY humans that will be resurrected when Jesus Returns, will be the Trib martyrs. Rev 20:4 is quite clear about this.

Isaiah 65:20, is quoted by everyone as proof that there will be births and deaths during the Mill.
 
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OzSpen

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Perhaps a better response to the question would be: -

The saints who live during the time of the antichrist's reign.

Jay,

This is an excellent statement. In my study of Scripture and other Bible teachers, I've found there are 2 main views on 'tribulation saints':

  1. If you believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, then those who become committed to Christ during this horrendous Great Tribulation period, are the tribulation saints.
  2. Those who believe in a post-tribulation rapture support the view that all Christians who live through the Great Tribulation are the tribulation saints.
However, this topic opens up the need for another thread of pre-trib rapture vs post-trib rapture.

Oz
 

Davy

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It is perfectly plain that the change into immortality does not happen until the Great White Throne Judgment; AFTER the Millennium.
There WILL be death during the 1000 year reign of Jesus. Isaiah 65:20

Jesus does bring with Him the souls of those martyrs who were killed during the final 3 1/2 years before He Returns. They do not come back to life until after the Return. He is accompanied only by the angel army of heaven. Matthew 16:27, Revelation 19:14

I suggest that you study the scriptures more carefully before making incorrect assertions and posting error.

Per 1 Thess.4, Jesus brings the asleep saints with Him, and those are not the 'angels' you refer to.

Per Zechariah 14, Jesus brings all... the saints with Him when His feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem.

That has to mean that He gathers all His elect Church on His descent to Jerusalem, and brings them there with Him. So whether dead or alive, we apparently are going to make up part of His army there.
 

Davy

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Jay,

This is an excellent statement. In my study of Scripture and other Bible teachers, I've found there are 2 main views on 'tribulation saints':

  1. If you believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, then those who become committed to Christ during this horrendous Great Tribulation period, are the tribulation saints.
  2. Those who believe in a post-tribulation rapture support the view that all Christians who live through the Great Tribulation are the tribulation saints.
However, this topic opens up the need for another thread of pre-trib rapture vs post-trib rapture.

Oz

Sorry, but you're wrong.

Post-tribbers don't support no.2 either.

Christ's Church will go through the great tribulation like our Lord Jesus and His Apostles revealed in Scripture. Jesus commanded us to be on watch, even giving us the signs leading up to His return and His gathering of His Church on the last day of this world. Yet none of that means to coin some "tribulation saints" phrase to cover all those ideas, especially in light of how that phrase was coined by the pre-trib rapture school to apply to the unbelieving Jews who may come to Jesus during the trib.

And even with all that, such phrases are meaningless in light of The Bible Scripture, because it doesn't use such a term, nor does God's Word even reveal there will be unbelievers converting to Jesus 'during'... the great tribulation. Instead, God's Word reveals a sharp dividing line between the believers in Christ vs. the unbeliever during the coming tribulation. That is how many brethren are to be delivered up to give a Testimony for Jesus in that future time. One who doesn't believe on Jesus Christ certainly will not be one who is turned in and delivered up. Those will be deceived into believing on the coming Antichrist who will play Messiah.

Furthermore, God's Word does not... teach all-out-war and chaos for the coming time of great tribulation at the end of this world. Instead, God's Word teaches just the opposite, a time of world peace.

Matt 24:6-8
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

KJV

As long as wars and rumors of wars are going on, we are not to be troubled, because the end (i.e., tribulation) is not yet. That means the opposite of wars and rumors of wars is a time of PEACE (though a fake world peace).


1 Thess 5:2-3
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

KJV

That "day of the Lord" is the final day of this world, and is when that "sudden destruction" will come upon those who say that "Peace and safety" at the end.


So if the coming time of great tribulation our Lord Jesus forewarned us about is to be a time of all-out chaos and war, then why did He and Apostle Paul show us just the opposite for that time of the end???

Answer:
the Pre-trib Rapture spin-doctors designed the theory of all-out chaos and war for the tribulation to instill FEAR, as a SCARE TACTIC. It is designed to lead the deceived into accepting their false secret rapture theory. And then they throw all this, "Jesus loves you, He doesn't want you to suffer any wrath at all," type language at you that isn't even written in God's Word!


Matt 5:11
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for My sake.
KJV

Matt 10:38-39
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after Me, is not worthy of Me.
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for My sake shall find it.
KJV

Matt 16:24-26
24 Then said Jesus unto His disciples, If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for My sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
KJV

Mark 8:35
35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for My sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
KJV

Mark 13:12-13
12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
13 And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
KJV
 

Keraz

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Per 1 Thess.4, Jesus brings the asleep saints with Him, and those are not the 'angels' you refer to.

Per Zechariah 14, Jesus brings all... the saints with Him when His feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem.

That has to mean that He gathers all His elect Church on His descent to Jerusalem, and brings them there with Him. So whether dead or alive, we apparently are going to make up part of His army there.
Matthew 24:30-31 is clear: Jesus Returns, then He sends His angels to gather His people who have remained faithful thru all that happens before that Day.

The only saints He will bring with Him, will be the souls of those martyrs killed during the GT. Revelation 20:4

Get over your incredible idea of fighting at Armageddon! Jesus merely uses the Sword of His Word to dispose of the whole lot.
What we Christians will do, is to attend the wedding feast of the Lamb. Revelation 19:9
 

n2thelight

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You have believed a lie. And you make wild and wonderful assertions about those fables.
Paul does not say when his prophecy in 1 Cor 15:50-56 takes place, but we do see in verse 24, that he is telling about the final wrap up, after the Millennium.

The ONLY humans that will be resurrected when Jesus Returns, will be the Trib martyrs. Rev 20:4 is quite clear about this.

Isaiah 65:20, is quoted by everyone as proof that there will be births and deaths during the Mill.

I believe scripture and they don't lie,so let's break it down

Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of Our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

What clue should that give you?

I Corinthians 15:50 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

The above verses should show you when?In other words 1 corinth happens at the 7th trump,can't be any clearer

As for the resurrection ,please do a study on that word and apply it where needed